All Blacks vs England I
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Stats can be misleading, and I'm a Tele'a fan.
I would posit that Tele'a rarely beats a defender 1-on-1. In traffic he often beats 2-3 players in gaining under 10m of territory
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@Catogrande said in All Blacks vs England I:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs England I:
England should start Baby Face Nelson (ranga prop), Spencer and Finn Smith next week
Yes. No. No.
Baxter did very well for a debutant and steadied the scrum a bit which Marler was struggling to do. The other option is Bevan Road and his scrummaging has been found out time and again at test level. Baxter is a shoo-in for selection.
Spencer was sooo much slower than Mitchell and I can only think he was sent on to change the game into a more kick orientated affair but to me it was noticeable that NZ had more time to counter anything that England did once he was on. As good as he's been for Bath all season I just don't feel he has what it takes at this level. I'd prefer to see Randall as the back up.
Finn Smith is still finding his feet and has seemed a bit overawed playing test rugby. I think he has what it takes but it is not quite happening for him just yet. Marcus Smith did a lot of good stuff but those two missed sitters have blotted his copybook. I'd keep him as the starter and maybe have Slade as a back up place kicker if he effs up again.
I'd be tempted to start Finn Smith, who plays club with Mitchell, and save Marcus for when things open up later in match. I felt Earl was guilty of trying too much, although not sure who'd play 8 if he was saved for impact.
@pakman said in All Blacks vs England I:
@Catogrande said in All Blacks vs England I:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs England I:
England should start Baby Face Nelson (ranga prop), Spencer and Finn Smith next week
Yes. No. No.
Baxter did very well for a debutant and steadied the scrum a bit which Marler was struggling to do. The other option is Bevan Road and his scrummaging has been found out time and again at test level. Baxter is a shoo-in for selection.
Spencer was sooo much slower than Mitchell and I can only think he was sent on to change the game into a more kick orientated affair but to me it was noticeable that NZ had more time to counter anything that England did once he was on. As good as he's been for Bath all season I just don't feel he has what it takes at this level. I'd prefer to see Randall as the back up.
Finn Smith is still finding his feet and has seemed a bit overawed playing test rugby. I think he has what it takes but it is not quite happening for him just yet. Marcus Smith did a lot of good stuff but those two missed sitters have blotted his copybook. I'd keep him as the starter and maybe have Slade as a back up place kicker if he effs up again.
I'd be tempted to start Finn Smith, who plays club with Mitchell, and save Marcus for when things open up later in match. I felt Earl was guilty of trying too much, although not sure who'd play 8 if he was saved for impact.
I’m far less inclined to think that actually happens these days with how benches are used and how teams play.
Last Saturday I thought things actually got tighter in the latter parts of the match and the play was more narrow.
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@pakman said in All Blacks vs England I:
@Catogrande said in All Blacks vs England I:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs England I:
England should start Baby Face Nelson (ranga prop), Spencer and Finn Smith next week
Yes. No. No.
Baxter did very well for a debutant and steadied the scrum a bit which Marler was struggling to do. The other option is Bevan Road and his scrummaging has been found out time and again at test level. Baxter is a shoo-in for selection.
Spencer was sooo much slower than Mitchell and I can only think he was sent on to change the game into a more kick orientated affair but to me it was noticeable that NZ had more time to counter anything that England did once he was on. As good as he's been for Bath all season I just don't feel he has what it takes at this level. I'd prefer to see Randall as the back up.
Finn Smith is still finding his feet and has seemed a bit overawed playing test rugby. I think he has what it takes but it is not quite happening for him just yet. Marcus Smith did a lot of good stuff but those two missed sitters have blotted his copybook. I'd keep him as the starter and maybe have Slade as a back up place kicker if he effs up again.
I'd be tempted to start Finn Smith, who plays club with Mitchell, and save Marcus for when things open up later in match. I felt Earl was guilty of trying too much, although not sure who'd play 8 if he was saved for impact.
I’m far less inclined to think that actually happens these days with how benches are used and how teams play.
Last Saturday I thought things actually got tighter in the latter parts of the match and the play was more narrow.
@ACT-Crusader because Marcus wasn't on and NZ replaced their fullback with a carthorse. Duh.
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@pakman said in All Blacks vs England I:
@Catogrande said in All Blacks vs England I:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs England I:
England should start Baby Face Nelson (ranga prop), Spencer and Finn Smith next week
Yes. No. No.
Baxter did very well for a debutant and steadied the scrum a bit which Marler was struggling to do. The other option is Bevan Road and his scrummaging has been found out time and again at test level. Baxter is a shoo-in for selection.
Spencer was sooo much slower than Mitchell and I can only think he was sent on to change the game into a more kick orientated affair but to me it was noticeable that NZ had more time to counter anything that England did once he was on. As good as he's been for Bath all season I just don't feel he has what it takes at this level. I'd prefer to see Randall as the back up.
Finn Smith is still finding his feet and has seemed a bit overawed playing test rugby. I think he has what it takes but it is not quite happening for him just yet. Marcus Smith did a lot of good stuff but those two missed sitters have blotted his copybook. I'd keep him as the starter and maybe have Slade as a back up place kicker if he effs up again.
I'd be tempted to start Finn Smith, who plays club with Mitchell, and save Marcus for when things open up later in match. I felt Earl was guilty of trying too much, although not sure who'd play 8 if he was saved for impact.
I’m far less inclined to think that actually happens these days with how benches are used and how teams play.
Last Saturday I thought things actually got tighter in the latter parts of the match and the play was more narrow.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs England I:
@pakman said in All Blacks vs England I:
@Catogrande said in All Blacks vs England I:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs England I:
England should start Baby Face Nelson (ranga prop), Spencer and Finn Smith next week
Yes. No. No.
Baxter did very well for a debutant and steadied the scrum a bit which Marler was struggling to do. The other option is Bevan Road and his scrummaging has been found out time and again at test level. Baxter is a shoo-in for selection.
Spencer was sooo much slower than Mitchell and I can only think he was sent on to change the game into a more kick orientated affair but to me it was noticeable that NZ had more time to counter anything that England did once he was on. As good as he's been for Bath all season I just don't feel he has what it takes at this level. I'd prefer to see Randall as the back up.
Finn Smith is still finding his feet and has seemed a bit overawed playing test rugby. I think he has what it takes but it is not quite happening for him just yet. Marcus Smith did a lot of good stuff but those two missed sitters have blotted his copybook. I'd keep him as the starter and maybe have Slade as a back up place kicker if he effs up again.
I'd be tempted to start Finn Smith, who plays club with Mitchell, and save Marcus for when things open up later in match. I felt Earl was guilty of trying too much, although not sure who'd play 8 if he was saved for impact.
I’m far less inclined to think that actually happens these days with how benches are used and how teams play.
Last Saturday I thought things actually got tighter in the latter parts of the match and the play was more narrow.
That’s the theory, but grant you it didn’t happen on Saturday.
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Telea is a very useful player, he doesn't have the top end pace to score long range tries, but he's extremely dangerous when close to the line and causes defenses real headaches. I think we need Clarke on the left though, hopefully he gets picked when fit again, he's a special player and his power gives us a point of difference in the back three.
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@Daffy-Jaffy didn't feel like he gained a lot of ground when doing so, would be interesting to see that stat.
@Bones said in All Blacks vs England I:
@Daffy-Jaffy didn't feel like he gained a lot of ground when doing so, would be interesting to see that stat.
Last season he was on the end of few longer range opportunities that had him beating multiple defenders in a single run, plus his closer in work. So not surprised by these stats.
What was surprising on Saturday was that there were at least 2 or 3 opportunities where I thought we could’ve seen one of those runs, but it didn’t happen.
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@Daffy-Jaffy didn't feel like he gained a lot of ground when doing so, would be interesting to see that stat.
@Bones said in All Blacks vs England I:
@Daffy-Jaffy didn't feel like he gained a lot of ground when doing so, would be interesting to see that stat.
I think some of it is due to his workrate, he's not afraid of getting in close to the ruck and picking and going or having a one-off run where he beats a few defenders so gets a few "beaten defenders" that other outside backs who never get close to the ruck don't get.
I understand where you and others are coming form in that he does seem to beat a lot of defenders without gaining a great deal of meters. I would think that's mainly the "fault" for want of a better word of the AB attack pattern which can't seem to get the ball to him in space and he's continually weaving his way through traffic.
So instead of getting the ball in space and weaving his way past wingers and fullbacks he's basically side-stepping the incoming cover defence, which then leads him back inside into even more cover defence so beating a couple of defenders doesn't gain you much. And that's not his fault and he does really well in the limited space he has, I'd just love to see him get a lot more space and time and have more 1:1 instead of 1:5 oppertunities.
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs England I:
@Daffy-Jaffy didn't feel like he gained a lot of ground when doing so, would be interesting to see that stat.
I think some of it is due to his workrate, he's not afraid of getting in close to the ruck and picking and going or having a one-off run where he beats a few defenders so gets a few "beaten defenders" that other outside backs who never get close to the ruck don't get.
I understand where you and others are coming form in that he does seem to beat a lot of defenders without gaining a great deal of meters. I would think that's mainly the "fault" for want of a better word of the AB attack pattern which can't seem to get the ball to him in space and he's continually weaving his way through traffic.
So instead of getting the ball in space and weaving his way past wingers and fullbacks he's basically side-stepping the incoming cover defence, which then leads him back inside into even more cover defence so beating a couple of defenders doesn't gain you much. And that's not his fault and he does really well in the limited space he has, I'd just love to see him get a lot more space and time and have more 1:1 instead of 1:5 oppertunities.
@Windows97 said in All Blacks vs England I:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs England I:
@Daffy-Jaffy didn't feel like he gained a lot of ground when doing so, would be interesting to see that stat.
I think some of it is due to his workrate, he's not afraid of getting in close to the ruck and picking and going or having a one-off run where he beats a few defenders so gets a few "beaten defenders" that other outside backs who never get close to the ruck don't get.
I understand where you and others are coming form in that he does seem to beat a lot of defenders without gaining a great deal of meters. I would think that's mainly the "fault" for want of a better word of the AB attack pattern which can't seem to get the ball to him in space and he's continually weaving his way through traffic.
So instead of getting the ball in space and weaving his way past wingers and fullbacks he's basically side-stepping the incoming cover defence, which then leads him back inside into even more cover defence so beating a couple of defenders doesn't gain you much. And that's not his fault and he does really well in the limited space he has, I'd just love to see him get a lot more space and time and have more 1:1 instead of 1:5 oppertunities.
He was put in to outside space in the First test but didn't have the pace to sustain the outside break so got run down pretty easily.
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Clarke getting involved in close and simply using his power to go straight ahead should be just as effective as Telea's jinking in close.
Add to that, Clarke is quicker and better under the high ball.@Frank said in All Blacks vs England I:
Clarke getting involved in clase and simply using his power to go straight ahead should be just as effective as Telea's jinking in close.
Add to that, Clarke is quicker and better under the high ball.better balance with a Reece and Clarke combo for me.
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I skimmed through the stats.. A lot of things more or less even
England had to make a lot more tackles (198 v 109). Despite that the carry metres were similar (NZ 337m v 332m)
Some of the carry stats
NZ Eng carries_metres 337m 332m carry_dominant 44 30 carry_ineffective 3 7 carry_neutral 94 47 ruck_over_gainline_percent 33% 45% ruck_speed 0-3secs 73 34 ruck_speed 0-3secs % 62% 45% So we got plenty of ball & lots of it quick. However England stopped us making much ground
Looking at the dominant carries it's interesting how many of them were from backs:
Both teams weren't great on defence, only 77% for NZ and 76% for England. I would hope that is about learning a new system.
@Duluth said in All Blacks vs England I:
Both teams weren't great on defence, only 77% for NZ and 76% for England. I would hope that is about learning a new system.
After getting around to reading this thread this is the point I hadn't seen mentioned at all. Plenty on here criticised the AB defensive system under McLeod but I wasn't that impressed as the ABs still conceded easy metres to the opposition. There were some bad one-on-one misses.
Ellison has a lot to prove.
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Telea is a very useful player, he doesn't have the top end pace to score long range tries, but he's extremely dangerous when close to the line and causes defenses real headaches. I think we need Clarke on the left though, hopefully he gets picked when fit again, he's a special player and his power gives us a point of difference in the back three.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs England I:
Telea is a very useful player, he doesn't have the top end pace to score long range tries, but he's extremely dangerous when close to the line and causes defenses real headaches. I think we need Clarke on the left though, hopefully he gets picked when fit again, he's a special player and his power gives us a point of difference in the back three.
Is Caleb not available for selection?
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs England I:
Telea is a very useful player, he doesn't have the top end pace to score long range tries, but he's extremely dangerous when close to the line and causes defenses real headaches. I think we need Clarke on the left though, hopefully he gets picked when fit again, he's a special player and his power gives us a point of difference in the back three.
Is Caleb not available for selection?
@darylmitchell good question, I haven't seen who is injured, I was wondering if Blackadder is also not fit yet.
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@darylmitchell good question, I haven't seen who is injured, I was wondering if Blackadder is also not fit yet.
@No-Quarter you said he's not fit in your post, that's why I asked.
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@No-Quarter you said he's not fit in your post, that's why I asked.
@darylmitchell Ah, yeah, he wasn't available for selection for the first test as he was injured. I haven't heard anything more on that.
