Euro 2024
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I think part of the hype is related to the English fans, especially, and media putting the EPL on such a pedestal. This means that the abilities of the English players are often inflated relative to players from other leagues/nationalities. How many would have heard of Fabián Ruiz or Mikel Oyarzabal before the Euros?
@Bovidae This.
The other thing is the foreign influence of managers in the EPL compared to other nations. Playing under guys like Klopp, Pep, Arteta etc guys who get their teams pressing with intent (especially Klopp) and moving the ball quickly, moving into pockets, playing between the lines, playing in different roles with completely different formations, playing from the back where their keepers are expected to play as playmaker too, to then playing almost an Italian style of play under Southgate where defence and closing up the middle of the park is more of a priority. Not quite catenaccio, but not what these players are used to. It's the problem where you have no good English managers. Who's the best English manager? Howe? Followed by someone who's probably the last of a dying breed where he plays stone age League 1 football in the EPL Sean Dyche lol.
The Spanish, Germans etc always play under their own managers, hence the easier transition from club to international level, where the style of play doesn't differ too much to what they are used to.
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I can't see Klopp or Guardiola doing it - Klopp might do Germany but even then not sure he can imbue the Klopp approach with so little time. Pep wouldn't be able to cope without having full control over his players imho.
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@MiketheSnow The one caveat to that is it is much, much easier to qualify for tournaments these days. Euro's was only 4 teams until 1980 and then 8 until 1996. WC was only 16 until 1982.
It's why Italy's repeated failures are so damning.
QF's mean you're a Top 8 Nation. For England that's about right. Southgate has definitely led England through a period where they over-achieved when measured against their historical norm. The great unknown is whether they could/ would have done better under a different Manager, especially when as is now being seen there aren't many alternatives.
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@mariner4life I think this tean has been massively hyped. Certainly pre-tournament, not so much once they started playing.
Not as much as the 'Golden Generation' teams but I've followed England in tournaments since 1980 and this one was definitely favoured by most. Not just the tabloids but almost every media outlet / blog/ pod whatever in England and elsewhere had them one of the top two favourites. Certainly much more so than Spain.
I do think most of the 'big' teams failed to deliver.
Italy were shite but that should have been expected.
Portugal would have almost certainly been better off without Ronaldo.
Germany did better than expected
France were woeful
Netherlands probably over-performed - not much was expected of them pre-tournament
England were a curates egg. They made the final but that was in line with most expectations. Anything less than a semi-final would have been a massive underachievement. The younger players in the main did really well, the more established super stars; not so much. Foden, Bellingham, Rice and especially Kane failed to live up to expectations. They bumbled and stumbled their way to the final, where they were outplayed but still in it with 5 minutes to play.
Spain, Switzerland, Slovakia, Georgia, Austria, Turkey exceeded expectations. Slovakia and Georgia massively so. I didn't anticipate them getting out of their groups although they did do so as 3rd place gettersNot as much as the 'Golden Generation' teams but I've followed England in tournaments since 1980 and this one was definitely favoured by most. Not just the tabloids but almost every media outlet / blog/ pod whatever in England and elsewhere had them one of the top two favourites. Certainly much more so than Spain.
My first England tournament was Mexico 1970 as the World Cup holders. I reckon that puts me right in the sweet spot for the maximum years of hurt possible (54) given that losing that quarter-final to West Germany 3-2 after being 2-0 up was when the hurt started. That 1970 team was probably the best England have had relative to the rest of the world.
These were the NZ TAB odds for the Euros just before it started
England 4.33
France 4.50
Germany 5.50
Portugal 8.00
Spain 8.00
Italy 16.00
Belgium 17.00
Netherlands 17.00
Croatia 34.00
Denmark 41.00
Austria 51.00
Serbia 67.00
Switzerland 67.00
Turkey 67.00
Ukraine 67.00
Hungary 81.00
Czech Republic 101
Scotland 101
Poland 151
Romania 151
Slovenia 201
Albania 251
Slovakia 251
Georgia 501 -
Not as much as the 'Golden Generation' teams but I've followed England in tournaments since 1980 and this one was definitely favoured by most. Not just the tabloids but almost every media outlet / blog/ pod whatever in England and elsewhere had them one of the top two favourites. Certainly much more so than Spain.
My first England tournament was Mexico 1970 as the World Cup holders. I reckon that puts me right in the sweet spot for the maximum years of hurt possible (54) given that losing that quarter-final to West Germany 3-2 after being 2-0 up was when the hurt started. That 1970 team was probably the best England have had relative to the rest of the world.
These were the NZ TAB odds for the Euros just before it started
England 4.33
France 4.50
Germany 5.50
Portugal 8.00
Spain 8.00
Italy 16.00
Belgium 17.00
Netherlands 17.00
Croatia 34.00
Denmark 41.00
Austria 51.00
Serbia 67.00
Switzerland 67.00
Turkey 67.00
Ukraine 67.00
Hungary 81.00
Czech Republic 101
Scotland 101
Poland 151
Romania 151
Slovenia 201
Albania 251
Slovakia 251
Georgia 501 -
Anthony Gordon getting 4 minutes playing time the entire Euros just about sums Southgate up.
Well done on him knowing when it's time to step down. A lot of coaches and managers try and hang on too long. He did a nice job - he's 'the guy before the guy' as they say.
England are well set up to be a real contender at the World Cup if they can nail the manager hire.
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Odds for next England manager
Graham Potter 2/1 (English, ex Brighton and Chelsea)
Eddie Howe 5/1 (English, Newcastle)
Lee Carsley 6/1 (Irish, England Under 21s)
Maurico Pochettino 8/1 (Argentine, ex- Southampton, Spurs, PSG and Chelsea)
Thomas Tuchel 12/1 (German, ex-PSG, Chelsea and Bayern Munich)
Frank Lampard 20-1 (English, ex-Chelsea and Everton)
Jurgen Klopp 20-1 (German, ex-Liverpool)
Pep Guardiola 20-1 (Basque, Man City, ex-Barcelona and Bayern Munich)
Odds for next England manager
Graham Potter 2/1 (English, ex Brighton and Chelsea)
Eddie Howe 5/1 (English, Newcastle)
Lee Carsley 6/1 (Irish, England Under 21s)
Maurico Pochettino 8/1 (Argentine, ex- Southampton, Spurs, PSG and Chelsea)
Thomas Tuchel 12/1 (German, ex-PSG, Chelsea and Bayern Munich)
Frank Lampard 20-1 (English, ex-Chelsea and Everton)
Jurgen Klopp 20-1 (German, ex-Liverpool)
Pep Guardiola 20-1 (Basque, Man City, ex-Barcelona and Bayern Munich)
Potter couldn't handle pressure at Chelsea
Howe he and Potter both get very tetchy with media. Getting them (in the main) onside has been one of Southgates achievements. Both he and Potter are really only in contention because they're English CV's are pretty thin
Carsley - Sounds like a Southgate 2.1 type of appointment
Poch - well he'd unleash the attacking qualities but unconvinced
Tuchel - Wouldn't be able to handle the politics
Lampard - FUCK OFF
Klopp - Doesn't want it
Pep - As @KP said too hands on detail driven for a limited role like National coach -
Odds for next England manager
Graham Potter 2/1 (English, ex Brighton and Chelsea)
Eddie Howe 5/1 (English, Newcastle)
Lee Carsley 6/1 (Irish, England Under 21s)
Maurico Pochettino 8/1 (Argentine, ex- Southampton, Spurs, PSG and Chelsea)
Thomas Tuchel 12/1 (German, ex-PSG, Chelsea and Bayern Munich)
Frank Lampard 20-1 (English, ex-Chelsea and Everton)
Jurgen Klopp 20-1 (German, ex-Liverpool)
Pep Guardiola 20-1 (Basque, Man City, ex-Barcelona and Bayern Munich)
Potter couldn't handle pressure at Chelsea
Howe he and Potter both get very tetchy with media. Getting them (in the main) onside has been one of Southgates achievements. Both he and Potter are really only in contention because they're English CV's are pretty thin
Carsley - Sounds like a Southgate 2.1 type of appointment
Poch - well he'd unleash the attacking qualities but unconvinced
Tuchel - Wouldn't be able to handle the politics
Lampard - FUCK OFF
Klopp - Doesn't want it
Pep - As @KP said too hands on detail driven for a limited role like National coach -
Isnt Eddie locked up with Newcastle until something like 2027? sounds more like a wish from the media than an actual choice
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@dogmeat I agree with you on Eddie Howe and Graham Potter. I suspect it will be Frank Lampard. He really wants the job and is on good terms with senior people at the FA.
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Pretty good record. The game they play is pretty dire, but I think that is in the English DNA for a number of sports? Southgate favours toilers and athletes over X factor guys like Maddison (admittedly out of form since injury) and Grealish. I can recall the same mindset applied to Glenn Hoddle back in the day as well
Pretty good record. The game they play is pretty dire, but I think that is in the English DNA for a number of sports? Southgate favours toilers and athletes over X factor guys like Maddison (admittedly out of form since injury) and Grealish. I can recall the same mindset applied to Glenn Hoddle back in the day as well
I reckon this is a bad take. A 'Cullen at centre' kind of take. Drop those carthorses like Bellingham and Foden for Maddison?
Or move him to centreback?
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@KiwiPie I vaguely remember 1970 but didn't follow it as such.
More for thisFollowed WC's since 74
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On Southgate and the luck he has had with the draw in major tournaments - these are the pre tournament odds of the teams he has faced in all of the knockout rounds from 2018. (P) = match went to penalties, (L) = match was lost. Not posting this to diminish his achievement, just to point out that whoever gets the job will be expected to win the whole thing based on reaching 2 finals in the past but it doesn't really reflect how good England have been,
Colombia (P) 31
Sweden 81
Croatia (L) 31Germany 8
Ukraine 76
Denmark 23
Italy (L)(P) 9Senegal 126
France (L) 8Slovakia 251
Switzerland (P) 67
Netherlands 17
Spain (L) 8 -
On Southgate and the luck he has had with the draw in major tournaments - these are the pre tournament odds of the teams he has faced in all of the knockout rounds from 2018. (P) = match went to penalties, (L) = match was lost. Not posting this to diminish his achievement, just to point out that whoever gets the job will be expected to win the whole thing based on reaching 2 finals in the past but it doesn't really reflect how good England have been,
Colombia (P) 31
Sweden 81
Croatia (L) 31Germany 8
Ukraine 76
Denmark 23
Italy (L)(P) 9Senegal 126
France (L) 8Slovakia 251
Switzerland (P) 67
Netherlands 17
Spain (L) 8@KiwiPie His teams still had to beat them.
For/against Southgate has become a weird sort of culture war in England with people having very fixed positions. But let me try to offer some sort of balanced analysis.
Clearly, he ranks highly among England managers for taking them to two finals and to a World Cup Semi Final and a World Cup Quarter Final. He also changed the culture of the national team, taught the players to be more likeable and got the English nation behind their team again after a series of poor tournaments from 2006 to 2016. In the ranking of England manager's, Gareth Southgate is second only to Sir Alf Ramsey.
But he can't be seen as a great international manager as his sides never won a tournament, nor did they play consistently entertaining or dominant football.
For all Southgate's gifts as a motivator, a unifier of teams and in winning over the media, his tactics were overly defensive and never utilised all of the talents available.
A very decent man, an excellent man manager and very good at front of house, if a limited strategist and a dull tactician.
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On Southgate and the luck he has had with the draw in major tournaments - these are the pre tournament odds of the teams he has faced in all of the knockout rounds from 2018. (P) = match went to penalties, (L) = match was lost. Not posting this to diminish his achievement, just to point out that whoever gets the job will be expected to win the whole thing based on reaching 2 finals in the past but it doesn't really reflect how good England have been,
Colombia (P) 31
Sweden 81
Croatia (L) 31Germany 8
Ukraine 76
Denmark 23
Italy (L)(P) 9Senegal 126
France (L) 8Slovakia 251
Switzerland (P) 67
Netherlands 17
Spain (L) 8
