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Absolutely
She’ll never get a Damehood
But she should
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“I am heartbroken. I was told a lot of times that I was a warrior but I preferred to stop for my health. I have never felt a punch like this. After the second blow to the nose, I couldn’t breathe any more. I went to my coach and said ‘enough’. It could have been the match of a lifetime, but I had to preserve my life as well in that moment.”
Males have higher bone density than females, among a host of other advantages, even with DSD as they still had elevated levels of testosterone during puberty. It's self evident that a male punching a female will do more damage than a male punching a male. In a combat sport I just cannot believe they have allowed it, the science on this and also trans women is clear and easy to understand.
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@No-Quarter said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
In a combat sport I just cannot believe they have allowed it, the science on this and also trans women is clear and easy to understand.
this goes into the 'gnarly' camp though. This is not trans-related. This is about where the blurry line between male and female with intersex cuts off. The fighter has XY chromosomes.
I don't have an answer for that, but it appears the IOC line (passport gender) is not the same as the combat sports governing body line.
This sucks for basically everyone. Someone is going to lose, and it is going to be shitty
Edit: ignore me, brainfart. XX = female, not XY.
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Great, now we get three days of 'what is a woman' chat featuring some of the dumbest people you've ever seen voicing their opinions on boxing, a sport they have never watched.
More than happy to sit out of it and check back in if/when you've all come to a resolution.
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@nzzp it's not a blurry line at all. You are either male (XY) with DSD (Differences of sex development) or you are female (XX) with DSD. The males with DSD should absolutely never be competing in the women's sports categories.
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@No-Quarter right you are.
Brain fade - I thought XY was female. Will edit post.
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@barbarian I hadn't caught up with this thread so went and posted in the one in the Politics forum, I think that's the best place for it, should try to keep this one as a celebration of all of the other deserving athletes at the games.
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@No-Quarter said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
Letting males with DSD compete against biological women is just insane. When the hell will this madness end.
Words fail me on this one. The fact this farce was even sanctioned is just shameful.
Of course JK will get ripped apart by rabid trans folk accusing her of all sorts of horrific prejudices. Standard.
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Allowing them to compete in some female sports is one thing , but combat sports is on another level of sickening for the majority .
What I do find interesting, the most vocal people against this appear to be men if the internet is anything to go by , because most decent men know there is nothing more cowardly than hitting a woman , but the feminists are quiet.
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@kiwiinmelb said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
Allowing them to compete in some female sports is one thing , but combat sports is on another level of sickening for the majority .
What I do find interesting, the most vocal people against this appear to be men if the internet is anything to go by , because most decent men know there is nothing more cowardly than hitting a woman , but the feminists are quiet.
Yeah at least in the 100 metres or weightlifting ( thanks heaps for putting us on the map there Laurel ) nothing gets hurt but pride.
This is another thing entirely and potentially fucken dangerous.
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@MajorRage said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
So it turns out this Algerian competitor is not trans, but has XY chromosomes ...
I'm not touching this debate again.
Worth noting that there's been very few facts offered in this debate, just shit slinging from both sides.
The competitor was banned by the IBC - a notoriously corrupt organisation - but not by the IOC. There's been no evidence provided about the chromosome make-up of the competitor.
I do think it's entirely unfair to label the competitor as a man, however. There are intricacies to this debate that seem to have been overlooked by the masses (on both sides) in favour of fear-mongering.
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@Mr-Fish said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorRage said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
So it turns out this Algerian competitor is not trans, but has XY chromosomes ...
I'm not touching this debate again.
Worth noting that there's been very few facts offered in this debate, just shit slinging from both sides.
So facts such as "banned from competing in the world champs due to failing a sex test" don't count?
But I guess that corrupt IBC just faked the chromosome and testostone tests...
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@antipodean said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
I can't be bothered watching any of it (I just read a details of medal won). Its a bad joke now and ewatching in effect gives it the thumbs up. Just like placing two drink bottles in this way
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@Windows97 said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Mr-Fish said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorRage said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
So it turns out this Algerian competitor is not trans, but has XY chromosomes ...
I'm not touching this debate again.
Worth noting that there's been very few facts offered in this debate, just shit slinging from both sides.
So facts such as "banned from competing in the world champs due to failing a sex test" don't count?
But I guess that corrupt IBC just faked the chromosome and testostone tests...
One man (IBA SG and CEO George Yerolimpos) made the initial decision to ban two athletes without following any sort of due process. It's impossible to know whether any proper procedure was later followed - although by the IBA's own admission, they did not have a 'clear procedure on gender testing'.
Notably, Yerolimpos was removed from his post just a month after the IBA World Boxing Championships.
So I'm suggesting that maybe the whole thing isn't quite as clear cut as some believe it to be There is a huge number of questions that need answering before starting a witch hunt.
According to the IBA, "the athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination but were subject to a separate and recognized test, whereby the specifics remain confidential. This test conclusively indicated that both athletes did not meet the required necessary eligibility criteria and were found to have competitive advantages over other female competitors."
I don't know what these tests conducted were nor what the eligibility criteria are - I presume no one in the public does? But the fact that different international sporting bodies have different criteria suggests it's not so clear cut - especially when there's not an awful lot of transparency (although there are undoubtedly legitimate privacy reasons for this lack of transparency, so it's a bit of a catch-22).
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@Mr-Fish a top athlete stopped the fight on their own accord due to a very real fear for her life. It's not unreasonable to suggest that further blows like that from a biological male would have done permanent damage to her. That's not fear mongering, that's living in the real world.
Sporting bodies haven't really had to deal with males wanting to compete in women's sports much in the past so they (by their own admission) don't have great procedures in place. It's the current trans movement that has led to male DSDs and trans women deciding they can compete in women's sports, and it's up to the sporting bodies to set clear boundaries based on scientific observation, which is that anyone that goes through puberty with normal male levels of testosterone has a huge advantage across the board. When it comes to combat sports, it becomes even more serious.
It is unfathomable that the Olympics has allowed this to happen. I hope this is a wakeup call and they (and any other sporting body that allows this) set clear boundaries before someone gets seriously hurt or killed.
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@No-Quarter said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Mr-Fish a top athlete stopped the fight on their own accord due to a very real fear for her life. It's not unreasonable to suggest that further blows like that from a biological male would have done permanent damage to her. That's not fear mongering, that's living in the real world.
Sporting bodies haven't really had to deal with males wanting to compete in women's sports much in the past so they (by their own admission) don't have great procedures in place. It's the current trans movement that has led to male DSDs and trans women deciding they can compete in women's sports, and it's up to the sporting bodies to set clear boundaries based on scientific observation, which is that anyone that goes through puberty with normal male levels of testosterone has a huge advantage across the board. When it comes to combat sports, it becomes even more serious.
It is unfathomable that the Olympics has allowed this to happen. I hope this is a wakeup call and they (and any other sporting body that allows this) set clear boundaries before someone gets seriously hurt or killed.
That's all fair but I do think there's the possibility you are overlooking a few things.
1/ The athlete under the spotlight, Imane Khelif, has faced plenty of opponents in the past who have raised no such concerns. Khelif has lost plenty of fights too. That doesn't mean she doesn't have an inherent advantage by any stretch, but it does suggest that maybe the Khelif isn't as powerful or dangerous as a lot of people have been suggesting. If Khelif is a danger to other fighters but she isn't the most powerful fighter in the world, then surely those other athletes are more dangerous and should also be banned (if the primary concern is safety).
2/ By all accounts, Khelif is outwardly a female (and has been since birth), so she's likely female with a DSD 'at worst'.
3/ Most of what's being spread is complete hearsay, so it's not like it's possible to have a proper debate when the facts simply aren't known.
I will probably refrain from saying any more on the matter because, to be frank, I don't know a lot about the situation and I'm certainly not an expert on any of the science behind it - and that's really all that matters. The experts should be making a call, it shouldn't be up to people with 50% of the information and 10% of the knowledge making decisions and casting very hurtful aspersions online - but maybe that's the bleeding heart liberal in me.
Transgender debate, in sport, in general
