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@No-Quarter said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Mr-Fish a top athlete stopped the fight on their own accord due to a very real fear for her life. It's not unreasonable to suggest that further blows like that from a biological male would have done permanent damage to her. That's not fear mongering, that's living in the real world.
Sporting bodies haven't really had to deal with males wanting to compete in women's sports much in the past so they (by their own admission) don't have great procedures in place. It's the current trans movement that has led to male DSDs and trans women deciding they can compete in women's sports, and it's up to the sporting bodies to set clear boundaries based on scientific observation, which is that anyone that goes through puberty with normal male levels of testosterone has a huge advantage across the board. When it comes to combat sports, it becomes even more serious.
It is unfathomable that the Olympics has allowed this to happen. I hope this is a wakeup call and they (and any other sporting body that allows this) set clear boundaries before someone gets seriously hurt or killed.
That's all fair but I do think there's the possibility you are overlooking a few things.
1/ The athlete under the spotlight, Imane Khelif, has faced plenty of opponents in the past who have raised no such concerns. Khelif has lost plenty of fights too. That doesn't mean she doesn't have an inherent advantage by any stretch, but it does suggest that maybe the Khelif isn't as powerful or dangerous as a lot of people have been suggesting. If Khelif is a danger to other fighters but she isn't the most powerful fighter in the world, then surely those other athletes are more dangerous and should also be banned (if the primary concern is safety).
2/ By all accounts, Khelif is outwardly a female (and has been since birth), so she's likely female with a DSD 'at worst'.
3/ Most of what's being spread is complete hearsay, so it's not like it's possible to have a proper debate when the facts simply aren't known.
I will probably refrain from saying any more on the matter because, to be frank, I don't know a lot about the situation and I'm certainly not an expert on any of the science behind it - and that's really all that matters. The experts should be making a call, it shouldn't be up to people with 50% of the information and 10% of the knowledge making decisions and casting very hurtful aspersions online - but maybe that's the bleeding heart liberal in me.
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My understanding after delving is the female athlete with XX chromosomes but heightened testosterone failed the testosterone test but has still been allowed to compete at this Olympics Games
Is that too simplistic?
Is it correct? -
I have mixed feelings on this and know bugger all about this particular incident, but I will always remember reading something years ago about females being tested before Olympic games. I think it was Belinda Caldwell that said the test is absolutely terrifying because what if the test came back saying she wasn't 'female' enough.
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@MiketheSnow said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
My understanding after delving is the female athlete with XX chromosomes but heightened testosterone failed the testosterone test but has still been allowed to compete at this Olympics Games
Is that too simplistic?
Is it correct?I'm not sure which tests she's failed but as I mentioned above, the IBA have explicitly said "the athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination but were subject to a separate and recognized test, whereby the specifics remain confidential. This test conclusively indicated that both athletes did not meet the required necessary eligibility criteria and were found to have competitive advantages over other female competitors."
I believe the suggestion (which there's currently no clear evidence for) is she has an XY chromosome - which by some definitions would make her a man. But there are women with XY chromosomes who can naturally get pregnant and give birth - I suspect a lot of people would struggle with the suggestion that a man could get pregnant. So it's a grey area.
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And just to your earlier comment about taking the word of the IBA because they're an international sports body @Windows97...
From this article: https://apnews.com/article/olympics-2024-boxing-gender-4b6eb881cce9c34484d30c68ad979127
"The IOC is in charge of boxing in Paris because it has revoked the Olympic status of the IBA following years of governance problems, a lack of financial transparency and many perceived instances of corruption in judging and refereeing.
The IBA is controlled by president Umar Kremlev, who is Russian. He brought in Russian state-owned Gazprom as its primary sponsor and moved much of the IBA’s operations to Russia.
The IBA has since lost more than three dozen members who have formed a new group called World Boxing, which hopes to be recognized by the IOC as the sport’s governing body ahead of the 2028 Los Angeles Games.
The IBA has aggressively seized on the two boxers’ presence in Paris to criticize the IOC. After the Court of Arbitration for Sport upheld the IOC’s ban earlier this year, the IBA appealed to the Swiss Federal Tribunal in a last-gasp attempt to beat the IOC.
The banned body issued a statement Wednesday in which it claimed both boxers did not have a “testosterone examination” last year but were “subject to a separate and recognized test” for their disqualification. The IBA said the test’s “specifics remain confidential,” refusing to explain it.
The IBA disregarded IOC recommendations and allowed Russian fighters to compete at the 2023 world championships under the Russian flag. The governing body then disqualified Khelif only after Khelif defeated Russian boxer Azalia Amineva during the tournament."
All of which is to say there are some reasonable concerns about their legitimacy.
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@Mr-Fish said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
By all accounts, Khelif is outwardly a female (and has been since birth), so she's likely female with a DSD 'at worst'.
Is that an actual fact or is he hiding a gun in his pocket?
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Why would you need a testosterone examination when you can determine if there's a Y chromosome?
I don't know the specifics, but the fact the IBA Secretary General and CEO alone made a determination isn't a problem for me either when the CAS can and does make determinations with only a Sole Arbitrator. If the IOC didn't like the IBC's governance, that should've been addressed.
But if this is a picture of the athlete in question, I know what side of this particular argument I'm coming down on.
And a little more scientific:
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@antipodean said in Transgender debate,
in sport, in general:Why would you need a testosterone examination when you can determine if there's a Y chromosome?
I don't know the specifics, but the fact the IBA Secretary General and CEO alone made a determination isn't a problem for me either when the CAS can and does make determinations with only a Sole Arbitrator. If the IOC didn't like the IBC's governance, that should've been addressed.
But if this is a picture of the athlete in question, I know what side of this particular argument I'm coming down on.
And a little more scientific:
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@antipodean said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
Why would you need a testosterone examination when you can determine if there's a Y chromosome?
I don't know the specifics, but the fact the IBA Secretary General and CEO alone made a determination isn't a problem for me either when the CAS can and does make determinations with only a Sole Arbitrator. If the IOC didn't like the IBC's governance, that should've been addressed.
But if this is a picture of the athlete in question, I know what side of this particular argument I'm coming down on.
And a little more scientific:
Pretty sure that’s Daniel Ricciardo
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From the IBA press conference:
Both boxers were initially subjected to a chromosomal test by an independent laboratory in Istanbul after the IBA received complaints from coaches and competitors during the 2022 Women's World Boxing Championships.
*Both boxers were re-tested in India again during the 2023 Women's World Boxing Championships to clarify and confirm prior results.
*Both boxers were found to have XY chromosomes.
*Both boxers were informed of the results of the tests in writing.
*Both boxers were given the opportunity to appeal the findings to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.
*The IBA offered to pay for the majority of the costs to allow both boxers to appeal.
*Lin Yu-Ting did not appeal the decision.
*Imane Khelif appealed the decision, and then withdrew the appeal.
- at this point, everyone knows they’re male. The IOC putting inclusion above safety and fairness now laid bare for all to see. Shameful.
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@Dodge said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
From the IBA press conference:
Both boxers were initially subjected to a chromosomal test by an independent laboratory in Istanbul after the IBA received complaints from coaches and competitors during the 2022 Women's World Boxing Championships.
*Both boxers were re-tested in India again during the 2023 Women's World Boxing Championships to clarify and confirm prior results.
*Both boxers were found to have XY chromosomes.
*Both boxers were informed of the results of the tests in writing.
*Both boxers were given the opportunity to appeal the findings to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.
*The IBA offered to pay for the majority of the costs to allow both boxers to appeal.
*Lin Yu-Ting did not appeal the decision.
*Imane Khelif appealed the decision, and then withdrew the appeal.
- at this point, everyone knows they’re male. The IOC putting inclusion above safety and fairness now laid bare for all to see. Shameful.
Ooooooooooooh
Aren't the tests and the organisation (IBA) under investigation though?
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@Dodge said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The IBA has all sorts of corruption allegations levelled at it, however the tests were conducted at approved independent labs, the results were not appealed. The IOC are a disgrace
Thanks
Got a link please?
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@Dodge said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
From the IBA press conference:
Both boxers were initially subjected to a chromosomal test by an independent laboratory in Istanbul after the IBA received complaints from coaches and competitors during the 2022 Women's World Boxing Championships.
*Both boxers were re-tested in India again during the 2023 Women's World Boxing Championships to clarify and confirm prior results.
*Both boxers were found to have XY chromosomes.
*Both boxers were informed of the results of the tests in writing.
*Both boxers were given the opportunity to appeal the findings to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.
*The IBA offered to pay for the majority of the costs to allow both boxers to appeal.
*Lin Yu-Ting did not appeal the decision.
*Imane Khelif appealed the decision, and then withdrew the appeal.
- at this point, everyone knows they’re male. The IOC putting inclusion above safety and fairness now laid bare for all to see. Shameful.
This is all there is to it, the IBA may be corrupt but they were right when they said they don't bother testing testosterone levels as they can be altered. The test of whether they are XX or XY is conclusive, if they are XY then they would have gone through puberty with male levels of testosterone (note - there is no overlap in testosterone levels between males and females during puberty). That gives them a raft of advantages across the board, and as they've found with trans women even if they take hormonal treatment to lower their testosterone level, it doesn't do nearly enough to counter the advantages gained during puberty.
@Mr-Fish as someone that gave a different perspective in this thread (which I appreciated), would you agree that if someone with DSD has XY chromosomes they should not be allowed to compete in women's sports?
I studied this stuff at university, but that was over a decade ago now and things have evolved since then. If I'm missing something here I'd love someone to point out what and why, as this seems quite straightforward to me which is why it's so insane that it has been allowed to get to this point by sporting bodies. What category someone with DSD competes in should be sorted out at the lower levels well before it gets to the professional scene in the public eye.
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@No-Quarter I really don't know enough to say whether someone with XY chromosomes should be allowed to compete in women's sports. It's a tricky area.
There's been a lot of discourse online about how various athletes have various advantages in sports because of their physiology (Michael Phelps is the common example) but it's obviously not quite as simple as that. At a bare minimum, the IOC should make it very clear what the rules are (i.e. Even if you do have XY chromosomes you are allowed to compete under these conditions... Etc). Many will argue that's not enough but, as I say, I just don't know enough about the issue.
I do think a lot of the commentary online and by her opposition following the match etc was horrific. That's what I take the most umbrage with. Very few people know all the circumstances and there was a lot of charged language used that was downright nasty. People were stating she is trans, people were stating she's a man (which, I'm sure by many of their own metrics, would not be the case).
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@Mr-Fish said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
Many will argue that's not enough but, as I say, I just don't know enough about the issue.
It's goddamn blurry and that's the problem. You have to draw a line somewhere to make things 'fair. IF you don't, you kill women's sport. But - where is the line? Who goddamn knows. How much testosterone before you become overly advantaged?
And this being elite sport, you're getting only corner cases pushing the boundaries. IT's really not good.
This has not been helped by the qualifying criteria being different between different competitions (Olympics vs World Champs).
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@Mr-Fish thanks, and I completely agree that the commentary about this both in mainstream media and social media has been really diabolical, and I do have sympathy for the fighters in question. This should have been sorted out well before they became professionals.
A particular frustration I have with the reporting of the case is that they don't talk about any of the facts at all, finding articles that even mention chromosomes is challenging when that is at the heart of the issue! It's honestly like the media are trying to obfuscate the issue as much as possible, it's not difficult for reporters to do a bit of research before putting pen to paper.
I will say though, the "Michael Phelps" argument is extremely disingenuous, pushed forward by people that should know better (not including you there). I've posted about that on this very thread earlier on, relating to Laurel Hubbard at the time. In fact it's probably easier to quote myself again so here that is:
I strongly dislike this argument. I don't think you have bad intentions, in fact quite the opposite, but this is really misleading.
Of course there is variation within the sexes, that's why I'm not an All Black, could never play pro basketball or be a top weight lifter. There's even overlap between the sexes - Serena Williams would smoke plenty of male tennis players for example.
But we're not talking about matching up the weakest men against the strongest women here. We're talking about professional sports - the strongest men vs the strongest women. Here there is no overlap at all. None. Nada. Nil. The strongest woman is not even in the same stratosphere as the strongest man. Serena got smoked by an alcoholic male that was outside the top 200 and in poor physical condition. She could barely get a point off him. It was laughable and her bold "I want to play against the men" statements evaporated.
And so we have Hubbard. A male that would never get even close to the top of his field transitioning to female later in life, past the peak of an athlete, and immediately shooting straight to the top of the female division. That's seriously not fair on women that have slogged their guts out and are at the peak of their career age wise with a small window for winning a medal. It makes a farce of women's sports which have come such a long way in recent times to be taken seriously.
I just can't believe this is even up for debate let alone actually happening, and I'm utterly ashamed that NZ is sending a biological male to compete against women that have trained their whole lives for this moment.
This post was about trans women at the time, but the same principle applies to males with DSD, they have an unfair advantage and so should either be competing in the men's/open category, or, they can pursue something else in life. Competing professionally is not a "right", it's something only very few people are able to do, if they are not good enough to compete in the correct category then honestly, tough shit, join the rest of us.
And lastly, I agree with you that it is up to the IOC (and other sporting bodies) to set clear rules so that everyone knows what the criteria is moving forward. A very clear and easy to understand rule is that if you are born with XY chromosomes, then you will have gone through puberty with male typical levels of testosterone, so that excludes you from competing in the protected women's category. Clear, easy to understand, can be confirmed with a simple test early on, and would avoid all of this controversy.
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@No-Quarter said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
This post was about trans women at the time, but the same principle applies to males with DSD, they have an unfair advantage and so should either be competing in the men's/open category, or, they can pursue something else in life. Competing professionally is not a "right", it's something only very few people are able to do, if they are not good enough to compete in the correct category then honestly, tough shit, join the rest of us.
Agreed. A right to participate in sport is neither a right to compete at the highest level, nor is it a right to infringe on another's.
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Emma Hilton and Ross Tucker have summed up the situation nicely. Emma in particular has laid out the workflow that should be followed when deciding whether someone should be excluded from competing in the female category:
XY
AND
testes
AND
Testosterone production from testes
AND
Functional testosterone receptors
AND
Functional response to testosteroneEssentially as Tucker argues, a sex test should be the starting point for investigation, simple cheek swab identifies XY, it should be regarded as a screen. XX, automatically qualify for female category, XY requires further testing to establish the above from Hilton.
The last time female athletes were polled, over 80% supported sex screening, I bet that is higher now. So why the IOC keep repeating the line that ‘no one wants to go back to sex testing’ is beyond me. Women do.
The condition that Semenya had is v likely the same as these two boxers, internal testes with male testosterone production. People keep talking about Swyers, however that is apparently vanishingly rare and has never been observed in female athletes, where as the 5ARD is sought after in sport and therefore more likely.
I don’t like the fact this has become about the two individual boxers, this is a systemic failure on the part of the IOC for not acting on the test results when initially provided. The fact that they’re happy to rely on passports in a sport which is literally life threatening is disgusting. Men hit c162% harder than the same weight woman, this is a safety and governance issue. That said, once the results of those tests became known by the athletes and they chose not to appeal, they became complicit in dangerous cheating.
Transgender debate, in sport, in general
