All Blacks vs Argentina I
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@Jet you talk about 2015 stability, but how long did it take to get to that sort of stability? At least 3-4 years.
We are wanting stability when we’ve had another big exodus and that next crop are still very much inexperienced or haven’t been entrusted with the keys (yet).
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Jet you talk about 2015 stability, but how long did it take to get to that sort of stability? At least 3-4 years.
We are wanting stability when we’ve had another big exodus and that next crop are still very much inexperienced or haven’t been entrusted with the keys (yet).
Stability not just in selection, but in philosophy, in principles. If you are going or coming back from a sabbatical then you should be on the outer, unless you are in the McCaw or Carter bracket of player.
They all think they are entitled to it now. Some of them are seeing out their golden years in the bloody black jersey (Beaudy) akin to Bob Dylan still touring, but not playing any of the old hits.Its simple. Get a 6 at 6, a fullback at fullback etc.
One week its Finau, one week its Blackadder, one week its Jacobsen etc.
When a guy goes down injured the next cab off the rank should be obvious to the coaches and fans. But it isnt.
Instead its jiggery pokery the whole time. Papalii gets hooked today, Blackadder moves to 7 and Sititi goes to 6. Two changes for the price of one. I wouldnt be surprised to see Scooter back at 6 at this stage.
All of the players are being done a disservice like this. And it has been going on for about 6 years.
Rieko Ioane should be out on the left wing and retired as soon as his legs are gone. Instead he is masquerading as a centre.
Beaudy is the ten, no he's the fullback, but comes into the line to interchange with Richie when he wants to be the ten, no now he will stay at 15 and give the keys solely to Mo'unga, now hes gone to Japan, oh now he's back.
ALB is a 12, then a 13, then in exile, now he's the 13 again.
ALB has 71 caps!!!!! Beaudy has 125!!!!!
It is preposterous.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Jet you talk about 2015 stability, but how long did it take to get to that sort of stability? At least 3-4 years.
We are wanting stability when we’ve had another big exodus and that next crop are still very much inexperienced or haven’t been entrusted with the keys (yet).
Stability not just in selection, but in philosophy, in principles. If you are going or coming back from a sabbatical then you should be on the outer, unless you are in the McCaw or Carter bracket of player.
They all think they are entitled to it now. Some of them are seeing out their golden years in the bloody black jersey (Beaudy) akin to Bob Dylan still touring, but not playing any of the old hits.Its simple. Get a 6 at 6, a fullback at fullback etc.
One week its Finau, one week its Blackadder, one week its Jacobsen etc.
When a guy goes down injured the next cab off the rank should be obvious to the coaches and fans. But it isnt.
Instead its jiggery pokery the whole time. Papalii gets hooked today, Blackadder moves to 7 and Sititi goes to 6. Two changes for the price of one. I wouldnt be surprised to see Scooter back at 6 at this stage.
All of the players are being done a disservice like this. And it has been going on for about 6 years.
Rieko Ioane should be out on the left wing and retired as soon as his legs are gone. Instead he is masquerading as a centre.
Beaudy is the ten, no he's the fullback, but comes into the line to interchange with Richie when he wants to be the ten, no now he will stay at 15 and give the keys solely to Mo'unga, now hes gone to Japan, oh now he's back.
ALB is a 12, then a 13, then in exile, now he's the 13 again.
ALB has 71 caps!!!!! Beaudy has 125!!!!!
It is preposterous.
@Jet everything you have described has happened before in the ABs. And with pretty successful teams.
Gibbes and Collins from week to week. Not the same player or approach to a game by any stretch.
Rodders to Lauaki from week to week. Very different number 8’s that offer strengths not aligned to a single philosophy of play.
I just don’t think it’s panic stations just yet.
Also welcome to the Fern (if you are indeed a newbie….)
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@Jet everything you have described has happened before in the ABs. And with pretty successful teams.
Gibbes and Collins from week to week. Not the same player or approach to a game by any stretch.
Rodders to Lauaki from week to week. Very different number 8’s that offer strengths not aligned to a single philosophy of play.
I just don’t think it’s panic stations just yet.
Also welcome to the Fern (if you are indeed a newbie….)
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Jet everything you have described has happened before in the ABs. And with pretty successful teams.
Gibbes and Collins from week to week. Not the same player or approach to a game by any stretch.
Rodders to Lauaki from week to week. Very different number 8’s that offer strengths not aligned to a single philosophy of play.
I just don’t think it’s panic stations just yet.
Also welcome to the Fern (if you are indeed a newbie….)
We have had Frizell, Finau, Jacobsen, Blackadder at 6 in our last 5 games.
Meanwhile the super rugby winning 6 is at home scratching his bollox.
While I do take your point...is it not fair to say that the allblack selection policy is akin to a Jackson Pollock painting over the last few years? Just fucking shit at a wall and seeing what sticks.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Jet everything you have described has happened before in the ABs. And with pretty successful teams.
Gibbes and Collins from week to week. Not the same player or approach to a game by any stretch.
Rodders to Lauaki from week to week. Very different number 8’s that offer strengths not aligned to a single philosophy of play.
I just don’t think it’s panic stations just yet.
Also welcome to the Fern (if you are indeed a newbie….)
We have had Frizell, Finau, Jacobsen, Blackadder at 6 in our last 5 games.
Meanwhile the super rugby winning 6 is at home scratching his bollox.
While I do take your point...is it not fair to say that the allblack selection policy is akin to a Jackson Pollock painting over the last few years? Just fucking shit at a wall and seeing what sticks.
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That must be some good shit!
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the good thing about the ABs slowly having become a good instead of an incredible team (circa 2010-2016) is that losses don't take an emotional toll on my well being anymore. Another loss? no problem, I'll go back to pretending rugby doesn't exist
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the good thing about the ABs slowly having become a good instead of an incredible team (circa 2010-2016) is that losses don't take an emotional toll on my well being anymore. Another loss? no problem, I'll go back to pretending rugby doesn't exist
@Tordah said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
the good thing about the ABs slowly having become a good instead of an incredible team (circa 2010-2016) is that losses don't take an emotional toll on my well being anymore. Another loss? no problem, I'll go back to pretending rugby doesn't exist
Yeah thanks Fozzie, was able to plumb the utility room instead of sitting around in a stupor.
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the good thing about the ABs slowly having become a good instead of an incredible team (circa 2010-2016) is that losses don't take an emotional toll on my well being anymore. Another loss? no problem, I'll go back to pretending rugby doesn't exist
@Tordah said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
the good thing about the ABs slowly having become a good instead of an incredible team (circa 2010-2016) is that losses don't take an emotional toll on my well being anymore. Another loss? no problem, I'll go back to pretending rugby doesn't exist
It's sad, but when we lose I don't even bother to watch it.
Games are usually 1am for me and I work the following day, so I wait to see the results before I download it.
It's hard to get motivated to watch when we lose, which happens too often the last few years. -
Well I got up this morning and felt good.
Razor has let us know it's not his fault, after the game he made it clear it was players, as that's not how they trained!! And Ryan just after halftime made sure we all knew how dunb he thought Reece was with a tap back.
So we will be right (Fozzie should of taken notice on gow you do it) -
There was a distinct difference in the attacking structures of the two teams. The ABs almost always went for the box kick inside their half which didn’t really pay off once, instead it cost us dearly with the Reece knock back.
We also really struggle to make any go forward ball through the backline, the out the back pass to DM often leaves us behind the gainline. This is possibly our biggest issue as we simply cannot build pressure by going forward.
Argentina/SA in contrast seem to have no issue going forward through direct and backline play. Argentina from memory put up very few box kicks compared to us.
Argentina did a NZ and simply carved up with turnover and messy ball, they waited for NZ to make mistakes and make errors and capitalised on them.
The NZ lineout was actually very good with Taylor so I have no idea why it fell apart with Aumua, perhaps the other change at lock and loose forward confused the unit.
Loose forward is another issue. Far too many times we were isolated and got turned over. You can tell when the half back and wingers etc are committing to rucks we have a problem with our ruck work.
Lots to work on but for me it’s our attack and how we go forward is the biggest issue and of course our inability to dominate up front.
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@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Honestly listening to this sounds like listening to aware children. They say the right things, but it's the excuses we've heard before for exactly the same transgressions. How can you not have patterns to exit? How do you not know to not throw passes to nobody? How do you not know that passing to someone without support is only going to put us under pressure and we'll likely give away a penalty as a result?
Let's be honest and say we lost this game more than our opposition won it because we placed ourselves under pressure with stupid or ineffective execution.
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Honestly listening to this sounds like listening to aware children. They say the right things, but it's the excuses we've heard before for exactly the same transgressions. How can you not have patterns to exit? How do you not know to not throw passes to nobody? How do you not know that passing to someone without support is only going to put us under pressure and we'll likely give away a penalty as a result?
Let's be honest and say we lost this game more than our opposition won it because we placed ourselves under pressure with stupid or ineffective execution.
This was a big problem last night and a problem that has been around for a good few years now. We can't get momentum because of it. The Argies kicked off superbly. High deep kicks with determined chasers who pinned us in our 22. This is what teams have been doing to us because we have no way of effectively getting ourselves out of there. Our response is to maybe do one or two ineffective hit ups then use the half to put up a high ball (or kick to touch) or we'll give it one of our kickers to meekly punt it somewhere. It's not just an AB problem, this is a problem through out NZ rugby.
I don't really know what the answer is. I would love to see someone in the team that can kick us out of trouble but there is a lack of big kickers in NZ. Sullivan, Fihaki, and Stevenson spring to mind as exceptions but, apart from Sullivan, I don't see them having a future in Black. Jordie is not the answer. Every now and then he can pull off a big punt but he is not consistent and he is not accurate.
In a post full of good points @Jet mentioned the continued selection of B Barrett and Savea and having to fill in the pieces around them. Spot on. Both players upset the balance and neither one is currently good enough to justify that. It's time to move on from them and some others.
It's also time to move on from our game plan. It's not necessarily a Saders game plan, it's a New Zealand game plan of trying to play 'pretty' and running other teams ragged. Up until this year every team in NZ played a version of this. The Blues were a breath of fresh air and I was heartened a little to see Auckland and Northland play a more direct style in the opening round of the NPC. I hope that continues and we see more teams adapt to that way of playing.
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@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Honestly listening to this sounds like listening to aware children. They say the right things, but it's the excuses we've heard before for exactly the same transgressions. How can you not have patterns to exit? How do you not know to not throw passes to nobody? How do you not know that passing to someone without support is only going to put us under pressure and we'll likely give away a penalty as a result?
Let's be honest and say we lost this game more than our opposition won it because we placed ourselves under pressure with stupid or ineffective execution.
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Honestly listening to this sounds like listening to aware children. They say the right things, but it's the excuses we've heard before for exactly the same transgressions. How can you not have patterns to exit? How do you not know to not throw passes to nobody? How do you not know that passing to someone without support is only going to put us under pressure and we'll likely give away a penalty as a result?
Let's be honest and say we lost this game more than our opposition won it because we placed ourselves under pressure with stupid or ineffective execution.
THIS.
I haven't watched the press conference, not sure I can stomach it - after watching the on-field post-match interview... which did not fill me with confidence that Scott knows what he's doing. Horribly vague answers, and completely ignoring/avoiding questions.
And the final question: "What are the first things you're going to be talking about on Monday?"
"Umm, yeah, I think we'll probably try to figure out what things we need to improve on" - repeated 3 times with slightly different phrasing each time.
Um, no shit Scott... THAT WAS THE QUESTION!Normally I'd expect a massive backlash in the next game, but... I'm not sure this time. I'll be hoping, but not assuming.
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the good thing about the ABs slowly having become a good instead of an incredible team (circa 2010-2016) is that losses don't take an emotional toll on my well being anymore. Another loss? no problem, I'll go back to pretending rugby doesn't exist
@Tordah said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
the good thing about the ABs slowly having become a good instead of an incredible team (circa 2010-2016) is that losses don't take an emotional toll on my well being anymore. Another loss? no problem, I'll go back to pretending rugby doesn't exist
This post sums up NZ in general I reckon. I don’t think Razor will be in any danger of being on Rugby News covers with the word “Guilty” in big red letters anytime soon.
I was never comfortable with the media jizz fest about him being appointed as some sort of saviour either, cringy as fuck. ( which I guess is not surprising for NZ media )
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Razor looked and sounded meek. I cant picture him giving them a half time spray at all.
The body language from himself and Ardie was (for want of a better adjective) Beta.
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Razor looked and sounded meek. I cant picture him giving them a half time spray at all.
The body language from himself and Ardie was (for want of a better adjective) Beta.
@Jet said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Razor looked and sounded meek. I cant picture him giving them a half time spray at all.
The body language from himself and Ardie was (for want of a better adjective) Beta.
Early days but he is looking like a man under the pump already,
And I’m not so sure it’s just a win loss thing,
But more how he visualised in his mind he could coach them to play, what he thought would be the winning formula, isn’t working on the field
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@Jet said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Razor looked and sounded meek. I cant picture him giving them a half time spray at all.
The body language from himself and Ardie was (for want of a better adjective) Beta.
Early days but he is looking like a man under the pump already,
And I’m not so sure it’s just a win loss thing,
But more how he visualised in his mind he could coach them to play, what he thought would be the winning formula, isn’t working on the field
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Jet said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Razor looked and sounded meek. I cant picture him giving them a half time spray at all.
The body language from himself and Ardie was (for want of a better adjective) Beta.
Early days but he is looking like a man under the pump already,
And I’m not so sure it’s just a win loss thing,
But more how he visualised in his mind he could coach them to play, what he thought would be the winning formula, isn’t working on the field
Razor is in a tricky spot now. Does he change things up and risk looking like he stuffed up and/or getting accused of not knowing what he is doing, or does he back his original plan despite the early stumbling?
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@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Jet said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Razor looked and sounded meek. I cant picture him giving them a half time spray at all.
The body language from himself and Ardie was (for want of a better adjective) Beta.
Early days but he is looking like a man under the pump already,
And I’m not so sure it’s just a win loss thing,
But more how he visualised in his mind he could coach them to play, what he thought would be the winning formula, isn’t working on the field
Razor is in a tricky spot now. Does he change things up and risk looking like he stuffed up and/or getting accused of not knowing what he is doing, or does he back his original plan despite the early stumbling?
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Jet said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Razor looked and sounded meek. I cant picture him giving them a half time spray at all.
The body language from himself and Ardie was (for want of a better adjective) Beta.
Early days but he is looking like a man under the pump already,
And I’m not so sure it’s just a win loss thing,
But more how he visualised in his mind he could coach them to play, what he thought would be the winning formula, isn’t working on the field
Razor is in a tricky spot now. Does he change things up and risk looking like he stuffed up and/or getting accused of not knowing what he is doing, or does he back his original plan despite the early stumbling?
Everyone has plans until you get smashed in the mouth....
Maybe his team underestimated how hard it would be to execute his vision for the ABs. The longer he does the same thing with no significant improvement in performance or results it will start to look like arrogance and pig headedness.
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The blueprint is there! The periods of play that led to ALB and Telea's try were awesome (I hope to God that's not the point where we deviated from coach instructions). But we're in need of tweaks.
And seriously the team needs more bodies in motion. Even the ruthlessly efficient Boks have more guys moving off the ball than we do.
