All Blacks vs Argentina I
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I kind of expected this tbh when you look at Razor's assistants. Did anyone look at Holland and McDonald and think to themselves this is a star studded team?
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I kind of expected this tbh when you look at Razor's assistants. Did anyone look at Holland and McDonald and think to themselves this is a star studded team?
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
I kind of expected this tbh when you look at Razor's assistants. Did anyone look at Holland and McDonald and think to themselves this is a star studded team?
Even more concerning how their respective franchises improved out of sight after they left...
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Well a dog of a game really.
Some of the post match comments from the media have been plain silly - especially the talking about how we created oppertunites but didn't capitalise. Yeah there's a vain of truth there but FFS - shouldn't the record number of points ever conceded to Argentina be more the issue?
You are not going to win games against any tier 1 nation if you concede 38 points.
I must say it took me by surprise as I thought our defense had been fairly solid but my goodness, Argentina just looked dangerous everytime they had the ball, either in close our out wide. It was hard to pin down what was wrong with our defensive pattern as it appeared that everything was wrong with it.
Seeing Dmac standing one off the ruck as the pillar defender when the Argies were hammering our line for the go-ahead try really took the cake. A complete lack of urgency from our forwards to get around the corner and defend when it really mattered.
I'd love to see the missed tackle stats as I'm sure certain players really let themselves down here.
Our "strong" bench was hoplessly mismanged and in reality cost us the game. Instead of adding impact they added errors, subbing on players only made things worse. I feel the majority of the subs were put on too late. Savea at 8, Blackadder at 7 and Sititi at 6 to close out a game is amazing levels of stupidity - lets put on the most inexperienced, out of position and slow loose forward trio we can!!
A really dissapoiting loss, defensively weak and mentally weak when the pressure came on. We effectively gifted the ball to the Argies for the last 20 minutes and to give them credit they didn't need to be asked twice and easily closed out the match.
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Razor looked and sounded meek. I cant picture him giving them a half time spray at all.
The body language from himself and Ardie was (for want of a better adjective) Beta.
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I kind of expected this tbh when you look at Razor's assistants. Did anyone look at Holland and McDonald and think to themselves this is a star studded team?
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
I kind of expected this tbh when you look at Razor's assistants. Did anyone look at Holland and McDonald and think to themselves this is a star studded team?
Holland and McDonald?
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I kind of expected this tbh when you look at Razor's assistants. Did anyone look at Holland and McDonald and think to themselves this is a star studded team?
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
I kind of expected this tbh when you look at Razor's assistants. Did anyone look at Holland and McDonald and think to themselves this is a star studded team?
I'm starting to think Razor is a bit like Eddie Jones as a head coach, in that he only works with subordinates who either think similarly to him or will tow the line, doesn't appear to be interested in strong personalities who may challenge him.
two years ago Schmidt couldn't work with Razor because of philosophical differences in their coaching approach, Brown was probably the same, hence he would rather coach with SA than the pinnacle for any NZ coach - the ABs.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
I kind of expected this tbh when you look at Razor's assistants. Did anyone look at Holland and McDonald and think to themselves this is a star studded team?
I'm starting to think Razor is a bit like Eddie Jones as a head coach, in that he only works with subordinates who either think similarly to him or will tow the line, doesn't appear to be interested in strong personalities who may challenge him.
two years ago Schmidt couldn't work with Razor because of philosophical differences in their coaching approach, Brown was probably the same, hence he would rather coach with SA than the pinnacle for any NZ coach - the ABs.
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
I kind of expected this tbh when you look at Razor's assistants. Did anyone look at Holland and McDonald and think to themselves this is a star studded team?
I'm starting to think Razor is a bit like Eddie Jones as a head coach, in that he only works with subordinates who either think similarly to him or will tow the line, doesn't appear to be interested in strong personalities who may challenge him.
two years ago Schmidt couldn't work with Razor because of philosophical differences in their coaching approach, Brown was probably the same, hence he would rather coach with SA than the pinnacle for any NZ coach - the ABs.
You certainly don’t know Razor at all if you think that it is so far over the top it’s not funny.
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@darylmitchell said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
I kind of expected this tbh when you look at Razor's assistants. Did anyone look at Holland and McDonald and think to themselves this is a star studded team?
I'm starting to think Razor is a bit like Eddie Jones as a head coach, in that he only works with subordinates who either think similarly to him or will tow the line, doesn't appear to be interested in strong personalities who may challenge him.
two years ago Schmidt couldn't work with Razor because of philosophical differences in their coaching approach, Brown was probably the same, hence he would rather coach with SA than the pinnacle for any NZ coach - the ABs.
You certainly don’t know Razor at all if you think that it is so far over the top it’s not funny.
@Chris maybe so, i've read guys who've know him like O'Gara say he's unconventional and is a bit of a mad genius, i was just speculating there because Eddie Jones was similar in a way, a real out of the box thinker and great coach but had a tendency to surround himself with sub-par assistants.
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@Chris maybe so, i've read guys who've know him like O'Gara say he's unconventional and is a bit of a mad genius, i was just speculating there because Eddie Jones was similar in a way, a real out of the box thinker and great coach but had a tendency to surround himself with sub-par assistants.
@darylmitchell I would think Sotutu is the opposite of a strong personality from what I've seen/heard.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
I kind of expected this tbh when you look at Razor's assistants. Did anyone look at Holland and McDonald and think to themselves this is a star studded team?
I'm starting to think Razor is a bit like Eddie Jones as a head coach, in that he only works with subordinates who either think similarly to him or will tow the line, doesn't appear to be interested in strong personalities who may challenge him.
two years ago Schmidt couldn't work with Razor because of philosophical differences in their coaching approach, Brown was probably the same, hence he would rather coach with SA than the pinnacle for any NZ coach - the ABs.
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
two years ago Schmidt couldn't work with Razor
Because he was already in foster's team and he felt morally wrong going with a replacement, nothing to do with Razor
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There’s a good 500-600 messages I need catch up on here in so I’m thinking I’ll flag that and drop my 2cents even though i have no doubt it’s already been said.
All blacks lacked an enforcer/big ball carrier BIG TIME. The closest thing we have to that is Finau, are we just going to give up on Finau after 2 tests against England? If so, what a joke. He’s finding his feet with the new coaching system just as much as anyone else and he deserves to be shown some more loyalty and belief there. A lot of people may not like it, but he’s the best 6 we have in the squad. The only true 6 too.
A small gripe with how returning players have been handled. We included Josh Lord and Will Jordan in the matchday 23, I can understand Lord because of the locking injuries but he has only played 1, maybe half of a NPC pre season game for Taranaki and it showed. The guy looked lost.
Will Jordan, he has only played half a NPC pre season game for Ta$man. The coaches said he is one of the only players who could return to rugby and be thrust straight back into the test arena, I beg to differ. There is a major play from the coaches there, one of confidence because they have coached the guy before but what sort of message is that sending to the rest of that team?
Taking off Dalton when we did was a huge mistake. All of a sudden we had no genuine 7 on the field in a close game and in test rugby, in my opinion if you don’t have a specialist 7 on the field you’re going to be in trouble. Terrible substitution management there. It was either Blackadder or Ardie who should have come off for Sititi.
Next week I won’t be surprised if we see the addition of Sam Cane to bring some leadership into the mix with Barrett still being out, it was clearly missed.
One of the worst AB’s performances I’ve seen in a long long time. Confident we will bounce back next week in Auckland. Let’s get behind the boys and hope the right squad balance is found.
Ratima needs to start.
@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
All blacks lacked an enforcer/big ball carrier BIG TIME. The closest thing we have to that is Finau, are we just going to give up on Finau after 2 tests against England? If so, what a joke. He’s finding his feet with the new coaching system just as much as anyone else and he deserves to be shown some more loyalty and belief there. A lot of people may not like it, but he’s the best 6 we have in the squad. The only true 6 too.
I think you are jumping at shadows here. If they wanted to drop him they had a chance to when they named the RC squad.
He’s still very young and i have no doubts are in the plans for the coaches. There were some signs in the England series that I think the coaches will keep working with in training and when that test opportunity comes again - and it will - he will be a better player for it.
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season). Hell we all held our collective breaths with Shannon sort of expecting the worst but hoping for the best of an unideal situation.
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@Chris maybe so, i've read guys who've know him like O'Gara say he's unconventional and is a bit of a mad genius, i was just speculating there because Eddie Jones was similar in a way, a real out of the box thinker and great coach but had a tendency to surround himself with sub-par assistants.
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@Chris maybe so, i've read guys who've know him like O'Gara say he's unconventional and is a bit of a mad genius, i was just speculating there because Eddie Jones was similar in a way, a real out of the box thinker and great coach but had a tendency to surround himself with sub-par assistants.
I have meet Razor a couple of times, I wouldn’t say I know him very well, not as well as another person on the Fern who is close to Razor.
But I know a few players who have been coached by Razor and some people who have coached with him and they paint a completely different picture,Yes he is unconventional as I understand it. -
@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
All blacks lacked an enforcer/big ball carrier BIG TIME. The closest thing we have to that is Finau, are we just going to give up on Finau after 2 tests against England? If so, what a joke. He’s finding his feet with the new coaching system just as much as anyone else and he deserves to be shown some more loyalty and belief there. A lot of people may not like it, but he’s the best 6 we have in the squad. The only true 6 too.
I think you are jumping at shadows here. If they wanted to drop him they had a chance to when they named the RC squad.
He’s still very young and i have no doubts are in the plans for the coaches. There were some signs in the England series that I think the coaches will keep working with in training and when that test opportunity comes again - and it will - he will be a better player for it.
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season). Hell we all held our collective breaths with Shannon sort of expecting the worst but hoping for the best of an unideal situation.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season).
You mean a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and know how to win comps? That sort of player?
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season).
You mean a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and know how to win comps? That sort of player?
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season).
You mean a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and know how to win comps? That sort of player?
No there wasn’t.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season).
You mean a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and know how to win comps? That sort of player?
No there wasn’t.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
You mean a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and know how to win comps? That sort of player?
No there wasn’t.
Is that you Mr Ryan?
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
You mean a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and know how to win comps? That sort of player?
No there wasn’t.
Is that you Mr Ryan?
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
You mean a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and know how to win comps? That sort of player?
No there wasn’t.
Is that you Mr Ryan?
No, I’m Steve Hansen. No, I’m actually Fozzie.
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@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
All blacks lacked an enforcer/big ball carrier BIG TIME. The closest thing we have to that is Finau, are we just going to give up on Finau after 2 tests against England? If so, what a joke. He’s finding his feet with the new coaching system just as much as anyone else and he deserves to be shown some more loyalty and belief there. A lot of people may not like it, but he’s the best 6 we have in the squad. The only true 6 too.
I think you are jumping at shadows here. If they wanted to drop him they had a chance to when they named the RC squad.
He’s still very young and i have no doubts are in the plans for the coaches. There were some signs in the England series that I think the coaches will keep working with in training and when that test opportunity comes again - and it will - he will be a better player for it.
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season). Hell we all held our collective breaths with Shannon sort of expecting the worst but hoping for the best of an unideal situation.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
All blacks lacked an enforcer/big ball carrier BIG TIME. The closest thing we have to that is Finau, are we just going to give up on Finau after 2 tests against England? If so, what a joke. He’s finding his feet with the new coaching system just as much as anyone else and he deserves to be shown some more loyalty and belief there. A lot of people may not like it, but he’s the best 6 we have in the squad. The only true 6 too.
I think you are jumping at shadows here. If they wanted to drop him they had a chance to when they named the RC squad.
He’s still very young and i have no doubts are in the plans for the coaches. There were some signs in the England series that I think the coaches will keep working with in training and when that test opportunity comes again - and it will - he will be a better player for it.
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season). Hell we all held our collective breaths with Shannon sort of expecting the worst but hoping for the best of an unideal situation.
I think my whole comment still stands and I don’t really see your argument. He is the best 6 in the team and has been replaced at 6 by someone who is a 6.5 and is only starting because he’s played in Razors teams previously. It’s a complete comfort pick and a guy who has already peaked. Finau has so much room to grow, why not grow him now and continue to get test match experience along the way? Hell, Akira should be in there over Blackadder anyway.
- We lack an enforcer/big 6.
- Finau was dropped from the 23(not completely from the squad like you’re saying).
So the whole jumping at shadows thing… not really sure about that.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
All blacks lacked an enforcer/big ball carrier BIG TIME. The closest thing we have to that is Finau, are we just going to give up on Finau after 2 tests against England? If so, what a joke. He’s finding his feet with the new coaching system just as much as anyone else and he deserves to be shown some more loyalty and belief there. A lot of people may not like it, but he’s the best 6 we have in the squad. The only true 6 too.
I think you are jumping at shadows here. If they wanted to drop him they had a chance to when they named the RC squad.
He’s still very young and i have no doubts are in the plans for the coaches. There were some signs in the England series that I think the coaches will keep working with in training and when that test opportunity comes again - and it will - he will be a better player for it.
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season). Hell we all held our collective breaths with Shannon sort of expecting the worst but hoping for the best of an unideal situation.
I think my whole comment still stands and I don’t really see your argument. He is the best 6 in the team and has been replaced at 6 by someone who is a 6.5 and is only starting because he’s played in Razors teams previously. It’s a complete comfort pick and a guy who has already peaked. Finau has so much room to grow, why not grow him now and continue to get test match experience along the way? Hell, Akira should be in there over Blackadder anyway.
- We lack an enforcer/big 6.
- Finau was dropped from the 23(not completely from the squad like you’re saying).
So the whole jumping at shadows thing… not really sure about that.
@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
Hell, Akira should be in there over Blackadder anyway.
If only this Akira fellow was a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and knows how to be part of a winning team, he'd sound ideal!
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@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
Hell, Akira should be in there over Blackadder anyway.
If only this Akira fellow was a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and knows how to be part of a winning team, he'd sound ideal!
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
Hell, Akira should be in there over Blackadder anyway.
If only this Akira fellow was a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and knows how to be part of a winning team, he'd sound ideal!
oh and bonus point if he picks fights with scrappy halfbacks..
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
All blacks lacked an enforcer/big ball carrier BIG TIME. The closest thing we have to that is Finau, are we just going to give up on Finau after 2 tests against England? If so, what a joke. He’s finding his feet with the new coaching system just as much as anyone else and he deserves to be shown some more loyalty and belief there. A lot of people may not like it, but he’s the best 6 we have in the squad. The only true 6 too.
I think you are jumping at shadows here. If they wanted to drop him they had a chance to when they named the RC squad.
He’s still very young and i have no doubts are in the plans for the coaches. There were some signs in the England series that I think the coaches will keep working with in training and when that test opportunity comes again - and it will - he will be a better player for it.
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season). Hell we all held our collective breaths with Shannon sort of expecting the worst but hoping for the best of an unideal situation.
I think my whole comment still stands and I don’t really see your argument. He is the best 6 in the team and has been replaced at 6 by someone who is a 6.5 and is only starting because he’s played in Razors teams previously. It’s a complete comfort pick and a guy who has already peaked. Finau has so much room to grow, why not grow him now and continue to get test match experience along the way? Hell, Akira should be in there over Blackadder anyway.
- We lack an enforcer/big 6.
- Finau was dropped from the 23(not completely from the squad like you’re saying).
So the whole jumping at shadows thing… not really sure about that.
@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
All blacks lacked an enforcer/big ball carrier BIG TIME. The closest thing we have to that is Finau, are we just going to give up on Finau after 2 tests against England? If so, what a joke. He’s finding his feet with the new coaching system just as much as anyone else and he deserves to be shown some more loyalty and belief there. A lot of people may not like it, but he’s the best 6 we have in the squad. The only true 6 too.
I think you are jumping at shadows here. If they wanted to drop him they had a chance to when they named the RC squad.
He’s still very young and i have no doubts are in the plans for the coaches. There were some signs in the England series that I think the coaches will keep working with in training and when that test opportunity comes again - and it will - he will be a better player for it.
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season). Hell we all held our collective breaths with Shannon sort of expecting the worst but hoping for the best of an unideal situation.
I think my whole comment still stands and I don’t really see your argument. He is the best 6 in the team and has been replaced at 6 by someone who is a 6.5 and is only starting because he’s played in Razors teams previously. It’s a complete comfort pick and a guy who has already peaked. Finau has so much room to grow, why not grow him now and continue to get test match experience along the way? Hell, Akira should be in there over Blackadder anyway.
- We lack an enforcer/big 6.
- Finau was dropped from the 23(not completely from the squad like you’re saying).
So the whole jumping at shadows thing… not really sure about that.
There’s no evidence to suggest that they have “given up after 2 tests”, so not sure why you suggest that.
It’s not unusual if history is anything to go by that new coaching set ups try different players to see where things are at. Happened under Mitchell, Henry, Hansen and Fozzie. Different styles of players were played in the same position.
I expect a bit of rotation as they find the best lineup, especially in the loose forwards given the number of loosies in the squad.
