All Blacks vs Wallabies I

[Bones]

@booboo Plummer is 26 and only really in his second season of regular game time. He's hardly over the hill. He also led the champion team around the park excellently.

[nzzp]

@booboo said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

Is Harry Plummer really seen as a long term test player?

We get seduced into picking players like Mo'unga. With talent in the backline, a steady 10 can work.

I'm not nearly as down on DMac as others; I think he's gone really well over the last few seasons, and really picked his chance to attack. However, who's his backup? BB is going downhill and still thinks he can tuck the ball, run and break free. I'd have no issues with trying a 10 who can drive a team around the paddock, but without obvious flair/X factor.

At the weekend our forwards did enough - it was the backs who let us down. Sometimes you need an unflashy type to set others away.

[booboo]

@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

I'm not nearly as down on DMac as others;

Yeah. Me neither.

I've seen little whinging about him on here, which would be indicative of him playing flawlessly. But have heard/read comments elsewhere.

His speed at 10 seemed to suit our attack in the week just gone, Not sure there's an equivalent.

Would like to know what he's not doing.

[Mr Fish]

Bar one or two blips (including his goal-kicking in the weekend, which is normally very reliable and with another option in the backline in Jordie Barrett, not really a major reason to drop him from playing 10), McKenzie has been very good this year. I actually don't think he's been a step down from Mo'unga at all, to be honest.

[kpkanz]

@Bones said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

@booboo Plummer is 26 and only really in his second season of regular game time. He's hardly over the hill. He also led the champion team around the park excellently.

The Plummer hype needs to die down.

I mean the guys got 75 caps at super level. He's been around for 6 seasons now with plenty of opportunity to make an impression on the coaches yet hasnt been able to nail the starting 10 position at his own club.

For the vast majority of his Blues career when he wasnt behind Beauden, he was still behind Perofeta and Otere Black ffs. The only starts he got were when both of them were injured.

The Blues in 2021 won Super Rugby Trans Ta$man with Otere Black, with Plummer sitting on the bench.

Even this year in his breakthrough year, Plummer wasn't the preferred 10.
Perofeta started at 10 for the first 6 rounds until he got injured.

The Blues record at that time, with Perofeta leading before injury was 5-1 (only losing to the top of the table Hurricanes).

Only once Perofeta got injured did Plummer get the starting 10 spot. Perofeta only came back 2 weeks before the knockouts.

A week after coming back he was immediately made starting 10 again.

The only reason he didn't continue as starting 10 for the rest of the playoffs is because Sullivan (as the only other experienced fullback) got injured, Perofeta was then moved to fullback to fill the spot and Plummer brought back into 10 for the rest of the playoffs.

So I find it difficult to imagine investing time in a guy for the AB's starting 10 spot when he wasn't even the preferred 10 at his own super club.

Even the coaches who spend the most time with him preferred other players we already have access to.

[NTA]

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

The decision to dump Rennie for Jones is clearly still being felt.

Let's say Rennie took us out of the pool - and maybe even to a Semifinal; the talk here about Bledisloe games papering over cracks, and this would be no different for the rest of us.

Sliding doors, right?

I'm told that Peter Horne's remit will be top-to-bottom reform, not just High Performance. That gives me a glimmer of hope, but unless he actually talks to people like me in club land, he won't get the full picture.

[antipodean]

@kpkanz said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

@Bones said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

@booboo Plummer is 26 and only really in his second season of regular game time. He's hardly over the hill. He also led the champion team around the park excellently.

The Plummer hype needs to die down.

I mean the guys got 75 caps at super level. He's been around for 6 seasons now with plenty of opportunity to make an impression on the coaches yet hasnt been able to nail the starting 10 position at his own club.

For the vast majority of his Blues career when he wasnt behind Beauden, he was still behind Perofeta and Otere Black ffs. The only starts he got were when both of them were injured.

The Blues in 2021 won Super Rugby Trans Ta$man with Otere Black, with Plummer sitting on the bench.

Even this year in his breakthrough year, Plummer wasn't the preferred 10.
Perofeta started at 10 for the first 6 rounds until he got injured.

The Blues record at that time, with Perofeta leading before injury was 5-1 (only losing to the top of the table Hurricanes).

Only once Perofeta got injured did Plummer get the starting 10 spot. Perofeta only came back 2 weeks before the knockouts.

A week after coming back he was immediately made starting 10 again.

The only reason he didn't continue as starting 10 for the rest of the playoffs is because Sullivan (as the only other experienced fullback) got injured, Perofeta was then moved to fullback to fill the spot and Plummer brought back into 10 for the rest of the playoffs.

So I find it difficult to imagine investing time in a guy for the AB's starting 10 spot when he wasn't even the preferred 10 at his own super club.

Even the coaches who spend the most time with him preferred other players we already have access to.

No one is pretending he's the second coming of DC, merely that since he's in the squad we should give him some time to see what a bigger body, that's displayed defensive capability, an ability to make good decisions keeping the ball in front of his forwards and giving his backline time and space could do for the team.

Because let's be honest here, McKenzie was really fucking average on the weekend. And good results come from competition for spots.

[canefan]

@kpkanz said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

@Frank said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

My starting 15 for the Wallabies

15 Love (more solid option than Jordan)
14 Reiko
13 Proctor (time for a real centre)
12 Jordie or ALB

This shit is dimwitted beyond belief. The problem isn't the centre, it's the bloke inside him and his poor decision making.

DMac has displayed he's a rabbit in the spotlight. How many more times do we need this "learning"? Start Plummer.

Savea to the bench. Sititi to start at 8.

If we had Plummer the last 2 games we would have lost by 20 each game

Maybe maybe not. But since the guy never had a run, who's to know what he can and can't do?

[canefan]

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

@kpkanz said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

@Bones said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

@booboo Plummer is 26 and only really in his second season of regular game time. He's hardly over the hill. He also led the champion team around the park excellently.

The Plummer hype needs to die down.

I mean the guys got 75 caps at super level. He's been around for 6 seasons now with plenty of opportunity to make an impression on the coaches yet hasnt been able to nail the starting 10 position at his own club.

For the vast majority of his Blues career when he wasnt behind Beauden, he was still behind Perofeta and Otere Black ffs. The only starts he got were when both of them were injured.

The Blues in 2021 won Super Rugby Trans Ta$man with Otere Black, with Plummer sitting on the bench.

Even this year in his breakthrough year, Plummer wasn't the preferred 10.
Perofeta started at 10 for the first 6 rounds until he got injured.

The Blues record at that time, with Perofeta leading before injury was 5-1 (only losing to the top of the table Hurricanes).

Only once Perofeta got injured did Plummer get the starting 10 spot. Perofeta only came back 2 weeks before the knockouts.

A week after coming back he was immediately made starting 10 again.

The only reason he didn't continue as starting 10 for the rest of the playoffs is because Sullivan (as the only other experienced fullback) got injured, Perofeta was then moved to fullback to fill the spot and Plummer brought back into 10 for the rest of the playoffs.

So I find it difficult to imagine investing time in a guy for the AB's starting 10 spot when he wasn't even the preferred 10 at his own super club.

Even the coaches who spend the most time with him preferred other players we already have access to.

No one is pretending he's the second coming of DC, merely that since he's in the squad we should give him some time to see what a bigger body, that's displayed defensive capability, an ability to make good decisions keeping the ball in front of his forwards and giving his backline time and space could do for the team.

Because let's be honest here, McKenzie was really fucking average on the weekend. And good results come from competition for spots.

Exactly. I don't know why some posters seem to think this is a zero sum game. Just because we should try Plummer doesn't mean we need to bin DMac to do it

[kpkanz]

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

@kpkanz said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

@Bones said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

@booboo Plummer is 26 and only really in his second season of regular game time. He's hardly over the hill. He also led the champion team around the park excellently.

The Plummer hype needs to die down.

I mean the guys got 75 caps at super level. He's been around for 6 seasons now with plenty of opportunity to make an impression on the coaches yet hasnt been able to nail the starting 10 position at his own club.

For the vast majority of his Blues career when he wasnt behind Beauden, he was still behind Perofeta and Otere Black ffs. The only starts he got were when both of them were injured.

The Blues in 2021 won Super Rugby Trans Ta$man with Otere Black, with Plummer sitting on the bench.

Even this year in his breakthrough year, Plummer wasn't the preferred 10.
Perofeta started at 10 for the first 6 rounds until he got injured.

The Blues record at that time, with Perofeta leading before injury was 5-1 (only losing to the top of the table Hurricanes).

Only once Perofeta got injured did Plummer get the starting 10 spot. Perofeta only came back 2 weeks before the knockouts.

A week after coming back he was immediately made starting 10 again.

The only reason he didn't continue as starting 10 for the rest of the playoffs is because Sullivan (as the only other experienced fullback) got injured, Perofeta was then moved to fullback to fill the spot and Plummer brought back into 10 for the rest of the playoffs.

So I find it difficult to imagine investing time in a guy for the AB's starting 10 spot when he wasn't even the preferred 10 at his own super club.

Even the coaches who spend the most time with him preferred other players we already have access to.

No one is pretending he's the second coming of DC, merely that since he's in the squad we should give him some time to see what a bigger body, that's displayed defensive capability, an ability to make good decisions keeping the ball in front of his forwards and giving his backline time and space could do for the team.

Because let's be honest here, McKenzie was really fucking average on the weekend. And good results come from competition for spots.

Exactly. I don't know why some posters seem to think this is a zero sum game. Just because we should try Plummer doesn't mean we need to bin DMac to do it

Sure. But isn't he just a stop gap until Perofeta comes back?

If our aim is to give players experience in positions we are planning long term, is there any point doing so with Plummer if he's just out of the squad once Perofeta is back?

In which case, isn't it just a better use of the limited tests we have a year to give our actual starting and long term 10 more and more experience as he doesn't even have 10 caps starting at this level in that position?

[canefan]

@kpkanz said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

@kpkanz said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

@Bones said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

@booboo Plummer is 26 and only really in his second season of regular game time. He's hardly over the hill. He also led the champion team around the park excellently.

The Plummer hype needs to die down.

I mean the guys got 75 caps at super level. He's been around for 6 seasons now with plenty of opportunity to make an impression on the coaches yet hasnt been able to nail the starting 10 position at his own club.

For the vast majority of his Blues career when he wasnt behind Beauden, he was still behind Perofeta and Otere Black ffs. The only starts he got were when both of them were injured.

The Blues in 2021 won Super Rugby Trans Ta$man with Otere Black, with Plummer sitting on the bench.

Even this year in his breakthrough year, Plummer wasn't the preferred 10.
Perofeta started at 10 for the first 6 rounds until he got injured.

The Blues record at that time, with Perofeta leading before injury was 5-1 (only losing to the top of the table Hurricanes).

Only once Perofeta got injured did Plummer get the starting 10 spot. Perofeta only came back 2 weeks before the knockouts.

A week after coming back he was immediately made starting 10 again.

The only reason he didn't continue as starting 10 for the rest of the playoffs is because Sullivan (as the only other experienced fullback) got injured, Perofeta was then moved to fullback to fill the spot and Plummer brought back into 10 for the rest of the playoffs.

So I find it difficult to imagine investing time in a guy for the AB's starting 10 spot when he wasn't even the preferred 10 at his own super club.

Even the coaches who spend the most time with him preferred other players we already have access to.

No one is pretending he's the second coming of DC, merely that since he's in the squad we should give him some time to see what a bigger body, that's displayed defensive capability, an ability to make good decisions keeping the ball in front of his forwards and giving his backline time and space could do for the team.

Because let's be honest here, McKenzie was really fucking average on the weekend. And good results come from competition for spots.

Exactly. I don't know why some posters seem to think this is a zero sum game. Just because we should try Plummer doesn't mean we need to bin DMac to do it

Sure. But isn't he just a stop gap until Perofeta comes back?

If our aim is to give players experience in positions we are planning long term, is there any point doing so with Plummer if he's just out of the squad once Perofeta is back?

In which case, isn't it just a better use of the limited tests we have a year to give our actual starting and long term 10 more and more experience as he doesn't even have 10 caps starting at this level in that position?

I have no faith in Perofeta. He couldn't even get past Plummer at the Blues. Until proven otherwise I don't see him as anything more than a utility, and I think there is greater potential in a few others

[Canes4life]

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

@kpkanz said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

@kpkanz said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

@Bones said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

@booboo Plummer is 26 and only really in his second season of regular game time. He's hardly over the hill. He also led the champion team around the park excellently.

The Plummer hype needs to die down.

I mean the guys got 75 caps at super level. He's been around for 6 seasons now with plenty of opportunity to make an impression on the coaches yet hasnt been able to nail the starting 10 position at his own club.

For the vast majority of his Blues career when he wasnt behind Beauden, he was still behind Perofeta and Otere Black ffs. The only starts he got were when both of them were injured.

The Blues in 2021 won Super Rugby Trans Ta$man with Otere Black, with Plummer sitting on the bench.

Even this year in his breakthrough year, Plummer wasn't the preferred 10.
Perofeta started at 10 for the first 6 rounds until he got injured.

The Blues record at that time, with Perofeta leading before injury was 5-1 (only losing to the top of the table Hurricanes).

Only once Perofeta got injured did Plummer get the starting 10 spot. Perofeta only came back 2 weeks before the knockouts.

A week after coming back he was immediately made starting 10 again.

The only reason he didn't continue as starting 10 for the rest of the playoffs is because Sullivan (as the only other experienced fullback) got injured, Perofeta was then moved to fullback to fill the spot and Plummer brought back into 10 for the rest of the playoffs.

So I find it difficult to imagine investing time in a guy for the AB's starting 10 spot when he wasn't even the preferred 10 at his own super club.

Even the coaches who spend the most time with him preferred other players we already have access to.

No one is pretending he's the second coming of DC, merely that since he's in the squad we should give him some time to see what a bigger body, that's displayed defensive capability, an ability to make good decisions keeping the ball in front of his forwards and giving his backline time and space could do for the team.

Because let's be honest here, McKenzie was really fucking average on the weekend. And good results come from competition for spots.

Exactly. I don't know why some posters seem to think this is a zero sum game. Just because we should try Plummer doesn't mean we need to bin DMac to do it

Sure. But isn't he just a stop gap until Perofeta comes back?

If our aim is to give players experience in positions we are planning long term, is there any point doing so with Plummer if he's just out of the squad once Perofeta is back?

In which case, isn't it just a better use of the limited tests we have a year to give our actual starting and long term 10 more and more experience as he doesn't even have 10 caps starting at this level in that position?

I have no faith in Perofeta. He couldn't even get past Plummer at the Blues. Until proven otherwise I don't see him as anything more than a utility, and I think there is greater potential in a few others

Yeah Perofeta is not the answer, I'm hoping the only reason he made the ABs was because of MacDonald. Let's hope we don't see him again.

[Kirwan]

Players can, you know, get better? Good thing Nonu wasn't written off early in his career when he was a bit shit.

We need to reward Super Rugby form, and not write off 26 year olds. Obviously. It's not like there are a ton of 10 options, what happens if DMac breaks his leg tomorrow? Who backs up BB? Is BB the best option?

You need to try the next cab off the rank. This year, that was Plummer. Helps he plays a test match style game that the ABs seem to have forgotten how to play.

[Canes4life]

@Kirwan said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

We need to reward Super Rugby form

The main argument is that he didn't have much Super form. In a dominant team he wasn't exactly dominant so when his name was read out in the first squad of the year it definitely turned heads.

Love was by far the better fullback in Super Rugby and deserves a crack before Perofeta gets another opportunity. I'm not saying Perofeta won't get another opportunity but it would be nice to see him carve up Super Rugby before that opportunity to wear the black jersey presents itself again.

From what I saw of the Blues and how Plummer guided them to a title, I'd much prefer him in the 10 jersey at this point if you are comparing him to Perofeta as a 10.

Perofeta also comes across as a bit of a meek character, I don't think that's what the ABs need right now. Plummer seems to have a bit of dog in him and I think that could serve him well if he makes the step up to international footy.

[KiwiMurph]

Plummer displayed the qualities of a test 10 this season.

Smart decision making

Smart tactical kicking

Excellent under the high ball

Has a knack of kicking clutch goals

Whilst he's also a big body he's also a better athlete than given credit for.

His punting this season really improved - noticeable length on his exits.

He deserves a chance to see what he can do.

[nostrildamus]

@Kirwan said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

Players can, you know, get better? Good thing Nonu wasn't written off early in his career when he was a bit shit.

We need to reward Super Rugby form, and not write off 26 year olds. Obviously. It's not like there are a ton of 10 options, what happens if DMac breaks his leg tomorrow? Who backs up BB? Is BB the best option?

You need to try the next cab off the rank. This year, that was Plummer. Helps he plays a test match style game that the ABs seem to have forgotten how to play.

That last part was exactly what I was going to write. And if we learn anything from RWC, one or two 10s is risky business.

I'd add that while I am not sure where Perofeta is stronger on a good day than DMac at 10, at 15 he has (and surprisingly to me at this level) looked like one of our most composed and effective fullbacks

Early days, of course.

[nostrildamus]

Nb I hope this doesn't become a provincial squabble. Would like to see Love at 15 too. Surely there is more license to try various 15s than say an inner back.

[nostrildamus]

Maybe someone should ask Vern who he prefers at 10.
Does he do breakfast? Or just feast on small sharks during an early morning swim in the Waitemata.

[canefan]

@Kirwan said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:

Players can, you know, get better? Good thing Nonu wasn't written off early in his career when he was a bit shit.

We need to reward Super Rugby form, and not write off 26 year olds. Obviously. It's not like there are a ton of 10 options, what happens if DMac breaks his leg tomorrow? Who backs up BB? Is BB the best option?

You need to try the next cab off the rank. This year, that was Plummer. Helps he plays a test match style game that the ABs seem to have forgotten how to play.

If we're just talking about Plummer I'm all for giving him a proper crack. They will learn nothing if they throw him on with the other subs for 20 scrappy minutes

[Canes4life]

If we win the first test against the Wallabies in Sydney I'd love this backline to get a run in Wellington.

9. Ratima 10. Plummer 11. Clarke 12. ALB 13. Proctor 14. Jordan 15. Love.