NZ First Five Crisis
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I don't know why Jordie takes the line kicks. DMac doesn't have any trouble with them for the Chiefs so why doesn't he do it? Do they have comps at training and Jordie kicks longer, then goes and fires pop guns in the actual games.
@brodean Lowe's long punt was a thing of beauty. Could attack too. Wonder if he would have met the current lot's both sides of the ball requirements?
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I don't know why Jordie takes the line kicks. DMac doesn't have any trouble with them for the Chiefs so why doesn't he do it? Do they have comps at training and Jordie kicks longer, then goes and fires pop guns in the actual games.
@brodean Lowe's long punt was a thing of beauty. Could attack too. Wonder if he would have met the current lot's both sides of the ball requirements?
@Nepia said in NZ First Five Crisis:
I don't know why Jordie takes the line kicks. DMac doesn't have any trouble with them for the Chiefs so why doesn't he do it? Do they have comps at training and Jordie kicks longer, then goes and fires pop guns in the actual games.
@brodean Lowe's long punt was a thing of beauty. Could attack too. Wonder if he would have met the current lot's both sides of the ball requirements?
Jordie takes line kicks and DMac takes penalty shots from 45m +
Get with the program dude
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@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@dogmeat said in NZ First Five Crisis:
Doing the fundamentals right 99% of the time and playing the percentages doesn't jiggle NZ rugby's ovaries nowadays.
And that's why we don't win as many Tests anymore. Rugby is about doing the fundamentals right 99% of the time much more than it is about 3 second miracle plays that go viral on TicTok.
We used to pick Fox over Botica, Merhts over Spencer. Because the best AB 10s were outstanding game managers, with accurate kicking games "off the tee" and in general play. DC was the Unicorn. And now I agree the pendulum has swung too far the other way. And that is why I want to at least see a throwback like Plummer have a go. Nothing wrong with a guy who is very good at kicking goals and kicking for territory, who is happy to pass the ball to his outsides most of the time but isn't afraid to have a dig every once in a while
@canefan Some time between the 2015 World Cup and the 2017 Lions series, Steve Hansen and Steve Tew decided our DNA was to be the Great Entertainers and we have had an unbalanced game plan and set of selection criteria even since.
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
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@canefan Some time between the 2015 World Cup and the 2017 Lions series, Steve Hansen and Steve Tew decided our DNA was to be the Great Entertainers and we have had an unbalanced game plan and set of selection criteria even since.
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
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@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
It's a little unfair to not point out that he was mentally limited too.
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@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
It's a little unfair to not point out that he was mentally limited too.
@reprobate said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
It's a little unfair to not point out that he was mentally limited too.
he was a fucking rugby genius at times. Fair play to him, he implemented the gameplan that took them to number 1 in the world.
Still filth though, dropping the elbow into Beaudy in Dublin. Never forget!
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@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
How so ? Big, strong, pretty quick and abrasive ?
Certainly more physical than most 10s.
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@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
How so ? Big, strong, pretty quick and abrasive ?
Certainly more physical than most 10s.
@MN5 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
How so ? Big, strong, pretty quick and abrasive ?
Certainly more physical than most 10s.
You'd put him behind Carter, Cruden, Mo'unga, DMac in terms of physical gifts though - I don't think he was quick - but really smart rugby brain and played the quarterback role brilliantly.
HOnest question: is my recollection that wrong? I did not think he had much going for him physically
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Seems most people are happier with DMac than I am, and are also keen to see Plummer to get a crack. I still maintain that neither of them are close to that superstar level though, so my question remains who is the next star? Have they debuted at First Class level yet?
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@MN5 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
How so ? Big, strong, pretty quick and abrasive ?
Certainly more physical than most 10s.
You'd put him behind Carter, Cruden, Mo'unga, DMac in terms of physical gifts though - I don't think he was quick - but really smart rugby brain and played the quarterback role brilliantly.
HOnest question: is my recollection that wrong? I did not think he had much going for him physically
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@MN5 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
How so ? Big, strong, pretty quick and abrasive ?
Certainly more physical than most 10s.
You'd put him behind Carter, Cruden, Mo'unga, DMac in terms of physical gifts though - I don't think he was quick - but really smart rugby brain and played the quarterback role brilliantly.
HOnest question: is my recollection that wrong? I did not think he had much going for him physically
I said pretty quick
Yes, those guys listed would all be quicker I’d imagine….
But you mentioned physical so I instantly defaulted to the Fox/Merhts/O’Gara type 10 in my head.
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Seems most people are happier with DMac than I am, and are also keen to see Plummer to get a crack. I still maintain that neither of them are close to that superstar level though, so my question remains who is the next star? Have they debuted at First Class level yet?
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
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@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
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@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well but isn't a great playmaker by any stretch.
Aside from the missed kicks at goal, McKenzie was fine in that second match. He didn't look any worse than Mo'unga has previously looked against the Springboks.
Though Mo'unga was not on the same level as a 10 as Cruden, Carter etc (and, frankly, neither was Barrett), so that doesn't really counter your overall point.
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@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
When has Mo'unga ever taken a test against a big opponent by the scruff of the neck?
Also he's reliant on pace, McKenzie can actually pass as well as run. -
@MN5 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
How so ? Big, strong, pretty quick and abrasive ?
Certainly more physical than most 10s.
You'd put him behind Carter, Cruden, Mo'unga, DMac in terms of physical gifts though - I don't think he was quick - but really smart rugby brain and played the quarterback role brilliantly.
HOnest question: is my recollection that wrong? I did not think he had much going for him physically
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@MN5 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
How so ? Big, strong, pretty quick and abrasive ?
Certainly more physical than most 10s.
You'd put him behind Carter, Cruden, Mo'unga, DMac in terms of physical gifts though - I don't think he was quick - but really smart rugby brain and played the quarterback role brilliantly.
HOnest question: is my recollection that wrong? I did not think he had much going for him physically
No, you're 100% right. He was really quite slow, medium-sized, and a pussy.
My mentally limited comment was more a reference to choking than rugby brain. -
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well but isn't a great playmaker by any stretch.
Aside from the missed kicks at goal, McKenzie was fine in that second match. He didn't look any worse than Mo'unga has previously looked against the Springboks.
Though Mo'unga was not on the same level as a 10 as Cruden, Carter etc (and, frankly, neither was Barrett), so that doesn't really counter your overall point.
@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well
Given Pollard has won back-to-back World Cups I would say he is underrated and doing the basics very well is what being an international Number 10 is all about.
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@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well
Given Pollard has won back-to-back World Cups I would say he is underrated and doing the basics very well is what being an international Number 10 is all about.
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well
Given Pollard has won back-to-back World Cups I would say he is underrated and doing the basics very well is what being an international Number 10 is all about.
you need a low error rate. Making consistently good decisions - SexBomb as well. Wouldn't mind seeing how Plummer's game goes there too - not pretending he's a world beater, but the Blues style seems to map pretty well to Tests
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It beggars belief to me that the All Blacks' exit work has been consistently appalling since 2016. It's as though successive coaches don't see this basic, fundamental part of the game as terribly important.
Game after game after game poor exit work has put their sides under needless pressure.
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@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well
Given Pollard has won back-to-back World Cups I would say he is underrated and doing the basics very well is what being an international Number 10 is all about.
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well
Given Pollard has won back-to-back World Cups I would say he is underrated and doing the basics very well is what being an international Number 10 is all about.
Does that mean that every Springbok who's won back-to-back WCs is underrated...?
I'm not suggesting the basics aren't important, but he's very much a cog in the Springboks machine.
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It beggars belief to me that the All Blacks' exit work has been consistently appalling since 2016. It's as though successive coaches don't see this basic, fundamental part of the game as terribly important.
Game after game after game poor exit work has put their sides under needless pressure.
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
It beggars belief to me that the All Blacks' exit work has been consistently appalling since 2016. It's as though successive coaches don't see this basic, fundamental part of the game as terribly important.
Game after game after game poor exit work has put their sides under needless pressure.
What do you suggest they do to improve the exits? I think they are incredibly hamstrung in this department from a lack of a consistently accurate long punter.
