All Blacks XV 2024
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Jacob Ratumaitavuki-Kneepkens has undergone neck surgery after sustaining a broken neck on the weekend against Ta$man. Due another surgery later in the week. Hope that it’s not career threatening. Could explain his omission from the AB XV. Feel for the guy.
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@Chris-B people are wildly overstating Frizzel's one single OKish performance in black. "Unfortunately for Akira, Frizzel played a blinder vs South Africa and slammed the door shut." Give me a break, here is the MOTM polls for the match - https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/5493/all-blacks-motm-v-boks-ii?page=1
Frizzel got just 6% of the vote, yet he played such a blinder that he slammed the door shut on the 6 position?! I've read a couple of match summaries and none even mention Frizzel, ST was the stand-out performer for us that day.
It's pretty clear that Ryan coached him for a year, couldn't get the best out of him as Ryan is not a great coach as he can only seem to work with certain personality types, so dropped him for women beater Frizzel. That ended up costing us dearly, especially in the RWC final where he put in one of the worst performances of an AB 6 of all time.
@No-Quarter Unfortunately, that's not the right poll.
https://forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/6092/all-blacks-motm-v-boks?page=1
Frizz killed it!
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@Chris-B people are wildly overstating Frizzel's one single OKish performance in black. "Unfortunately for Akira, Frizzel played a blinder vs South Africa and slammed the door shut." Give me a break, here is the MOTM polls for the match - https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/5493/all-blacks-motm-v-boks-ii?page=1
Frizzel got just 6% of the vote, yet he played such a blinder that he slammed the door shut on the 6 position?! I've read a couple of match summaries and none even mention Frizzel, ST was the stand-out performer for us that day.
It's pretty clear that Ryan coached him for a year, couldn't get the best out of him as Ryan is not a great coach as he can only seem to work with certain personality types, so dropped him for women beater Frizzel. That ended up costing us dearly, especially in the RWC final where he put in one of the worst performances of an AB 6 of all time.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks XV 2024:
@Chris-B people are wildly overstating Frizzel's one single OKish performance in black. "Unfortunately for Akira, Frizzel played a blinder vs South Africa and slammed the door shut." Give me a break, here is the MOTM polls for the match - https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/5493/all-blacks-motm-v-boks-ii?page=1
Frizzel got just 6% of the vote, yet he played such a blinder that he slammed the door shut on the 6 position?! I've read a couple of match summaries and none even mention Frizzel, ST was the stand-out performer for us that day.
It's pretty clear that Ryan coached him for a year, couldn't get the best out of his as Ryan is not a great coach as he can only seem to work with certain personality types, so dropped him for women beater Frizzel. That ended up costing us dearly, especially in the RWC final where he put in one of the worst performances of an AB 6 of all time.
Frizell has been a myth since his selection from the SR bench. Aside from @Chris-B's trolling I'm unsure why anyone rates him, but after that one off game in South Africa there were a whole bunch of Frizell-stans, but then weirdly when he puts in one of the worst loose forward performances ever in a crucial game (hell he was our worst loose forward ion that match and one of the others got red carded 27 minutes in) then one off games no longer count.
I'm in general supportive of Razor, despite not agreeing with a bunch of selections, but if they bring back the Tongan thug I'm joining the anti-Razor brigade.
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@Chris-B that will teach me for multi tasking while on a meeting! haha
Edit - Ah, I see we are talking about different matches. People often refer to SA 2 in SA which saved Fozzies job, you are talking about the smacking we have them in Auckland.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks XV 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks XV 2024:
Razor said his closest call was between Sotutu and Sititi and much of the past week has been veiled insinuations that he'll be shown to be a lying fuck. The jury is in and it's found in favour of Razor.
On Akira, there's been a lot of hypothetical conversations posited about what was said between him and Razor. I have no idea and I occasionally suspect some posters of being Akira (or his Mum), so if they actually know something they should come out and say it.
But the selection patterns do not say that Ryan had no interest in him.
If Razor is selecting the AB XV, then he's lumped Sotutu with the likes of McAlister, Ah Kuoi, Kirifi, Lio-Willie, McLeod, Fihaki and Stevenson...
Well, as I said to Frank the other day, what does logic tell you?
Hoskins has made the NZ A team.
Is it as good as making the ABs? No it's not.
Is it better than not making the NZ A team. Yes it is.
A few minor caveats on that, but broadly, that seems logical to me.
And if the AB selectors pick you for the A team it seems to me they're showing a degree of interest in you. That's a good thing.
This is my logical framework.
What evidence do we have fatty Ryan had any interest in the form blindside flanker of Super Rugby?
Well, Ryan's first test in charge of the ABs was against South Africa at Mbombela. His starting blindside flanker was Akira Ioane. Frizell came from the bench.
The next week they swapped them round, we won, there were delegations in the night and Fozzie was saved.
For the rest of the season, Frizell, Akira and Scott Barrett batted the 6 role among them. All of them got picked for the EOYT.
Akira played in 7 tests in 2022 under Ryan's watch. Seems like incredibly strong evidence that Ryan had an interest in him.
In 2023, we had Super rugby and Akira's season ended with the Blues getting badly thrashed by a pretty makeshift Crusaders team, which probably wasn't helpful for him.
But, the important part is that there were three significant selection waypoints in 2023.
The AB team for the Rugby Championship - Frizell got picked, Akira didn't.
The NZ A team - Akira got picked - and this is the crucial point. According to my logical framework, the selectors were still showing an interest in him.
Unfortunately for Akira, Frizell played a blinder vs South Africa and slammed the door shut.
The third selection waypoint was the World Cup squad.
And that's where the selection patterns as far as Akira is concerned end.
The next important thing I heard was that Akira had signed in Japan. I don't know about you, but at that point I drew a big fat line through his AB chances.
Sure enough - at the next selection waypoint - the team for England, he didn't get picked. I was not surprised.
KiwiMurph said he wouldn't have departed if the selectors had interest in him.
I said the selection patterns do not say that Ryan had no interest in him.
Some other things we know are that Frizell has fucked off to Japan and with the departure of Whitelock and Retallick it's highly unlikely Scott Barrett would be playing 6.
That still left the likes of Blackadder, Jacobson and Finau to be overcome, but my observation is that Akira is a good enough player to have competed with them.
So all that being said, it doesn't seem very logical to me that the selectors would have told him they have no interest in him - but, that is just speculation. I have no knowledge of those conversations.
I feel I'm being gaslit.
You should try being me!
@Chris-B said in All Blacks XV 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks XV 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks XV 2024:
Razor said his closest call was between Sotutu and Sititi and much of the past week has been veiled insinuations that he'll be shown to be a lying fuck. The jury is in and it's found in favour of Razor.
On Akira, there's been a lot of hypothetical conversations posited about what was said between him and Razor. I have no idea and I occasionally suspect some posters of being Akira (or his Mum), so if they actually know something they should come out and say it.
But the selection patterns do not say that Ryan had no interest in him.
If Razor is selecting the AB XV, then he's lumped Sotutu with the likes of McAlister, Ah Kuoi, Kirifi, Lio-Willie, McLeod, Fihaki and Stevenson...
Well, as I said to Frank the other day, what does logic tell you?
Hoskins has made the NZ A team.
Is it as good as making the ABs? No it's not.
Is it better than not making the NZ A team. Yes it is.
A few minor caveats on that, but broadly, that seems logical to me.
And if the AB selectors pick you for the A team it seems to me they're showing a degree of interest in you. That's a good thing.
This is my logical framework.
What evidence do we have fatty Ryan had any interest in the form blindside flanker of Super Rugby?
Well, Ryan's first test in charge of the ABs was against South Africa at Mbombela. His starting blindside flanker was Akira Ioane. Frizell came from the bench.
So we're going back to 2022 to discuss the form of players in this year's competition? If Ryan was instrumental in selecting Akira for that fixture, he's also the person that thought Bower and Ta'avao should start over de Groot and Lomax.
The next week they swapped them round, we won, there were delegations in the night and Fozzie was saved.
For the rest of the season, Frizell, Akira and Scott Barrett batted the 6 role among them. All of them got picked for the EOYT.
Akira played in 7 tests in 2022 under Ryan's watch. Seems like incredibly strong evidence that Ryan had an interest in him.
By played you mean was already in the squad and sat on the bench other than starting against the Wallabies and Scotland.
In 2023, we had Super rugby and Akira's season ended with the Blues getting badly thrashed by a pretty makeshift Crusaders team, which probably wasn't helpful for him.
But, the important part is that there were three significant selection waypoints in 2023.
The AB team for the Rugby Championship - Frizell got picked, Akira didn't.
And Samipeni Finau got selected over Akira.
The NZ A team - Akira got picked - and this is the crucial point. According to my logical framework, the selectors were still showing an interest in him.
The pecking order is the important aspect and those coaches (bar Ryan) are no longer there.
Unfortunately for Akira, Frizell played a blinder vs South Africa and slammed the door shut.
The third selection waypoint was the World Cup squad.
And that's where the selection patterns as far as Akira is concerned end.
The next important thing I heard was that Akira had signed in Japan. I don't know about you, but at that point I drew a big fat line through his AB chances.
And why did he sign..? I'd suggest that a statistical outlier for Shannon was irrelevant - Akira was already viewed as surplus.
Sure enough - at the next selection waypoint - the team for England, he didn't get picked. I was not surprised.
KiwiMurph said he wouldn't have departed if the selectors had interest in him.
I said the selection patterns do not say that Ryan had no interest in him.
I think it's clear that a squad Ryan inherits and plays Scott or Shannon in preference to Akira, and then with the opportunity for a fresh slate, goes with a newb over Akira sends a strong message. A message backed up with ignoring the two form loosies in SR.
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@Chris-B that will teach me for multi tasking while on a meeting! haha
Edit - Ah, I see we are talking about different matches. People often refer to SA 2 in SA which saved Fozzies job, you are talking about the smacking we have them in Auckland.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks XV 2024:
@Chris-B that will teach me for multi tasking while on a meeting! haha
Edit - Ah, I see we are talking about different matches. People often refer to SA 2 in SA which saved Fozzies job, you are talking about the smacking we have them in Auckland.
Yes - if Frizell had played poorly in that Auckland game, it is quite possible in my mind Akira might have got a recall and gone to RWC.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks XV 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks XV 2024:
Razor said his closest call was between Sotutu and Sititi and much of the past week has been veiled insinuations that he'll be shown to be a lying fuck. The jury is in and it's found in favour of Razor.
On Akira, there's been a lot of hypothetical conversations posited about what was said between him and Razor. I have no idea and I occasionally suspect some posters of being Akira (or his Mum), so if they actually know something they should come out and say it.
But the selection patterns do not say that Ryan had no interest in him.
If Razor is selecting the AB XV, then he's lumped Sotutu with the likes of McAlister, Ah Kuoi, Kirifi, Lio-Willie, McLeod, Fihaki and Stevenson...
Well, as I said to Frank the other day, what does logic tell you?
Hoskins has made the NZ A team.
Is it as good as making the ABs? No it's not.
Is it better than not making the NZ A team. Yes it is.
A few minor caveats on that, but broadly, that seems logical to me.
And if the AB selectors pick you for the A team it seems to me they're showing a degree of interest in you. That's a good thing.
This is my logical framework.
What evidence do we have fatty Ryan had any interest in the form blindside flanker of Super Rugby?
Well, Ryan's first test in charge of the ABs was against South Africa at Mbombela. His starting blindside flanker was Akira Ioane. Frizell came from the bench.
The next week they swapped them round, we won, there were delegations in the night and Fozzie was saved.
For the rest of the season, Frizell, Akira and Scott Barrett batted the 6 role among them. All of them got picked for the EOYT.
Akira played in 7 tests in 2022 under Ryan's watch. Seems like incredibly strong evidence that Ryan had an interest in him.
In 2023, we had Super rugby and Akira's season ended with the Blues getting badly thrashed by a pretty makeshift Crusaders team, which probably wasn't helpful for him.
But, the important part is that there were three significant selection waypoints in 2023.
The AB team for the Rugby Championship - Frizell got picked, Akira didn't.
The NZ A team - Akira got picked - and this is the crucial point. According to my logical framework, the selectors were still showing an interest in him.
Unfortunately for Akira, Frizell played a blinder vs South Africa and slammed the door shut.
The third selection waypoint was the World Cup squad.
And that's where the selection patterns as far as Akira is concerned end.
The next important thing I heard was that Akira had signed in Japan. I don't know about you, but at that point I drew a big fat line through his AB chances.
Sure enough - at the next selection waypoint - the team for England, he didn't get picked. I was not surprised.
KiwiMurph said he wouldn't have departed if the selectors had interest in him.
I said the selection patterns do not say that Ryan had no interest in him.
Some other things we know are that Frizell has fucked off to Japan and with the departure of Whitelock and Retallick it's highly unlikely Scott Barrett would be playing 6.
That still left the likes of Blackadder, Jacobson and Finau to be overcome, but my observation is that Akira is a good enough player to have competed with them.
So all that being said, it doesn't seem very logical to me that the selectors would have told him they have no interest in him - but, that is just speculation. I have no knowledge of those conversations.
I feel I'm being gaslit.
You should try being me!
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Jacob Ratumaitavuki-Kneepkens has undergone neck surgery after sustaining a broken neck on the weekend against Ta$man. Due another surgery later in the week. Hope that it’s not career threatening. Could explain his omission from the AB XV. Feel for the guy.
@Landers92 said in All Blacks XV 2024:
Jacob Ratumaitavuki-Kneepkens has undergone neck surgery after sustaining a broken neck on the weekend against Ta$man. Due another surgery later in the week. Hope that it’s not career threatening. Could explain his omission from the AB XV. Feel for the guy.
Probably that scum hit by Shalfoon. He actually smiled that he got away with it. Very poor from the officials. Should have been red.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks XV 2024:
@Chris-B people are wildly overstating Frizzel's one single OKish performance in black. "Unfortunately for Akira, Frizzel played a blinder vs South Africa and slammed the door shut." Give me a break, here is the MOTM polls for the match - https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/5493/all-blacks-motm-v-boks-ii?page=1
Frizzel got just 6% of the vote, yet he played such a blinder that he slammed the door shut on the 6 position?! I've read a couple of match summaries and none even mention Frizzel, ST was the stand-out performer for us that day.
It's pretty clear that Ryan coached him for a year, couldn't get the best out of his as Ryan is not a great coach as he can only seem to work with certain personality types, so dropped him for women beater Frizzel. That ended up costing us dearly, especially in the RWC final where he put in one of the worst performances of an AB 6 of all time.
Frizell has been a myth since his selection from the SR bench. Aside from @Chris-B's trolling I'm unsure why anyone rates him, but after that one off game in South Africa there were a whole bunch of Frizell-stans, but then weirdly when he puts in one of the worst loose forward performances ever in a crucial game (hell he was our worst loose forward ion that match and one of the others got red carded 27 minutes in) then one off games no longer count.
I'm in general supportive of Razor, despite not agreeing with a bunch of selections, but if they bring back the Tongan thug I'm joining the anti-Razor brigade.
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They finally gave him a starting run against the Rebels and the Crusaders finally managed a decent win - only to drop him the following week for Havili. Reihana had a strong game. How can you expect a player to play with confidence when they're giving a lot more starting opportunities to Hohepa and Havili?
@brodean said in All Blacks XV 2024:
They finally gave him a starting run against the Rebels and the Crusaders finally managed a decent win - only to drop him the following week for Havili. Reihana had a strong game. How can you expect a player to play with confidence when they're giving a lot more starting opportunities to Hohepa and Havili?
He injured his shoulder which gave them a chance to play Havilli he wasn’t dropoed
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@brodean said in All Blacks XV 2024:
They finally gave him a starting run against the Rebels and the Crusaders finally managed a decent win - only to drop him the following week for Havili. Reihana had a strong game. How can you expect a player to play with confidence when they're giving a lot more starting opportunities to Hohepa and Havili?
He injured his shoulder which gave them a chance to play Havilli he wasn’t dropoed
@Chris said in All Blacks XV 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks XV 2024:
They finally gave him a starting run against the Rebels and the Crusaders finally managed a decent win - only to drop him the following week for Havili. Reihana had a strong game. How can you expect a player to play with confidence when they're giving a lot more starting opportunities to Hohepa and Havili?
He injured his shoulder which gave them a chance to play Havilli he wasn’t dropoed
Why did he get selected and come off the bench in the game after the Rebels if he had an injured shoulder?
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I think Frizell has had a very inconsistent AB's career being both good and poor.
I'd say the same thing about Sam Cane in the 20's. Even this year Sam Cane has been a real mixed bag. It's rare that he puts together a string of performances where he's firing on all cylinders. For example I thought his breakdown work was good against the Wallabies but his defense was poor.
I don't think Cane is close to being an 80 minute player anymore.
In the first two losses we had against Argentina both Cane and Frizell had very poor games.
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This tour will be good for Josh Jacomb, because I think he remains a very raw talent. He has a very good running game, but I do worry that at a higher level his lack of game management may get found out?
Not sure he really controls the game with his boot that well (yet)... Perofeta had to dig him out of a couple of holes in that shield game.
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Based on the squad selected I wouldn't mind seeing the 23 below.
- Xavier Numia (25 / Hurricanes / Wellington)
- Kurt Eklund (32 / Blues / Bay of Plenty)
- George Dyer (24/ Chiefs / Waikato)
- Fabian Holland (21 / Highlanders / Otago)
- Josh Lord (23 / Chiefs / Taranaki)*
- Oliver Haig (22 / Highlanders / Otago)
- Peter Lakai (21/ Hurricanes / Wellington)
- Hoskins Sotutu (26 / Blues / Counties Manukau)*
- Finlay Christie (29 / Blues / Ta$man)*
- Harry Plummer (26 / Blues / Auckland)*
- Kiniviliame Naholo (25 / Hurricanes / Taranaki)
- AJ Lam (26 / Blues / Auckland)
- Quinn Tupaea (25 / Chiefs / Waikato)*
- Emoni Narawa (25 / Chiefs / Bay of Plenty)*
- Shaun Stevenson (27 / Chiefs / North Harbour)*
- Bradley Slater (26 / Chiefs / Taranaki)
- George Bower (32 / Crusaders / Otago)*
- Marcel Renata (30 / Blues / Auckland)
- Isaia Walker-Leawere (27 / Hurricanes / Hawke’s Bay)
- Christian Lio-Willie (26 / Crusaders / Otago)
- Noah Hotham (21 / Crusaders / Ta$man)*
- Josh Jacomb (23 / Chiefs / Taranaki)
- Riley Higgins (22 / Hurricanes / Wellington)
@Canes4life said in All Blacks XV 2024:
Fabian Holland (21 / Highlanders / Otago)
Josh Lord (23 / Chiefs / Taranaki)*
Oliver Haig (22 / Highlanders / Otago)
Peter Lakai (21/ Hurricanes / Wellington)
Hoskins Sotutu (26 / Blues / Counties Manukau)*I'd be very interested in seeing that roll out. Holland is playing well, Lord looks to be coming back into the form before injury. Haig looks like another body that could do well on the blindside - from memory he played lock more in Super Rugby? Then add Lakai and Sotutu and we could see some magic.
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This tour will be good for Josh Jacomb, because I think he remains a very raw talent. He has a very good running game, but I do worry that at a higher level his lack of game management may get found out?
Not sure he really controls the game with his boot that well (yet)... Perofeta had to dig him out of a couple of holes in that shield game.
@frugby said in All Blacks XV 2024:
This tour will be good for Josh Jacomb, because I think he remains a very raw talent. He has a very good running game, but I do worry that at a higher level his lack of game management may get found out?
Not sure he really controls the game with his boot that well (yet).. Perofeta had to dig him out of a couple of holes in that shield game.
Sounds perfect for a modern AB 10...
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When you say 'Tongan thug' it seems a bit racist/bigoted. Why can't you just refer to him as a thug? What difference does it make if he has a Tongan background?
I hope he never plays for the ABs again btw.
@brodean said in All Blacks XV 2024:
When you say 'Tongan thug' it seems a bit racist/bigoted. Why can't you just refer to him as a thug? What difference does it make if he has a Tongan background?
I hope he never plays for the ABs again btw.
He's a Tongan national, it's descriptive, nothing more than that. If I was being racist I'd say Polynesian maybe which is closer to the social construct of race.
Maybe I'll change to the Ta$man thug to honour @Chris-B's stirling work as the Ta$man Thug's marketing team.
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So if Sotutu takes the field, that locks him into NZ for 4 years right?
That will put to bed the playing for England nonsense I hope. -
@Canes4life said in All Blacks XV 2024:
Fabian Holland (21 / Highlanders / Otago)
Josh Lord (23 / Chiefs / Taranaki)*
Oliver Haig (22 / Highlanders / Otago)
Peter Lakai (21/ Hurricanes / Wellington)
Hoskins Sotutu (26 / Blues / Counties Manukau)*I'd be very interested in seeing that roll out. Holland is playing well, Lord looks to be coming back into the form before injury. Haig looks like another body that could do well on the blindside - from memory he played lock more in Super Rugby? Then add Lakai and Sotutu and we could see some magic.
@antipodean said in All Blacks XV 2024:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks XV 2024:
Fabian Holland (21 / Highlanders / Otago)
Josh Lord (23 / Chiefs / Taranaki)*
Oliver Haig (22 / Highlanders / Otago)
Peter Lakai (21/ Hurricanes / Wellington)
Hoskins Sotutu (26 / Blues / Counties Manukau)*Haig looks like another body that could do well on the blindside - from memory he played lock more in Super Rugby?
He played predominantly 6. Can squeeze in at lock at a pinch but his position is blindside. 6ft 5, 115kg so he’s built for it. You may have him confused with Hicks who also went between the 2 positions.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks XV 2024:
@Chris-B people are wildly overstating Frizzel's one single OKish performance in black. "Unfortunately for Akira, Frizzel played a blinder vs South Africa and slammed the door shut." Give me a break, here is the MOTM polls for the match - https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/5493/all-blacks-motm-v-boks-ii?page=1
Frizzel got just 6% of the vote, yet he played such a blinder that he slammed the door shut on the 6 position?! I've read a couple of match summaries and none even mention Frizzel, ST was the stand-out performer for us that day.
It's pretty clear that Ryan coached him for a year, couldn't get the best out of his as Ryan is not a great coach as he can only seem to work with certain personality types, so dropped him for women beater Frizzel. That ended up costing us dearly, especially in the RWC final where he put in one of the worst performances of an AB 6 of all time.
Frizell has been a myth since his selection from the SR bench. Aside from @Chris-B's trolling I'm unsure why anyone rates him, but after that one off game in South Africa there were a whole bunch of Frizell-stans, but then weirdly when he puts in one of the worst loose forward performances ever in a crucial game (hell he was our worst loose forward ion that match and one of the others got red carded 27 minutes in) then one off games no longer count.
I'm in general supportive of Razor, despite not agreeing with a bunch of selections, but if they bring back the Tongan thug I'm joining the anti-Razor brigade.
@Nepia said in All Blacks XV 2024:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks XV 2024:
@Chris-B people are wildly overstating Frizzel's one single OKish performance in black. "Unfortunately for Akira, Frizzel played a blinder vs South Africa and slammed the door shut." Give me a break, here is the MOTM polls for the match - https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/5493/all-blacks-motm-v-boks-ii?page=1
Frizzel got just 6% of the vote, yet he played such a blinder that he slammed the door shut on the 6 position?! I've read a couple of match summaries and none even mention Frizzel, ST was the stand-out performer for us that day.
It's pretty clear that Ryan coached him for a year, couldn't get the best out of his as Ryan is not a great coach as he can only seem to work with certain personality types, so dropped him for women beater Frizzel. That ended up costing us dearly, especially in the RWC final where he put in one of the worst performances of an AB 6 of all time.
Frizell has been a myth since his selection from the SR bench. Aside from @Chris-B's trolling I'm unsure why anyone rates him, but after that one off game in South Africa there were a whole bunch of Frizell-stans, but then weirdly when he puts in one of the worst loose forward performances ever in a crucial game (hell he was our worst loose forward ion that match and one of the others got red carded 27 minutes in) then one off games no longer count.
I'm in general supportive of Razor, despite not agreeing with a bunch of selections, but if they bring back the Tongan thug I'm joining the anti-Razor brigade.
im not sure how many frizell advocates there were were on here, i often felt like the only before realising he just wasnt going to kick on
