Wallabies v Pumas, Perth
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Not really going to matter if the forwards can't win decent ball, and the halfback can't get it to them quick enough.
As for "world class defensive patterns" - you mean the ABs? Yeah based on that assumption everyone but the AB flyhalf is shit based on the fact the AB flyhalf never gets to play the ABs. What a conundrum! :thinking:
Look, its easy to take shots from an ebony tower, and you frequently do. But please, justify putting Carter and Steyn in the same bracket, if you're talking about Morne Steyn.
Oh don't play this "poor us Aussies game". You had Genia as the greatest half going a few short years ago, now Cooper has never gotten decent ball.
Obviously his implosions and impotence against the ABs are a huge factor into that simply by the large part they play in the Aussie schedule. Cooper has been weighed and measured by the ABs more than most.
They Boks generally are another decent measuring stick and for the most part and he has been monstered and smothered by them fairly regularly. He has generally performed pretty poorly against the northern teams outside of the June international windows.
If you show me a Quade Cooper highlight reel it's going to be Super Rugby stuff from half a decade ago and him carving up Italy. If that makes him World Class player (a moniker pakman threw out there) I can only imagine how devastating he would been with World Class winger Caleb Ralph outside him and World Class forwards like Troy Flavell and Todd Blackadder securing quick ball - he might almost have been better than that other World Class first five Peter Grant.
To eqaute him with World Class Rupeni Caucau would be an insult to the great Fijian.
Very different prospect feasting on Super Rugby teams with holes in their backline through injury, travel and game plans often concocted in 4days and international defenses. burning Lachie Munro playing on the wing in a Super Rugby semi final and doing cartwheels doesn't means very little in my assessment of how a guy goes at the international game.
Steyn and Carter are mentioned simply because they only 10s in the past 10 years in the 3N/TRC who were remotely world class. Hell, they were the only ones that could hold down their jersey for any length of time. I guess Sanchez is there now too - we assume Barrett gets there soon. Cruden perhaps eventually could have - but certainly looked out of his depth to begin with, but he will never get the tenure. Very different players and very different players Steyn and DC - but both provided an attacking weapon that gave their team a constructive place to attack from.
This isn't to say Cooper isn't a half decent hand at international level. He just isn't remotely World Class.
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Oh don't play this "poor us Aussies game". You had Genia as the greatest half going a few short years ago, now Cooper has never gotten decent ball.
Obviously his implosions and impotence against the ABs are a huge factor into that simply by the large part they play in the Aussie schedule. Cooper has been weighed and measured by the ABs more than most.
They Boks generally are another decent measuring stick and for the most part and he has been monstered and smothered by them fairly regularly. He has generally performed pretty poorly against the northern teams outside of the June international windows.
If you show me a Quade Cooper highlight reel it's going to be Super Rugby stuff from half a decade ago and him carving up Italy. If that makes him World Class player (a moniker pakman threw out there) I can only imagine how devastating he would been with World Class winger Caleb Ralph outside him and World Class forwards like Troy Flavell and Todd Blackadder securing quick ball - he might almost have been better than that other World Class first five Peter Grant.
To eqaute him with World Class Rupeni Caucau would be an insult to the great Fijian.
Very different prospect feasting on Super Rugby teams with holes in their backline through injury, travel and game plans often concocted in 4days and international defenses. burning Lachie Munro playing on the wing in a Super Rugby semi final and doing cartwheels doesn't means very little in my assessment of how a guy goes at the international game.
Steyn and Carter are mentioned simply because they only 10s in the past 10 years in the 3N/TRC who were remotely world class. Hell, they were the only ones that could hold down their jersey for any length of time. I guess Sanchez is there now too - we assume Barrett gets there soon. Cruden perhaps eventually could have - but certainly looked out of his depth to begin with, but he will never get the tenure. Very different players and very different players Steyn and DC - but both provided an attacking weapon that gave their team a constructive place to attack from.
This isn't to say Cooper isn't a half decent hand at international level. He just isn't remotely World Class.
@rotated said in Wallabies v Pumas, Perth:
@NTA
Very different prospect feasting on Super Rugby teams with holes in their backline through injury, travel and game plans often concocted in 4days and international defenses. burning Lachie Munro playing on the wing in a Super Rugby semi final and doing cartwheels doesn't means very little in my assessment of how a guy goes at the international game.Lachie Munro. Fark, I just had flashbacks. That post should have had a trigger warning.
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Oh don't play this "poor us Aussies game". You had Genia as the greatest half going a few short years ago, now Cooper has never gotten decent ball.
Obviously his implosions and impotence against the ABs are a huge factor into that simply by the large part they play in the Aussie schedule. Cooper has been weighed and measured by the ABs more than most.
They Boks generally are another decent measuring stick and for the most part and he has been monstered and smothered by them fairly regularly. He has generally performed pretty poorly against the northern teams outside of the June international windows.
If you show me a Quade Cooper highlight reel it's going to be Super Rugby stuff from half a decade ago and him carving up Italy. If that makes him World Class player (a moniker pakman threw out there) I can only imagine how devastating he would been with World Class winger Caleb Ralph outside him and World Class forwards like Troy Flavell and Todd Blackadder securing quick ball - he might almost have been better than that other World Class first five Peter Grant.
To eqaute him with World Class Rupeni Caucau would be an insult to the great Fijian.
Very different prospect feasting on Super Rugby teams with holes in their backline through injury, travel and game plans often concocted in 4days and international defenses. burning Lachie Munro playing on the wing in a Super Rugby semi final and doing cartwheels doesn't means very little in my assessment of how a guy goes at the international game.
Steyn and Carter are mentioned simply because they only 10s in the past 10 years in the 3N/TRC who were remotely world class. Hell, they were the only ones that could hold down their jersey for any length of time. I guess Sanchez is there now too - we assume Barrett gets there soon. Cruden perhaps eventually could have - but certainly looked out of his depth to begin with, but he will never get the tenure. Very different players and very different players Steyn and DC - but both provided an attacking weapon that gave their team a constructive place to attack from.
This isn't to say Cooper isn't a half decent hand at international level. He just isn't remotely World Class.
@rotated said in Wallabies v Pumas, Perth:
Oh don't play this "poor us Aussies game". You had Genia as the greatest half going a few short years ago, now Cooper has never gotten decent ball.
Obviously his implosions and impotence against the ABs are a huge factor into that simply by the large part they play in the Aussie schedule. Cooper has been weighed and measured by the ABs more than most.
They Boks generally are another decent measuring stick and for the most part and he has been monstered and smothered by them fairly regularly. He has generally performed pretty poorly against the northern teams outside of the June international windows.
If you show me a Quade Cooper highlight reel it's going to be Super Rugby stuff from half a decade ago and him carving up Italy. If that makes him World Class player (a moniker pakman threw out there) I can only imagine how devastating he would been with World Class winger Caleb Ralph outside him and World Class forwards like Troy Flavell and Todd Blackadder securing quick ball - he might almost have been better than that other World Class first five Peter Grant.
To eqaute him with World Class Rupeni Caucau would be an insult to the great Fijian.
Very different prospect feasting on Super Rugby teams with holes in their backline through injury, travel and game plans often concocted in 4days and international defenses. burning Lachie Munro playing on the wing in a Super Rugby semi final and doing cartwheels doesn't means very little in my assessment of how a guy goes at the international game.
Steyn and Carter are mentioned simply because they only 10s in the past 10 years in the 3N/TRC who were remotely world class. Hell, they were the only ones that could hold down their jersey for any length of time. I guess Sanchez is there now too - we assume Barrett gets there soon. Cruden perhaps eventually could have - but certainly looked out of his depth to begin with, but he will never get the tenure. Very different players and very different players Steyn and DC - but both provided an attacking weapon that gave their team a constructive place to attack from.
This isn't to say Cooper isn't a half decent hand at international level. He just isn't remotely World Class.
Hey come on, leave Flavell out of this, he should have been one of our best ever. Not his fault he had no filter system between fists, feet and brain.
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@rotated said in Wallabies v Pumas, Perth:
Oh don't play this "poor us Aussies game". You had Genia as the greatest half going a few short years ago, now Cooper has never gotten decent ball.
Obviously his implosions and impotence against the ABs are a huge factor into that simply by the large part they play in the Aussie schedule. Cooper has been weighed and measured by the ABs more than most.
They Boks generally are another decent measuring stick and for the most part and he has been monstered and smothered by them fairly regularly. He has generally performed pretty poorly against the northern teams outside of the June international windows.
If you show me a Quade Cooper highlight reel it's going to be Super Rugby stuff from half a decade ago and him carving up Italy. If that makes him World Class player (a moniker pakman threw out there) I can only imagine how devastating he would been with World Class winger Caleb Ralph outside him and World Class forwards like Troy Flavell and Todd Blackadder securing quick ball - he might almost have been better than that other World Class first five Peter Grant.
To eqaute him with World Class Rupeni Caucau would be an insult to the great Fijian.
Very different prospect feasting on Super Rugby teams with holes in their backline through injury, travel and game plans often concocted in 4days and international defenses. burning Lachie Munro playing on the wing in a Super Rugby semi final and doing cartwheels doesn't means very little in my assessment of how a guy goes at the international game.
Steyn and Carter are mentioned simply because they only 10s in the past 10 years in the 3N/TRC who were remotely world class. Hell, they were the only ones that could hold down their jersey for any length of time. I guess Sanchez is there now too - we assume Barrett gets there soon. Cruden perhaps eventually could have - but certainly looked out of his depth to begin with, but he will never get the tenure. Very different players and very different players Steyn and DC - but both provided an attacking weapon that gave their team a constructive place to attack from.
This isn't to say Cooper isn't a half decent hand at international level. He just isn't remotely World Class.
Hey come on, leave Flavell out of this, he should have been one of our best ever. Not his fault he had no filter system between fists, feet and brain.
@MN5 said in Wallabies v Pumas, Perth:
@rotated said in Wallabies v Pumas, Perth:
Oh don't play this "poor us Aussies game". You had Genia as the greatest half going a few short years ago, now Cooper has never gotten decent ball.
Obviously his implosions and impotence against the ABs are a huge factor into that simply by the large part they play in the Aussie schedule. Cooper has been weighed and measured by the ABs more than most.
They Boks generally are another decent measuring stick and for the most part and he has been monstered and smothered by them fairly regularly. He has generally performed pretty poorly against the northern teams outside of the June international windows.
If you show me a Quade Cooper highlight reel it's going to be Super Rugby stuff from half a decade ago and him carving up Italy. If that makes him World Class player (a moniker pakman threw out there) I can only imagine how devastating he would been with World Class winger Caleb Ralph outside him and World Class forwards like Troy Flavell and Todd Blackadder securing quick ball - he might almost have been better than that other World Class first five Peter Grant.
To eqaute him with World Class Rupeni Caucau would be an insult to the great Fijian.
Very different prospect feasting on Super Rugby teams with holes in their backline through injury, travel and game plans often concocted in 4days and international defenses. burning Lachie Munro playing on the wing in a Super Rugby semi final and doing cartwheels doesn't means very little in my assessment of how a guy goes at the international game.
Steyn and Carter are mentioned simply because they only 10s in the past 10 years in the 3N/TRC who were remotely world class. Hell, they were the only ones that could hold down their jersey for any length of time. I guess Sanchez is there now too - we assume Barrett gets there soon. Cruden perhaps eventually could have - but certainly looked out of his depth to begin with, but he will never get the tenure. Very different players and very different players Steyn and DC - but both provided an attacking weapon that gave their team a constructive place to attack from.
This isn't to say Cooper isn't a half decent hand at international level. He just isn't remotely World Class.
Hey come one, leave Flavell out of this, he should have been one of our best ever. Not his fault he had no filter system between fists, feet and brain.
Sorry substitute Flavell for Cribb if you must - I just didn't want to rile up the Cantabs while already dealing with the Aussies.
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@MN5 said in Wallabies v Pumas, Perth:
@rotated said in Wallabies v Pumas, Perth:
Oh don't play this "poor us Aussies game". You had Genia as the greatest half going a few short years ago, now Cooper has never gotten decent ball.
Obviously his implosions and impotence against the ABs are a huge factor into that simply by the large part they play in the Aussie schedule. Cooper has been weighed and measured by the ABs more than most.
They Boks generally are another decent measuring stick and for the most part and he has been monstered and smothered by them fairly regularly. He has generally performed pretty poorly against the northern teams outside of the June international windows.
If you show me a Quade Cooper highlight reel it's going to be Super Rugby stuff from half a decade ago and him carving up Italy. If that makes him World Class player (a moniker pakman threw out there) I can only imagine how devastating he would been with World Class winger Caleb Ralph outside him and World Class forwards like Troy Flavell and Todd Blackadder securing quick ball - he might almost have been better than that other World Class first five Peter Grant.
To eqaute him with World Class Rupeni Caucau would be an insult to the great Fijian.
Very different prospect feasting on Super Rugby teams with holes in their backline through injury, travel and game plans often concocted in 4days and international defenses. burning Lachie Munro playing on the wing in a Super Rugby semi final and doing cartwheels doesn't means very little in my assessment of how a guy goes at the international game.
Steyn and Carter are mentioned simply because they only 10s in the past 10 years in the 3N/TRC who were remotely world class. Hell, they were the only ones that could hold down their jersey for any length of time. I guess Sanchez is there now too - we assume Barrett gets there soon. Cruden perhaps eventually could have - but certainly looked out of his depth to begin with, but he will never get the tenure. Very different players and very different players Steyn and DC - but both provided an attacking weapon that gave their team a constructive place to attack from.
This isn't to say Cooper isn't a half decent hand at international level. He just isn't remotely World Class.
Hey come one, leave Flavell out of this, he should have been one of our best ever. Not his fault he had no filter system between fists, feet and brain.
Sorry substitute Flavell for Cribb if you must - I just didn't want to rile up the Cantabs while already dealing with the Aussies.
@rotated said in Wallabies v Pumas, Perth:
@MN5 said in Wallabies v Pumas, Perth:
@rotated said in Wallabies v Pumas, Perth:
Oh don't play this "poor us Aussies game". You had Genia as the greatest half going a few short years ago, now Cooper has never gotten decent ball.
Obviously his implosions and impotence against the ABs are a huge factor into that simply by the large part they play in the Aussie schedule. Cooper has been weighed and measured by the ABs more than most.
They Boks generally are another decent measuring stick and for the most part and he has been monstered and smothered by them fairly regularly. He has generally performed pretty poorly against the northern teams outside of the June international windows.
If you show me a Quade Cooper highlight reel it's going to be Super Rugby stuff from half a decade ago and him carving up Italy. If that makes him World Class player (a moniker pakman threw out there) I can only imagine how devastating he would been with World Class winger Caleb Ralph outside him and World Class forwards like Troy Flavell and Todd Blackadder securing quick ball - he might almost have been better than that other World Class first five Peter Grant.
To eqaute him with World Class Rupeni Caucau would be an insult to the great Fijian.
Very different prospect feasting on Super Rugby teams with holes in their backline through injury, travel and game plans often concocted in 4days and international defenses. burning Lachie Munro playing on the wing in a Super Rugby semi final and doing cartwheels doesn't means very little in my assessment of how a guy goes at the international game.
Steyn and Carter are mentioned simply because they only 10s in the past 10 years in the 3N/TRC who were remotely world class. Hell, they were the only ones that could hold down their jersey for any length of time. I guess Sanchez is there now too - we assume Barrett gets there soon. Cruden perhaps eventually could have - but certainly looked out of his depth to begin with, but he will never get the tenure. Very different players and very different players Steyn and DC - but both provided an attacking weapon that gave their team a constructive place to attack from.
This isn't to say Cooper isn't a half decent hand at international level. He just isn't remotely World Class.
Hey come one, leave Flavell out of this, he should have been one of our best ever. Not his fault he had no filter system between fists, feet and brain.
Sorry substitute Flavell for Cribb if you must - I just didn't want to rile up the Cantabs while already dealing with the Aussies.
Well they can't quibble about Blackadder, he gave it his all and performed as best he could.
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@pakman said in Wallabies v Pumas, Perth:
Cooper is a world class attacker.Not to rehash the whole Cooper thing, but what world class defensive patterns has he had success against? I would think this is a prerequisite to being labelled world class himself?
Both Cooper and Foley are far from ideal in the 10 slot, I can only hope there are some 10 options that grew up watching Carter or Steyn rather than the dross the Wallabies have been turning out the past 10 years.
@rotated said in Wallabies v Pumas, Perth:
I can only hope there are some 10 options that grew up watching Carter or Steyn rather than the dross the Wallabies have been turning out the past 10 years.
@rotated said in Wallabies v Pumas, Perth:
Steyn and Carter are mentioned simply because they only 10s in the past 10 years in the 3N/TRC who were remotely world class.
So, in effect, while you're busy frothing up, you're saying an Aussie kid should either aspire to be World Class by:
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Watching Dan Carter and just be that good. EDIT: no matter that the pack in front of him might be poo
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Watch Morne Steyn kick the fuck out of everything, relying on a dominant set piece, and barely ever pass it. You know: just occupy the jumper because the game plan is 10-man rugby and wins a World Cup. Seek to be just better than the other options enough to win Test rugby. Then wait until 5 minutes after every game for rotated to come on here and say something like "boring fucking Aussies might have won, but that flyhalf of theirs is no Dan Carter!"
Gotcha.
As for the "poor Aussies" thing - don't put words in my mouth. That was a reference to the fact that none of our options have looked decent in recent times because our forwards have been pretty limp.
Never stopped you firing off at Aussies or Australia in general though.
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Are you talking "international class" ( ie good enough to not disgrace himself ) or "World Class" ( DC, Barrett )
not quite sure.
You know I don't lower myself to petty Aussie jibes like others might but from the tone of your posts I'm not sure what you're alluding to about Quade.
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@rotated said in Wallabies v Pumas, Perth:
I can only hope there are some 10 options that grew up watching Carter or Steyn rather than the dross the Wallabies have been turning out the past 10 years.
@rotated said in Wallabies v Pumas, Perth:
Steyn and Carter are mentioned simply because they only 10s in the past 10 years in the 3N/TRC who were remotely world class.
So, in effect, while you're busy frothing up, you're saying an Aussie kid should either aspire to be World Class by:
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Watching Dan Carter and just be that good. EDIT: no matter that the pack in front of him might be poo
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Watch Morne Steyn kick the fuck out of everything, relying on a dominant set piece, and barely ever pass it. You know: just occupy the jumper because the game plan is 10-man rugby and wins a World Cup. Seek to be just better than the other options enough to win Test rugby. Then wait until 5 minutes after every game for rotated to come on here and say something like "boring fucking Aussies might have won, but that flyhalf of theirs is no Dan Carter!"
Gotcha.
As for the "poor Aussies" thing - don't put words in my mouth. That was a reference to the fact that none of our options have looked decent in recent times because our forwards have been pretty limp.
Never stopped you firing off at Aussies or Australia in general though.
@NTA said in Wallabies v Pumas, Perth:
@rotated said in Wallabies v Pumas, Perth:
I can only hope there are some 10 options that grew up watching Carter or Steyn rather than the dross the Wallabies have been turning out the past 10 years.
@rotated said in Wallabies v Pumas, Perth:
Steyn and Carter are mentioned simply because they only 10s in the past 10 years in the 3N/TRC who were remotely world class.
So, in effect, while you're busy frothing up, you're saying an Aussie kid should either aspire to be World Class by:
-
Watching Dan Carter and just be that good.
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Watch Morne Steyn kick the fuck out of everything, relying on a dominant set piece, and barely ever pass it. You know: just occupy the jumper because the game plan is 10-man rugby and wins a World Cup. Seek to be just better than the other options enough to win Test rugby. Then wait until 5 minutes after every game for rotated to come on here and say something like "boring fucking Aussies might have won, but that flyhalf of theirs is no Dan Carter!"
Gotcha.
Don't know who you are confusing me with but I have zero issue with 10 man rugby. I like winning rugby of all styles. Ultimately constructive rugby played well is going to win the day. Rugby is an excellent game because there are a variety of styles and the game will go through phases where different elements are more effective than others. I guess if you had to sum up the style of play I like it is 'smart rugby. So that probably explains why I have had little time for Cooper in the past.
But in answer to your question I would sooner have my kid trying to emulate Rahul Dravid than Martin Guptill (and yes the gap between Cooper and Steyn is that big). So yeah, I'd rather my kid be two-dimensional but effective, than staggeringly ignorant and a flat track bully.
As for the "poor Aussies" thing - don't put words in my mouth. That was a reference to the fact that none of our options have looked decent in recent times because our forwards have been pretty limp.
Never stopped you firing off at Aussies or Australia in general though.
No shots fired. I'm trying to help - move past both these options and stop going back to the well of inadequacy. The only one running down Aussie is you saying their forwards have been dominated at the breakdown and Genia/Phibbs given him slow ball.
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Wallabies named:
- Scott Sio (21 Tests)
- Stephen Moore (c) (108 Tests)
- Sekope Kepu (69 Tests)
- Rob Simmons (63 Tests)
- Adam Coleman (3 Tests)
- Dean Mumm (49 Tests)
- Michael Hooper (57 Tests)
- David Pocock (59 Tests)
- Will Genia (69 Tests)
- Quade Cooper (60 Tests)
- Reece Hodge (2 Tests)
- Bernard Foley (33 Tests)
- Samu Kerevi (4 Tests)
- Dane Haylett-Petty (6 Tests)
- Israel Folau (44 Tests)
RESERVES
(one to be omitted)
Tatafu Polota-Nau (67 Tests)
James Slipper (80 Tests)
Tom Robertson*
Rory Arnold (3 Tests)
Lopeti Timani*
Sean McMahon (10 Tests)
Nick Phipps (44 Tests)
Tevita Kuridrani (37 Tests)
Henry Speight (5 Tests)Douglas out. Simmons in.
@NTA said in Wallabies v Pumas, Perth:
Wallabies named:
- Scott Sio (21 Tests)
- Stephen Moore (c) (108 Tests)
- Sekope Kepu (69 Tests)
- Rob Simmons (63 Tests)
- Adam Coleman (3 Tests)
- Dean Mumm (49 Tests)
- Michael Hooper (57 Tests)
- David Pocock (59 Tests)
- Will Genia (69 Tests)
- Quade Cooper (60 Tests)
- Reece Hodge (2 Tests)
- Bernard Foley (33 Tests)
- Samu Kerevi (4 Tests)
- Dane Haylett-Petty (6 Tests)
- Israel Folau (44 Tests)
RESERVES
(one to be omitted)
Tatafu Polota-Nau (67 Tests)
James Slipper (80 Tests)
Tom Robertson*
Rory Arnold (3 Tests)
Lopeti Timani*
Sean McMahon (10 Tests)
Nick Phipps (44 Tests)
Tevita Kuridrani (37 Tests)
Henry Speight (5 Tests)Douglas out. Simmons in.
Henry Speight is the player who has been omitted from the Aussie bench.
Speight’s omission means there is no specialist winger in the Wallabies’ matchday 23.http://www.rugby.com.au/news/2016/09/16/02/41/wallabies-argentina-perth-bench
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@cgrant said in Wallabies v Pumas, Perth:
Only one specialist lock in the Pumas lineup. This could cost them dearly.
Against the Wobblies lineout?
@Unco said in Wallabies v Pumas, Perth:
@cgrant said in Wallabies v Pumas, Perth:
Only one specialist lock in the Pumas lineup. This could cost them dearly.
Against the Wobblies lineout?
I'll answer after the game.
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I think Nick's point is made by the fact Squire is used as back up for locks against Oz, whereas Romano is deemed necessary against Boks/Argies.
Quade is a deeply flawed player and not one I'd want to have to select as first choice, but he is skilled, and not just for the Reds. Quite a few of his tricks showcased for OZ in 2013:
Key take home is that Cooper can be an international 10, whereas Foley is a carthorse by comparison.
Will be watching with interest.
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Holy fuck did they just say this will be Rob Simmons' 64th test? If ever there was a damning indictment of the state of Australian rugby it's that. 63 shit games and he's still in the team.
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They flashed up a comparison of Pocock vs Isa.
Runs: 42 v 21 Isa
Run metres: 248 v 48 Isa
Tackle Busts: 12 v 1 Isa
Tackles: 23 v 20 Pocock
Pilfers: 6 v 2 Pocock
Passes thrown over the sideline: 2 vs 0 Pocock.
