All Blacks v Ireland II
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@mooshld said in Ireland II:
We have lost one test this year and we have discipline issues? I don't recall anyone saying that is what caused the loss in Chicago so how is it an issue?
When discipline starts to cost us games then its an issue.
What I meant was how does the apparent one sided refereeing in the Dublin explain the penalty count in Chicago. But if you are coughing up over 3 times the number of penalties as the opposition as well as yellow cards and citings when the opposition are not then that is a pretty good indicator that there are discipline issues. Waiting until it costs you a game is basically waiting for the horse to bolt. And closing your eyes to it is every bit as biased as some of the whinging my countrymen have been doing as well.
@molloyjh said in Ireland II:
@mooshld said in Ireland II:
We have lost one test this year and we have discipline issues? I don't recall anyone saying that is what caused the loss in Chicago so how is it an issue?
When discipline starts to cost us games then its an issue.
What I meant was how does the apparent one sided refereeing in the Dublin explain the penalty count in Chicago. But if you are coughing up over 3 times the number of penalties as the opposition as well as yellow cards and citings when the opposition are not then that is a pretty good indicator that there are discipline issues. Waiting until it costs you a game is basically waiting for the horse to bolt. And closing your eyes to it is every bit as biased as some of the whinging my countrymen have been doing as well.
Thats one way to look at it. Another way is that its usually the team in defense that gives up the majority of the penalties. When you play a style of game that we do where we score quick off of turnover ball you don't have a lot of possession so your more likely to end the game with a higher penalty count. Is that a problem. Yes if you're losing. I am not saying we are not guilty of dumb penalties we are, but I have seen no proof we are any worse then other teams. I would hazard a guess most of our penalties come from offside, maul defense and ruck infringements. You know stuff where it comes down to an interpretation being made in a split second.
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this is a very level headed view from Eddie O'Sullivan not sure if it has been posted.
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Yeah I think defense gives away more penalties than offense, so you can either conclude that NZ had discipline issues in Dublin (we most certainly did in Chicago) or that because we had so little balll and did so much defending we were always going to concede more penalties than Ireland, but didn't neccesarily have major discipline problems all things considered.
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Yeah I think defense gives away more penalties than offense, so you can either conclude that NZ had discipline issues in Dublin (we most certainly did in Chicago) or that because we had so little balll and did so much defending we were always going to concede more penalties than Ireland, but didn't neccesarily have major discipline problems all things considered.
@Billy-Tell said in Ireland II:
Yeah I think defense gives away more penalties than offense, so you can either conclude that NZ had discipline issues in Dublin (we most certainly did in Chicago) or that because we had so little balll and did so much defending we were always going to concede more penalties than Ireland, but didn't neccesarily have major discipline problems all things considered.
And that's the issue with looking at one statistic in isolation. Rugby is way to complicated to extrapolate shit from a single metric.
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Are the Irish really whinging that much? Easy to listen to a vocal few and ignore the masses.
@hydro11 said in Ireland II:
Are the Irish really whinging that much? Easy to listen to a vocal few and ignore the masses.
Quite. And you also have to ask when the whinging about the whinging gets worse than the whinging.
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@hydro11 said in Ireland II:
Are the Irish really whinging that much? Easy to listen to a vocal few and ignore the masses.
Quite. And you also have to ask when the whinging about the whinging gets worse than the whinging.
@Catogrande said in Ireland II:
@hydro11 said in Ireland II:
Are the Irish really whinging that much? Easy to listen to a vocal few and ignore the masses.
Quite. And you also have to ask when the whinging about the whinging gets worse than the whinging.
Quite.
The re-whinge levels are increasing with every piece of media being scrutinised to find something else to be narked about.
At this stage, one side is feeding the other until they all collapse in exhaustion and move on to the next test. Thank fuck there is a next test.
Karma for some this week would be Ireland accused of playing dirty and putting in king hits on the Wallabies - and still losing and then getting players cited/banned.
At which point, the world will explode.
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@Catogrande said in Ireland II:
@hydro11 said in Ireland II:
Are the Irish really whinging that much? Easy to listen to a vocal few and ignore the masses.
Quite. And you also have to ask when the whinging about the whinging gets worse than the whinging.
Quite.
The re-whinge levels are increasing with every piece of media being scrutinised to find something else to be narked about.
At this stage, one side is feeding the other until they all collapse in exhaustion and move on to the next test. Thank fuck there is a next test.
Karma for some this week would be Ireland accused of playing dirty and putting in king hits on the Wallabies - and still losing and then getting players cited/banned.
At which point, the world will explode.
@Pot-Hale said in Ireland II:
@Catogrande said in Ireland II:
@hydro11 said in Ireland II:
Are the Irish really whinging that much? Easy to listen to a vocal few and ignore the masses.
Quite. And you also have to ask when the whinging about the whinging gets worse than the whinging.
Quite.
The re-whinge levels are increasing with every piece of media being scrutinised to find something else to be narked about.
At this stage, one side is feeding the other until they all collapse in exhaustion and move on to the next test. Thank fuck there is a next test.
Karma for some this week would be Ireland accused of playing dirty and putting in king hits on the Wallabies - and still losing and then getting players cited/banned.
At which point, the world will explode.
I would explode with laughter, that's for sure
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@Catogrande said in Ireland II:
@hydro11 said in Ireland II:
Are the Irish really whinging that much? Easy to listen to a vocal few and ignore the masses.
Quite. And you also have to ask when the whinging about the whinging gets worse than the whinging.
Quite.
The re-whinge levels are increasing with every piece of media being scrutinised to find something else to be narked about.
At this stage, one side is feeding the other until they all collapse in exhaustion and move on to the next test. Thank fuck there is a next test.
Karma for some this week would be Ireland accused of playing dirty and putting in king hits on the Wallabies - and still losing and then getting players cited/banned.
At which point, the world will explode.
@Pot-Hale said in Ireland II:
@Catogrande said in Ireland II:
@hydro11 said in Ireland II:
Are the Irish really whinging that much? Easy to listen to a vocal few and ignore the masses.
Quite. And you also have to ask when the whinging about the whinging gets worse than the whinging.
Quite.
The re-whinge levels are increasing with every piece of media being scrutinised to find something else to be narked about.
At this stage, one side is feeding the other until they all collapse in exhaustion and move on to the next test. Thank fuck there is a next test.
Karma for some this week would be Ireland accused of playing dirty and putting in king hits on the Wallabies - and still losing and then getting players cited/banned.
At which point, the world will explode.
If that was to happen it would make me very very happy.
Its unlikely though so my second wish would be for the irish fans who've spent the week in a lather over the game , their captain and their media to develop a degree of self awareness so next time we play we don't have a repeat of this embarrassing behaviour.
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As usual these blokes are pretty close to the money on their review of the game ,
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It's getting (really) boring so I stop. But before that
Here is Darcy writing in the Times today: http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-when-you-go-over-the-edge-there-should-be-consequences-1.2878356
And here is Darcy spear tackling Rua Tipoki in 2005:
At least Quinlan in his article went "mea culpa, I can hardly talk".
But I agree with catogrande, the whinging about the whinging is becoming worse than the whinging itself, so that's it. Finished.
On to next weekend's games.
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It's getting (really) boring so I stop. But before that
Here is Darcy writing in the Times today: http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-when-you-go-over-the-edge-there-should-be-consequences-1.2878356
And here is Darcy spear tackling Rua Tipoki in 2005:
At least Quinlan in his article went "mea culpa, I can hardly talk".
But I agree with catogrande, the whinging about the whinging is becoming worse than the whinging itself, so that's it. Finished.
On to next weekend's games.
@Billy-Tell that's hilarious.
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It's getting (really) boring so I stop. But before that
Here is Darcy writing in the Times today: http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-when-you-go-over-the-edge-there-should-be-consequences-1.2878356
And here is Darcy spear tackling Rua Tipoki in 2005:
At least Quinlan in his article went "mea culpa, I can hardly talk".
But I agree with catogrande, the whinging about the whinging is becoming worse than the whinging itself, so that's it. Finished.
On to next weekend's games.
@Billy-Tell said in Ireland II:
It's getting (really) boring so I stop. But before that
Here is Darcy writing in the Times today: http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-when-you-go-over-the-edge-there-should-be-consequences-1.2878356
And here is Darcy spear tackling Rua Tipoki in 2005:
At least Quinlan in his article went "mea culpa, I can hardly talk".
But I agree with catogrande, the whinging about the whinging is becoming worse than the whinging itself, so that's it. Finished.
On to next weekend's games.
Oh D"Arse
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It's getting (really) boring so I stop. But before that
Here is Darcy writing in the Times today: http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-when-you-go-over-the-edge-there-should-be-consequences-1.2878356
And here is Darcy spear tackling Rua Tipoki in 2005:
At least Quinlan in his article went "mea culpa, I can hardly talk".
But I agree with catogrande, the whinging about the whinging is becoming worse than the whinging itself, so that's it. Finished.
On to next weekend's games.
@Billy-Tell said in Ireland II:
It's getting (really) boring so I stop. But before that
Here is Darcy writing in the Times today: http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-when-you-go-over-the-edge-there-should-be-consequences-1.2878356
And here is Darcy spear tackling Rua Tipoki in 2005:
At least Quinlan in his article went "mea culpa, I can hardly talk".
But I agree with catogrande, the whinging about the whinging is becoming worse than the whinging itself, so that's it. Finished.
On to next weekend's games.
By the cringe, that's bloody bad from D'Arcy.
On the high tackles in the game I would say this in summary:-
Cane: High, exacerbated by Henshaw twisting into contact. Worthy of a penalty only. However if you go high do not be surprised to be cited. Luckily for Cane the judiciary got this one right.
Fekitoa. Awful. High, clumsy, not really even any attempt at a tackle. Lucky not to see red and again the judiciary got this one right.
Sexton. First off, it was a try and therefore could not ever be a penalty try. It was high, it was a neck roll (albeit a harmless one). Very lucky not to get penalised and even yellowed. Lucky again not to be cited. WTF the citing commissioner was on not to refer that one I don't know.
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@antipodean said in Ireland II:
@molloyjh said in Ireland II:
Ah now there are more level headed reactions in fairness:
http://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-missed-chances-all-blacks-3092438-Nov2016/
http://www.the42.ie/ireland-all-blacks-aviva-match-report-2016-3090747-Nov2016/
I'd also point out that there cannot be any question that NZ have a discipline issue at the moment. 12-4 was the penalty count in Chicago. 14-4 in Dublin. 3 yellow cards across both Tests to 0. 2 citings to 0. And the citing commissioner apparently referred 12 incidents in the game on Saturday back to the teams. 11 of those to NZ. While I don't like the whinging and the moaning it's pretty clear there is a discipline issue there that can't be ignored.
The Test on the weekend was a one-sided joke from the refereeing. There should have been at least one yellow card for Ireland and Aaron Smith should never have been penalised. Ireland had carte blanche at the ruck and how you get a scrum for being the last man in defence knocking a pass down is beyond baffling.
So how does that explain Chicago? Was that a one sided joke as well? Given that both games had pretty consistent stats with regards discipline are you happy to just write that off? And how does the above comment not fit with the whinging description that Irish fans and media have been labelled with?
A lot of Irish fans and media have gone totally overboard (and quite frankly bat shit crazy at times) with what happened at the weekend, but I've also seen a corresponding extreme from a lot of NZ fans and media refusing to acknowledge that there are discipline issues. If the roles were reversed I'd be very focused on the penalty count issue for Ireland and desperately want to see an improvement. I wouldn't be looking to sweep it all under the rug and blame the opponents for daring to speak of it. The truth often tends to be in the middle somewhere. The 2 extremes that we're seeing (NZ are cheating bastards who always get away with it as opposed to the NZ are being victimised buy the ref and opposition) are equally unfair reactions to what went on in what was, all officiating issues aside, a superb contest.
@molloyjh said in Ireland II:
@antipodean said in Ireland II:
@molloyjh said in Ireland II:
Ah now there are more level headed reactions in fairness:
http://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-missed-chances-all-blacks-3092438-Nov2016/
http://www.the42.ie/ireland-all-blacks-aviva-match-report-2016-3090747-Nov2016/
I'd also point out that there cannot be any question that NZ have a discipline issue at the moment. 12-4 was the penalty count in Chicago. 14-4 in Dublin. 3 yellow cards across both Tests to 0. 2 citings to 0. And the citing commissioner apparently referred 12 incidents in the game on Saturday back to the teams. 11 of those to NZ. While I don't like the whinging and the moaning it's pretty clear there is a discipline issue there that can't be ignored.
The Test on the weekend was a one-sided joke from the refereeing. There should have been at least one yellow card for Ireland and Aaron Smith should never have been penalised. Ireland had carte blanche at the ruck and how you get a scrum for being the last man in defence knocking a pass down is beyond baffling.
So how does that explain Chicago? Was that a one sided joke as well? Given that both games had pretty consistent stats with regards discipline are you happy to just write that off? And how does the above comment not fit with the whinging description that Irish fans and media have been labelled with?
A lot of Irish fans and media have gone totally overboard (and quite frankly bat shit crazy at times) with what happened at the weekend, but I've also seen a corresponding extreme from a lot of NZ fans and media refusing to acknowledge that there are discipline issues. If the roles were reversed I'd be very focused on the penalty count issue for Ireland and desperately want to see an improvement. I wouldn't be looking to sweep it all under the rug and blame the opponents for daring to speak of it. The truth often tends to be in the middle somewhere. The 2 extremes that we're seeing (NZ are cheating bastards who always get away with it as opposed to the NZ are being victimised buy the ref and opposition) are equally unfair reactions to what went on in what was, all officiating issues aside, a superb contest.
Your first paragraph:
It doesn't. Different game. Different circumstances. There were no complaints after Chicago because there couldn't be. Ref was good made no or few obvious errors.Dublin ... well ...
Re the relative amount of whinging ... I feel it is mitigated somwhat by considering who won.
Add in which side of the divide seems to be on a witch hunt ...
As you say: shades of grey. But I have may opinion about which end oc the spectrum the grey is closer to.
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From D'Arcy's article:
Cane couldn’t have pulled out of the Henshaw tackle, and Robbie did spin into him, but the duty of care is on the tackler.
Two paragraphs later:
Well, Johnny Sexton should have been cited for the high tackle on Barrett as he crossed for his try. That doesn’t wash. Barrett was moving downwards to ground the ball.
WTF?
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From D'Arcy's article:
Cane couldn’t have pulled out of the Henshaw tackle, and Robbie did spin into him, but the duty of care is on the tackler.
Two paragraphs later:
Well, Johnny Sexton should have been cited for the high tackle on Barrett as he crossed for his try. That doesn’t wash. Barrett was moving downwards to ground the ball.
WTF?
@Milk said in Ireland II:
From D'Arcy's article:
Cane couldn’t have pulled out of the Henshaw tackle, and Robbie did spin into him, but the duty of care is on the tackler.
Two paragraphs later:
Well, Johnny Sexton should have been cited for the high tackle on Barrett as he crossed for his try. That doesn’t wash. Barrett was moving downwards to ground the ball.
WTF?
Makes perfect sense to me. Thought Darcy's article was very good actually. Good analysis of some aspects of Ireland's play.
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@Milk said in Ireland II:
From D'Arcy's article:
Cane couldn’t have pulled out of the Henshaw tackle, and Robbie did spin into him, but the duty of care is on the tackler.
Two paragraphs later:
Well, Johnny Sexton should have been cited for the high tackle on Barrett as he crossed for his try. That doesn’t wash. Barrett was moving downwards to ground the ball.
WTF?
Makes perfect sense to me. Thought Darcy's article was very good actually. Good analysis of some aspects of Ireland's play.
@Pot-Hale said in Ireland II:
@Milk said in Ireland II:
From D'Arcy's article:
Cane couldn’t have pulled out of the Henshaw tackle, and Robbie did spin into him, but the duty of care is on the tackler.
Two paragraphs later:
Well, Johnny Sexton should have been cited for the high tackle on Barrett as he crossed for his try. That doesn’t wash. Barrett was moving downwards to ground the ball.
WTF?
Makes perfect sense to me. Thought Darcy's article was very good actually. Good analysis of some aspects of Ireland's play.
Darcy is a actually a good columnist and I like his articles. Just the irony that is all.
Times have changed: 2005 Darcy gets a penalty and a warning from Walsh. 2016 that would be red card citing and 2 to 6 weeks on the sideline.
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@Pot-Hale said in Ireland II:
@Milk said in Ireland II:
From D'Arcy's article:
Cane couldn’t have pulled out of the Henshaw tackle, and Robbie did spin into him, but the duty of care is on the tackler.
Two paragraphs later:
Well, Johnny Sexton should have been cited for the high tackle on Barrett as he crossed for his try. That doesn’t wash. Barrett was moving downwards to ground the ball.
WTF?
Makes perfect sense to me. Thought Darcy's article was very good actually. Good analysis of some aspects of Ireland's play.
Darcy is a actually a good columnist and I like his articles. Just the irony that is all.
Times have changed: 2005 Darcy gets a penalty and a warning from Walsh. 2016 that would be red card citing and 2 to 6 weeks on the sideline.
@Billy-Tell said in Ireland II:
@Pot-Hale said in Ireland II:
@Milk said in Ireland II:
From D'Arcy's article:
Cane couldn’t have pulled out of the Henshaw tackle, and Robbie did spin into him, but the duty of care is on the tackler.
Two paragraphs later:
Well, Johnny Sexton should have been cited for the high tackle on Barrett as he crossed for his try. That doesn’t wash. Barrett was moving downwards to ground the ball.
WTF?
Makes perfect sense to me. Thought Darcy's article was very good actually. Good analysis of some aspects of Ireland's play.
Darcy is a actually a good columnist and I like his articles. Just the irony that is all.
Times have changed: 2005 Darcy gets a penalty and a warning from Walsh. 2016 that would be red card citing and 2 to 6 weeks on the sideline.
Indeed. 2005, O'Driscoll is ahem "cleared out of a ruck" and nothing happens. 2016, that would be "cleared out of a ruck" and nothing happens.
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@Bones really? i was genuinely nervous for most of it, and thought their forwards were as good as ours. i've seen plenty of games 21-9 or so which haven't had me nervous at all. maybe i was still just spooked from the previous one.
@reprobate said in Ireland II:
@Bones really? i was genuinely nervous for most of it, and thought their forwards were as good as ours. i've seen plenty of games 21-9 or so which haven't had me nervous at all. maybe i was still just spooked from the previous one.
Go and watch the game again. We boss the game from about 58 minutes - straight after Ireland kick a penalty get it to 14-9. In my view, that's great leadership from Read (obviously said the right things under the post before the kick) and also good substitutions (TJP on for AS in particular is a key moment).
It's the combined nervousness of watching live and wondering whether another team is about to eclipse us. To be fair to us, in Chicago we somehow kept in the game until 75+ minutes despite getting spanked all over the park. Here, the Irish were spent (despite having all the ball) after 60.
But you are right - their forwards had the better of us in both games this series.
I think this is a major new rivalry.
