Six Nations 2017
-
It raises an interesting issue about offside though. How often has a back been called for coming up early when no ruck was technically formed so actually no offside line.
I'll be the first to admit that my default assumption after a tackle is that a ruck was formed if it's on the ground. But as soon as I saw it here. I was like oh yeah no arriving defending player no ruck, no offside. What I didn't understand though was why couldn't that box kick be charged down? -
*Italy played a novel tactic of not committing any men to the breakdown beyond the initial tackler, meaning no ruck was formed and any offside became irrelevant.
Italian defenders could therefore stand between England's half-backs, creating confusion for the men in white.
"How can you have players standing in your attack line? Even when there were rucks, there were people standing in our attack line.
"You look to pass the ball and there's a blue jumper there. You look in front and there's a blue jumper there. There's blue jumpers everywhere.
"He [Poite] had a terrible day. He wasn't refereeing rugby."
Asked if rugby's laws need to change following the game, Jones said: "I don't think anyone wants to see a game like that. No-one likes to see rugby not played in its proper form so World Rugby will have to have a very close look at it.
"I don't think there was anything good in that today. It didn't improve the game."*
Italy match not proper rugby - Jones
*England coach Eddie Jones said an unexpected Italy tactic "wasn't rugby" as they frustrated the Six Nations champions before finally losing 36-15.
Italy led 10-5 at half-time as they chose not to compete at the breakdown, allowing them to step into the England line without going offside.
But the hosts found a way through with five tries in the second period.
"Well done Italy, very smart. We knew they'd come with something," Jones told BBC Radio 5 live.
"But it wasn't rugby. We haven't played a game of rugby yet.
"I'm not critical of Italy, they did what they needed to do to stay in the game."
Italy coach Conor O'Shea defended the tactic, saying: "Everything we did was completely legal; I was incredibly proud of what the players put out there."
At one stage, England captain Dylan Hartley and team-mate James Haskell asked referee Romain Poite to clarify the law, but the Frenchman replied: "I am a referee, not a coach."
Jones added: "Did we react quick enough? It's hard when you don't play rugby, it's like playing a different game out there.
"If your half-back can't pass the ball, the game becomes difficult. It's not the way you want to play the game. We wanted to move the ball and play some good rugby.
"We scored six tries and at the end of three rounds, if we were undefeated and with a bonus points, we'd be doing handstands. So we're doing handstands."
Italy played a novel tactic of not committing any men to the breakdown beyond the initial tackler, meaning no ruck was formed and any offside became irrelevant.
Italian defenders could therefore stand between England's half-backs, creating confusion for the men in white.
"How can you have players standing in your attack line? Even when there were rucks, there were people standing in our attack line.
"You look to pass the ball and there's a blue jumper there. You look in front and there's a blue jumper there. There's blue jumpers everywhere.
"He [Poite] had a terrible day. He wasn't refereeing rugby."
Asked if rugby's laws need to change following the game, Jones said: "I don't think anyone wants to see a game like that. No-one likes to see rugby not played in its proper form so World Rugby will have to have a very close look at it.
"I don't think there was anything good in that today. It didn't improve the game."*
Italy 'ruined the match' - Dawson
*The innovative tactics caused confusion among the spectators as well as those on the field, and former England scrum-half Matt Dawson laid the blame for a disjointed contest firmly with Italy.
The 2003 World Cup winner said on Twitter: "Well done Italy on ruining this international. Now World Rugby have to change the laws because of your inability to compete at this level."
O'Shea was not about to back down when Dawson's comment was put to him, saying: "I'd like him to sit down with World Rugby to look at some of the other games we've played this year, and if he's that good in the rules, actually make a comment after we were impacted as we were in the first game of this championship - but that's not for me to talk about now.
"We came here to have a go. If they want us to lose by 100 points, why should we? Why should we be normal. We should be ourselves. Rather than having a go, have a bit of humility and respect for guys who have very little in comparison to their counter-parts.
"I was expecting this, if I'm honest."*
'I'm sure Trevor Chappell would've been happy today'
*Jones went on to compare the Italian tactic to a famous one-day international cricket match between Australia and New Zealand in 1981.
With one ball remaining, New Zealand needed a six to tie the match.
To ensure this couldn't happen, Australia's captain Greg Chappell ordered his brother Trevor to bowl the last ball underarm, a legal action at the time.
"Well, obviously they've been watching Trevor Chappell with the underarm bowl along the ground to make sure they couldn't hit a six," said Australian Jones.
"I'm sure Trevor Chappell would've been happy today."*
-
I just watched some highlights on stuff. What I don't understand is why weren't italy just attacking the halfback seeing there was no ruck instead they just jumped around behind the tackle area getting in the way. Also wouldn't most captains just say alright halfback fuck off its time to pick and go 80m down field and see if they still don't want to contest.
-
I just watched some highlights on stuff. What I don't understand is why weren't italy just attacking the halfback seeing there was no ruck instead they just jumped around behind the tackle area getting in the way. Also wouldn't most captains just say alright halfback fuck off its time to pick and go 80m down field and see if they still don't want to contest.
@Magpie_in_aus said in Six Nations 2017:
I just watched some highlights on stuff. What I don't understand is why weren't italy just attacking the halfback seeing there was no ruck instead they just jumped around behind the tackle area getting in the way. Also wouldn't most captains just say alright halfback fuck off its time to pick and go 80m down field and see if they still don't want to contest.
Wasn't that what teams did to the Chiefs sometimes when they used the tactic?
-
Holy shit, a NZ news site posted some actual rugby analysis:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/89831868/how-italys-offside-tackle-tactics-caught-england-off-guard-and-how-to-counter-itSure, it took a game on the other side of the planet to get them to do it but baby steps.
-
For those wondering why they didn't sack the scrum half or can't charge the kick... You still can't join the ruck from the side or encroach within a metre.
@Bones said in Six Nations 2017:
For those wondering why they didn't sack the scrum half or can't charge the kick... You still can't join the ruck from the side or encroach within a metre.
Yep, and the WR refs have decided that it is against the spirit of the game to smash the half back after he has removed the ball
-
@Bones said in Six Nations 2017:
For those wondering why they didn't sack the scrum half or can't charge the kick... You still can't join the ruck from the side or encroach within a metre.
Yep, and the WR refs have decided that it is against the spirit of the game to smash the half back after he has removed the ball
-
@Crucial Which is strange because they've been exposed to halfbacks enough to know better.
@antipodean said in Six Nations 2017:
@Crucial Which is strange because they've been exposed to halfbacks enough to know better.
But they have an affinity. The are both hated by everyone else on the field.
-
I rewatched the crusaders game after this to check how often offside is awarded when there is no ruck. Glenn Jackson was constantly marshalling an offside line for the defense even though it was tackle only.
I think it's too difficult for a ref to make the ruck no ruck call and check offside at the same time so I expect a change will be coming.
-
I rewatched the crusaders game after this to check how often offside is awarded when there is no ruck. Glenn Jackson was constantly marshalling an offside line for the defense even though it was tackle only.
I think it's too difficult for a ref to make the ruck no ruck call and check offside at the same time so I expect a change will be coming.
@mooshld That's because Jackson is incompetent. Don't call ruck = players can be everywhere. Call ruck and they have to be on-side. Not too difficult surely?
-
@mooshld That's because Jackson is incompetent. Don't call ruck = players can be everywhere. Call ruck and they have to be on-side. Not too difficult surely?
@antipodean he wasn't calling anything yet saying take a step or pointing out the midfield being in front of the tackle. I suspect this happens a lot and for most refs the default breakdown is a ruck and they have therefore enforced an offside line erroneously.
-
The likes of Matt Dawson calling for a law change miss the point completely. The real story here is how sloooow England were to adapt. When they did adapt (intermittently, it has to be noted - wtf? Did they just keep forgetting what the appropriate countermeasures were?) it was oneway traffic. At the risk of sounding like Abe Simpson, this reminds me of a time.... way back in the early 90s I played in the Northampton Business Sevens for my then employer. We were a team of predominantly fatties from various Beds and Northants junior clubs, and definitely not going to terrify anyone by spreading the ball wide. In one of our games we found ourselves playing against a bunch of young tyros from Saints, contemporaries and mates of Dawson. Having been fairly comprehensively outplayed in the first half, at halftime we decided to play to our strengths and scored twice thereafter from a long series of pick and drives up the centre. I'm pretty sure someone in the crowd suggested that our tactics were against the spirit of sevens, but I responded with my characteristic wit ("Fuck off", I quipped merrily).
-
I rewatched the crusaders game after this to check how often offside is awarded when there is no ruck. Glenn Jackson was constantly marshalling an offside line for the defense even though it was tackle only.
I think it's too difficult for a ref to make the ruck no ruck call and check offside at the same time so I expect a change will be coming.
@mooshld said in Six Nations 2017:
I rewatched the crusaders game after this to check how often offside is awarded when there is no ruck. Glenn Jackson was constantly marshalling an offside line for the defense even though it was tackle only.
I think it's too difficult for a ref to make the ruck no ruck call and check offside at the same time so I expect a change will be coming.
It's not too difficult. That's exactly what Poite was doing and I don't think I saw him get the call wrong at all.
What you do need to do though is prepare the ref for the tactic (which Italy did) or he will assume every tackle draws an offside line (like Jackson) so he can get on with the rest of his job.
Preparing the ref also means that the ARs in in on it as well and won't be screming offside into their mikes when it isn't (not that they ever police the offside line anyway) -
What amused me also was when one of my real offside bugbears, 'the pillar', was called against England in that no try ruling as obstruction.
Fine for Eddie to complain that what Italy did 'wasn't rugby', but where does he draw the line? He is happy to coach for players to stand unbound in front of the hindmost foot at a breakdown (like every other coach) and that, unlike Italy's ploy, is actually illegal but ignored by most refs.
Italy only got away with the tactic for so long because the England on field leadership was poor and unable to react. Also raises a question about EJ as well as it was pretty obvious that he didn't pass the message on what to do until half time when he could have done so earlier through a water carrier.
Eddie was mainly pissed off because he took this game as a tailormade training run for him to try combinations and moves. Italy caught him out, disrupted what he was trying to do in his grand plan and made his onfield leaders look stupid all in one go. -
The online huffing and puffing from various specimens of "Twickenham man" that they had been denied the free-flowing rugby spectacle that they had shown up to watch is a bit rich also. Damn, I wish that I could remember how to link in an "Are you not entertained?" meme. Anyone of that ilk who says that they went to Twickenham yesterday expecting anything other than a record score slaughter is fibbing. Fair play to Italy for not meekly following that script. It wasn't pretty, but I for one actually found it entertaining. Plus it was a toe up the backside in advance of what I expect to be a very interesting Calcutta Cup match in a fortnight's time.
