Eden Park
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@hooroo That's one of his options - but, I'm responding to the first option he's suggesting for if we have a "National" stadium in Auckland.
@chris-b said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
@hooroo That's one of his options - but, I'm responding to the first option he's suggesting for if we have a "National" stadium in Auckland.
A national stadium doesn't mean playing every test in Auckland. I said it would be the big games (Tier 1?) which is Au, SA and the Lions. Maybe the occasional test VS England or France depending on who's likely to draw a crowd. So we're talking two to three tests a year most years. Then the rest of the centres around the country would bid for the balance.
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Yeah, I totally agree. Reality his that Auckland simply isnt' big enough to have multiple stadiums for multiple sports.
Mt Smart should have been ditched years ago, with the warriors also playing (and funding) Eden Park.
Beautiful stadium that Albany is, what does it add to the equation?
for really big cricket matches requiring the capacity ... play them in wellington.
Why can't Auckland be the "home of NZ rugby" and Wellington the "home of NZ cricket? Wellington arguably already is with the Basin Reserve anyway. The travelling distances aren't THAT inhibitive. Both cities have plentiful hotel accomodation, and to put on additional flights (or even some more trains) for travel between isn't going to present any more logistical challenges than it already does.
@majorrage said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
Why can't Auckland be the "home of NZ rugby" and Wellington the "home of NZ cricket?
I agree - but Eden Park is half owned by a Trust to promote cricket - and they compromise the shit out of designs and facilities toa ccommodate both.
I said before 2011 that we had just missed the boat in terms of the opportunity to develop a dual purpose venue. How good would Eden Park be if there was a dedicated rectangular stadium on one side, and an expanded No 2 ground on the other. Shared facilities, etc. Still has issues with consent conditions on operation and access, but you'd have a viable stadium for about the same amount of $$$ you have spent already.
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The blues are dragging down Eden Park with them
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12187857
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This is actually a very fair article by TFF (the Fern's favourite)
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12188217
@MajorRage said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
This is actually a very fair article by TFF (the Fern's favourite)
He's a serial whiner but the article does, at least, highlight the clusterfuck of decision making throughout greater Auckland when in comes to stadia.
I have to concede that most cities in NZ only end up with good stadiums out of luck and timing, but Auckland seems to go out of it's way to avoid opportunity then even further to ensure they make the already bad situation worse.
The NIMBYs around EP should be told in simple terms to suck it up. Having a large volume venue near your house is common in many cities and doesn't mean the end of the world. EP and the neighbours coped OK back in the days before crowd management, traffic and transport planners etc and there's no reason they can't co-exist now.
If Auckland wants a venue to watch 2 rugby tests and the occasional ODI or T20 a year then they have to be flexible enough to let it pay it's way. Reduce compliance costs and allow the odd concert. -
@MajorRage said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
This is actually a very fair article by TFF (the Fern's favourite)
He's a serial whiner but the article does, at least, highlight the clusterfuck of decision making throughout greater Auckland when in comes to stadia.
I have to concede that most cities in NZ only end up with good stadiums out of luck and timing, but Auckland seems to go out of it's way to avoid opportunity then even further to ensure they make the already bad situation worse.
The NIMBYs around EP should be told in simple terms to suck it up. Having a large volume venue near your house is common in many cities and doesn't mean the end of the world. EP and the neighbours coped OK back in the days before crowd management, traffic and transport planners etc and there's no reason they can't co-exist now.
If Auckland wants a venue to watch 2 rugby tests and the occasional ODI or T20 a year then they have to be flexible enough to let it pay it's way. Reduce compliance costs and allow the odd concert.@Crucial said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
The NIMBYs around EP should be told in simple terms to suck it up. Having a large volume venue near your house is common in many cities and doesn't mean the end of the world. EP and the neighbours coped OK back in the days before crowd management, traffic and transport planners etc and there's no reason they can't co-exist now.
What's the legal situation on this? Can the council tell them to do so?
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@Crucial said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
The NIMBYs around EP should be told in simple terms to suck it up. Having a large volume venue near your house is common in many cities and doesn't mean the end of the world. EP and the neighbours coped OK back in the days before crowd management, traffic and transport planners etc and there's no reason they can't co-exist now.
What's the legal situation on this? Can the council tell them to do so?
@Tim said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
What's the legal situation on this? Can the council tell them to do so?
It's worth noting the competing interests.
'Auckland Stadiums' runs Albany, Mt Smart and Western Springs etc, they are part of 'Regional Facilities Auckland' who are part of the council. When Eden Park is restricted the other Stadiums pick up the slack.
Are the council and the Eden Park nimbys on opposite sides?
To me it seems like the council wants Eden Park to die. They will call it a national issue and request all NZ taxpayers pay for a new Auckland stadium. Of course the new stadium would be directly controlled by 'Auckland Stadiums' like the others
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@Crucial said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
The NIMBYs around EP should be told in simple terms to suck it up. Having a large volume venue near your house is common in many cities and doesn't mean the end of the world. EP and the neighbours coped OK back in the days before crowd management, traffic and transport planners etc and there's no reason they can't co-exist now.
What's the legal situation on this? Can the council tell them to do so?
@Tim said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
@Crucial said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
The NIMBYs around EP should be told in simple terms to suck it up. Having a large volume venue near your house is common in many cities and doesn't mean the end of the world. EP and the neighbours coped OK back in the days before crowd management, traffic and transport planners etc and there's no reason they can't co-exist now.
What's the legal situation on this? Can the council tell them to do so?
Moot point really as I can't see how EP can even hope to cover costs even with a few extra events.
Only two things attract sizable crowds to sports in NZ. An AB test against a Tier 1 opposition and a T20 on the right day (with the right weather). Any stadia has to be multi purpose and for that to work needs to be in a location that is both accessible and separate enough from residential sops.Geography plays a part as well. For those that recall the days of big concerts at Western Springs it was like a natural loudhailer to surrounding houses. In those days though no one cared as the suburbs there weren't populated by softcocks upset that the sound of guitars were putting little Harry off his ipad.
All of this was pointed out in the lead up to 2011 but instead of making the tough decision to create a venue for the future they sunk wasted $ into a white elephant and made it fatter.
Looking at a map of Auckland I can see 3 'options' as a place to cut the EP losses and invest in modern multipurpose infrastructure.
- Waterfront. The obvious one for transport links and potential to create a 'destination' piece of architecture. An example of the mix of everyday usage is the O2 in London. People go there as a shopping and/or tourist destination and other stuff is attracted to the area (funnily enough even housing). Downside is cost challenges.
- Chamberlain Park. Although I appreciate the idea of providing a public golf course for use by non club members the fact is that this is a massive waste of land usage when judged against the benefit to ratepayers. Modern 'interactive' parkland (eg commercial operators leasing for family and tourist attractions) combined with a stadium would provide much better value. Sell bits of the fringe to developers for apartment housing as well.
- Ellerslie. Similar to CP but a waste of private land instead. A no goer.
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@MajorRage said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
This is actually a very fair article by TFF (the Fern's favourite)
He's a serial whiner but the article does, at least, highlight the clusterfuck of decision making throughout greater Auckland when in comes to stadia.
I have to concede that most cities in NZ only end up with good stadiums out of luck and timing, but Auckland seems to go out of it's way to avoid opportunity then even further to ensure they make the already bad situation worse.
The NIMBYs around EP should be told in simple terms to suck it up. Having a large volume venue near your house is common in many cities and doesn't mean the end of the world. EP and the neighbours coped OK back in the days before crowd management, traffic and transport planners etc and there's no reason they can't co-exist now.
If Auckland wants a venue to watch 2 rugby tests and the occasional ODI or T20 a year then they have to be flexible enough to let it pay it's way. Reduce compliance costs and allow the odd concert.@Crucial said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
@MajorRage said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
This is actually a very fair article by TFF (the Fern's favourite)
He's a serial whiner but the article does, at least, highlight the clusterfuck of decision making throughout greater Auckland when in comes to
stadia. any infrastructure whatsoever.Fixed it for you.
On a side note, way back in the day I was forced to attend community board meetings as part of a journalism paper. Cos I lived in Kingsland at the time, I went to the local one. My god. Never had I heard such a bunch of piston wristed gibbons. They way they whined, it was if Eden Park had just appeared that year.
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In my view, the real fuck up started when rugby stadiums weren't considered for the Warriors to make their home back in 1995. NZ as a country, is big enough to deserve to have a decent track and field stadium, and Mt Smart should have been left as it was. Unfortunately, the only option against it was Carlaw park, which by that stage literally was a toilet, if not worse.
Although given the phenomenal support from South Auckland communities to the warriors, I do wonder if having them inner city would limit the success of their fanbase.
A stadium which could be viewed as the offical home of the All Blacks, Blues, Warriors, and the spiritual home of Mate Ma'a Tonga with deals with Manu Samoa, Tonga rugby for gate takings etc, would have been a superb use of rectangular waterfront stadium. With it being close to vector as well, then the transport links could be properly updated for both.
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@Tim said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
@Crucial said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
The NIMBYs around EP should be told in simple terms to suck it up. Having a large volume venue near your house is common in many cities and doesn't mean the end of the world. EP and the neighbours coped OK back in the days before crowd management, traffic and transport planners etc and there's no reason they can't co-exist now.
What's the legal situation on this? Can the council tell them to do so?
Moot point really as I can't see how EP can even hope to cover costs even with a few extra events.
Only two things attract sizable crowds to sports in NZ. An AB test against a Tier 1 opposition and a T20 on the right day (with the right weather). Any stadia has to be multi purpose and for that to work needs to be in a location that is both accessible and separate enough from residential sops.Geography plays a part as well. For those that recall the days of big concerts at Western Springs it was like a natural loudhailer to surrounding houses. In those days though no one cared as the suburbs there weren't populated by softcocks upset that the sound of guitars were putting little Harry off his ipad.
All of this was pointed out in the lead up to 2011 but instead of making the tough decision to create a venue for the future they sunk wasted $ into a white elephant and made it fatter.
Looking at a map of Auckland I can see 3 'options' as a place to cut the EP losses and invest in modern multipurpose infrastructure.
- Waterfront. The obvious one for transport links and potential to create a 'destination' piece of architecture. An example of the mix of everyday usage is the O2 in London. People go there as a shopping and/or tourist destination and other stuff is attracted to the area (funnily enough even housing). Downside is cost challenges.
- Chamberlain Park. Although I appreciate the idea of providing a public golf course for use by non club members the fact is that this is a massive waste of land usage when judged against the benefit to ratepayers. Modern 'interactive' parkland (eg commercial operators leasing for family and tourist attractions) combined with a stadium would provide much better value. Sell bits of the fringe to developers for apartment housing as well.
- Ellerslie. Similar to CP but a waste of private land instead. A no goer.
@Crucial hasnt Chamberlain Park already had parts trimmed off for roading?
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I'm getting sick of all this stadium garbage. Auckland needs a flash new stadium in an appropriate spot and it may as well be a 'national stadium' and get all the big games. This also makes the debate I envision for Christchurch around the size and nature of our stadium to be a lot simpler as there won't be an argument for winning tier 1 tests and needing 35,000+ seats, which currently isn't in the plan.
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I'm getting sick of all this stadium garbage. Auckland needs a flash new stadium in an appropriate spot and it may as well be a 'national stadium' and get all the big games. This also makes the debate I envision for Christchurch around the size and nature of our stadium to be a lot simpler as there won't be an argument for winning tier 1 tests and needing 35,000+ seats, which currently isn't in the plan.
@shark said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
I'm getting sick of all this stadium garbage. Auckland needs a flash new stadium in an appropriate spot and it may as well be a 'national stadium' and get all the big games. This also makes the debate I envision for Christchurch around the size and nature of our stadium to be a lot simpler as there won't be an argument for winning tier 1 tests and needing 35,000+ seats, which currently isn't in the plan.
There are too many conflicting interest groups up here. That is why we have the hotchpotch setup that exists today. The city could do with one quality cricket venue and one multi-use stadium for the rugby codes, football, and concerts. My choice would have been Western Springs for cricket (nice natural bowl in an oval shape already) and to build a steep sided narrow footprint stadium (like the one in Hong Kong) at the old Carlaw Park site which would have required a little land from the domain to make happen. Then it is close to Spark Arena and the Tennis centre. Sadly that ship has sailed. I am vehemently opposed to building anything in the water, it is tantamount to madness. The least worst option is Mount Smart. It is reasonably central, the right shape, and is an excellent venue to watch league and see concerts. It is in the middle of industrial land so no pesky neighbours to complain about the noise. I don't see why they couldn't leave the new East Stand and build brand new stands on the other 3 sides, spend money to comprehensively upgrade Penrose train station and build a bus terminal and even a carpark tower. Yes it is further from town but that's what the trains are for and it's only a 15-20 minute express ride into town. Western Springs turns into a cricket ground and the Eden Park Trust is dissolved and the land is subdivided to pay for the whole thing. Trust Arena in Waitakere has a running track and a small stand, it could be developed a little more for athletics if they wanted to
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@shark said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
I'm getting sick of all this stadium garbage. Auckland needs a flash new stadium in an appropriate spot and it may as well be a 'national stadium' and get all the big games. This also makes the debate I envision for Christchurch around the size and nature of our stadium to be a lot simpler as there won't be an argument for winning tier 1 tests and needing 35,000+ seats, which currently isn't in the plan.
There are too many conflicting interest groups up here. That is why we have the hotchpotch setup that exists today. The city could do with one quality cricket venue and one multi-use stadium for the rugby codes, football, and concerts. My choice would have been Western Springs for cricket (nice natural bowl in an oval shape already) and to build a steep sided narrow footprint stadium (like the one in Hong Kong) at the old Carlaw Park site which would have required a little land from the domain to make happen. Then it is close to Spark Arena and the Tennis centre. Sadly that ship has sailed. I am vehemently opposed to building anything in the water, it is tantamount to madness. The least worst option is Mount Smart. It is reasonably central, the right shape, and is an excellent venue to watch league and see concerts. It is in the middle of industrial land so no pesky neighbours to complain about the noise. I don't see why they couldn't leave the new East Stand and build brand new stands on the other 3 sides, spend money to comprehensively upgrade Penrose train station and build a bus terminal and even a carpark tower. Yes it is further from town but that's what the trains are for and it's only a 15-20 minute express ride into town. Western Springs turns into a cricket ground and the Eden Park Trust is dissolved and the land is subdivided to pay for the whole thing. Trust Arena in Waitakere has a running track and a small stand, it could be developed a little more for athletics if they wanted to
@canefan said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
@shark said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
I'm getting sick of all this stadium garbage. Auckland needs a flash new stadium in an appropriate spot and it may as well be a 'national stadium' and get all the big games. This also makes the debate I envision for Christchurch around the size and nature of our stadium to be a lot simpler as there won't be an argument for winning tier 1 tests and needing 35,000+ seats, which currently isn't in the plan.
It is reasonably central, the right shape, and is an excellent venue to watch league and see concerts. It is in the middle of industrial land so no pesky neighbours to complain about the noise.
Not yet at least...people like moving next to these facilities and then moan about them.
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@canefan said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
@shark said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
I'm getting sick of all this stadium garbage. Auckland needs a flash new stadium in an appropriate spot and it may as well be a 'national stadium' and get all the big games. This also makes the debate I envision for Christchurch around the size and nature of our stadium to be a lot simpler as there won't be an argument for winning tier 1 tests and needing 35,000+ seats, which currently isn't in the plan.
It is reasonably central, the right shape, and is an excellent venue to watch league and see concerts. It is in the middle of industrial land so no pesky neighbours to complain about the noise.
Not yet at least...people like moving next to these facilities and then moan about them.
@taniwharugby said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
@canefan said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
@shark said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
I'm getting sick of all this stadium garbage. Auckland needs a flash new stadium in an appropriate spot and it may as well be a 'national stadium' and get all the big games. This also makes the debate I envision for Christchurch around the size and nature of our stadium to be a lot simpler as there won't be an argument for winning tier 1 tests and needing 35,000+ seats, which currently isn't in the plan.
It is reasonably central, the right shape, and is an excellent venue to watch league and see concerts. It is in the middle of industrial land so no pesky neighbours to complain about the noise.
Not yet at least...people like moving next to these facilities and then moan about them.
Not this time. Harness the unitary plan and set the rules now. Fuck people moving into the area, they should know the rules before they buy in
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@taniwharugby said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
@canefan said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
@shark said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
I'm getting sick of all this stadium garbage. Auckland needs a flash new stadium in an appropriate spot and it may as well be a 'national stadium' and get all the big games. This also makes the debate I envision for Christchurch around the size and nature of our stadium to be a lot simpler as there won't be an argument for winning tier 1 tests and needing 35,000+ seats, which currently isn't in the plan.
It is reasonably central, the right shape, and is an excellent venue to watch league and see concerts. It is in the middle of industrial land so no pesky neighbours to complain about the noise.
Not yet at least...people like moving next to these facilities and then moan about them.
Not this time. Harness the unitary plan and set the rules now. Fuck people moving into the area, they should know the rules before they buy in
@canefan rules dont stop people moaning...
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https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12204726
Talked with a mate who has good knowledge of the EP problem. He was saying that under the current system the residents not only block the number of events, they can block any attempt to bowl the place and build houses. Something about the land being zoned for a stadium. It will take a big fuck you from local and maybe even central government to push it through
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https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12204726
Talked with a mate who has good knowledge of the EP problem. He was saying that under the current system the residents not only block the number of events, they can block any attempt to bowl the place and build houses. Something about the land being zoned for a stadium. It will take a big fuck you from local and maybe even central government to push it through
@canefan said in Eden Park - the fortress no one wants:
Talked with a mate who has good knowledge of the EP problem. He was saying that under the current system the residents not only block the number of events, they can block any attempt to bowl the place and build houses. Something about the land being zoned for a stadium. It will take a big fuck you from local and maybe even central government to push it through
I know an Eden Park resident, park at their place for big games, and I think it's a myth that the 'residents' are anti events etc. There's a minority of stick in the muds but most residents knew what they were getting in for when they moved into the area.
They had a big shindig before the 2011 RWC at Eden Park where NZR/AKL council took them through everything that was going to happen etc and they had a bit of a meal and drinks etc.
