AB's v Wales
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@no-quarter said in AB's v Wales:
Luke Whitelock starting at 8 shows our lack of depth in that position. The coaches have to bear some responsibility there, they haven't developed anyone at all in that position. They seemed to try Ardie for a while but then canned that and haven't done anything since.
They can only select from what players look like they can make the step up at Super level. Then the "spare" can only develop his craft against second tier teams. Same issue we had when McCaw was fit - just a different position.
@antipodean said in AB's v Wales:
@no-quarter said in AB's v Wales:
Luke Whitelock starting at 8 shows our lack of depth in that position. The coaches have to bear some responsibility there, they haven't developed anyone at all in that position. They seemed to try Ardie for a while but then canned that and haven't done anything since.
They can only select from what players look like they can make the step up at Super level. Then the "spare" can only develop his craft against second tier teams. Same issue we had when McCaw was fit - just a different position.
That's a fair point, though with McCaw we at least had Cane replacing him who had been in the squad for some time and had test experience. As it is we're throwing Luke in the deep end after leaving him in the wilderness for years.
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Luke Whitelock starting at 8 shows our lack of depth in that position. The coaches have to bear some responsibility there, they haven't developed anyone at all in that position. They seemed to try Ardie for a while but then canned that and haven't done anything since.
I hope Luke goes well, as others have noted he's not the player he was when he first made the team, so I'm confident he will make a good go of it.
@no-quarter is tough really, people were critical of the lack of depth at 10 for both 2007 & 2011, but really, for 2011 in particular, could ANY team plan for that situation, and still win?
You don't want to give a guy time just cos, you play to win, and if keeping the captain on for 80 is the best way to achieve that, then that's how we do it?
This coaching group have shown they like to have their captain out there for 80 pretty much week in week out.
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Luke Whitelock starting at 8 shows our lack of depth in that position. The coaches have to bear some responsibility there, they haven't developed anyone at all in that position. They seemed to try Ardie for a while but then canned that and haven't done anything since.
I hope Luke goes well, as others have noted he's not the player he was when he first made the team, so I'm confident he will make a good go of it.
@no-quarter said in AB's v Wales:
Luke Whitelock starting at 8 shows our lack of depth in that position. The coaches have to bear some responsibility there, they haven't developed anyone at all in that position. They seemed to try Ardie for a while but then canned that and haven't done anything since.
I hope Luke goes well, as others have noted he's not the player he was when he first made the team, so I'm confident he will make a good go of it.
Steve Luatua.
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Victor Vito
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Luke Whitelock starting at 8 shows our lack of depth in that position. The coaches have to bear some responsibility there, they haven't developed anyone at all in that position. They seemed to try Ardie for a while but then canned that and haven't done anything since.
I hope Luke goes well, as others have noted he's not the player he was when he first made the team, so I'm confident he will make a good go of it.
@no-quarter said in AB's v Wales:
Luke Whitelock starting at 8 shows our lack of depth in that position. The coaches have to bear some responsibility there, they haven't developed anyone at all in that position. They seemed to try Ardie for a while but then canned that and haven't done anything since.
I hope Luke goes well, as others have noted he's not the player he was when he first made the team, so I'm confident he will make a good go of it.
I don't for a minute think our coaches are beyond reproach in terms of the way they've handled the succession of various positions. At hooker, for instance, they persisted on and on with just Mealamu and Hore, and eventually got lucky that Coles came along - with no discernible Plan B.
Similarly, No. 8. The real plan B. is Squire, but he hasn't actually played there yet - and now they need him at 6 this weekend, so Luke's thrown in at 8.
Actually, I think he'll be fine - I wrote a month or so back that there's a good prospect that he's the second best No. 8 in the country.
But, to the critique of the coaches, I'd add the selection of TKB for a farewell tour. What's been the point and why the contrast against the (non) selection of Luatua?
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@kruse said in AB's v Wales:
Our forward pack containing only 2 first-choice players...
Luckily everybody's all about the wide/expansive/"playing with intent" game nowadays, and all that forwards-nonsense doesn't matter anymore.The backline is only really one player short of full strength (or two depending on wing selection)
@crucial said in AB's v Wales:
@kruse said in AB's v Wales:
Our forward pack containing only 2 first-choice players...
Luckily everybody's all about the wide/expansive/"playing with intent" game nowadays, and all that forwards-nonsense doesn't matter anymore.The backline is only really one player short of full strength (or two depending on wing selection)
Yeah - I was conveniently ignoring that, in the name of "expectation management".
Claim the underdog spot.
Etc, etc.
In any case - if we do go by stereotypes/generalisations - I guess we'd be hoping for a closed roof... with WalesOnline predicting a snap weather change - "hail and rain are expected in Cardiff". -
Re: my post about DMac clocking up the miles. Had a chance for a quick look and added to playing every minute of every game for the Chiefs in Super Rugby he has played every minute bar two substitutions in 9 AB tests plus whatever time he played in the Maori vs Lions game.
He may not be taking as much impact per game as a loose forward but he is sure a resilient little bugger the way he bounces back after getting smashed. -
Re: my post about DMac clocking up the miles. Had a chance for a quick look and added to playing every minute of every game for the Chiefs in Super Rugby he has played every minute bar two substitutions in 9 AB tests plus whatever time he played in the Maori vs Lions game.
He may not be taking as much impact per game as a loose forward but he is sure a resilient little bugger the way he bounces back after getting smashed. -
@crucial said in AB's v Wales:
@kruse said in AB's v Wales:
Our forward pack containing only 2 first-choice players...
Luckily everybody's all about the wide/expansive/"playing with intent" game nowadays, and all that forwards-nonsense doesn't matter anymore.The backline is only really one player short of full strength (or two depending on wing selection)
Yeah - I was conveniently ignoring that, in the name of "expectation management".
Claim the underdog spot.
Etc, etc.
In any case - if we do go by stereotypes/generalisations - I guess we'd be hoping for a closed roof... with WalesOnline predicting a snap weather change - "hail and rain are expected in Cardiff".@kruse said in AB's v Wales:
@crucial said in AB's v Wales:
@kruse said in AB's v Wales:
Our forward pack containing only 2 first-choice players...
Luckily everybody's all about the wide/expansive/"playing with intent" game nowadays, and all that forwards-nonsense doesn't matter anymore.The backline is only really one player short of full strength (or two depending on wing selection)
Yeah - I was conveniently ignoring that, in the name of "expectation management".
Claim the underdog spot.
Etc, etc.
In any case - if we do go by stereotypes/generalisations - I guess we'd be hoping for a closed roof... with WalesOnline predicting a snap weather change - "hail and rain are expected in Cardiff".Haven't they got a roof?
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@kruse said in AB's v Wales:
@crucial said in AB's v Wales:
@kruse said in AB's v Wales:
Our forward pack containing only 2 first-choice players...
Luckily everybody's all about the wide/expansive/"playing with intent" game nowadays, and all that forwards-nonsense doesn't matter anymore.The backline is only really one player short of full strength (or two depending on wing selection)
Yeah - I was conveniently ignoring that, in the name of "expectation management".
Claim the underdog spot.
Etc, etc.
In any case - if we do go by stereotypes/generalisations - I guess we'd be hoping for a closed roof... with WalesOnline predicting a snap weather change - "hail and rain are expected in Cardiff".Haven't they got a roof?
@booboo Yeah - exactly, hence "we'd be hoping for a closed roof"..
although, now I think about it - is it the visiting team which gets the choice anyway?
And - with a forecast including hail... I guess everybody involved would be pretty happy with it closed. -
@booboo Yeah - exactly, hence "we'd be hoping for a closed roof"..
although, now I think about it - is it the visiting team which gets the choice anyway?
And - with a forecast including hail... I guess everybody involved would be pretty happy with it closed.@kruse said in AB's v Wales:
@booboo Yeah - exactly, hence "we'd be hoping for a closed roof"..
although, now I think about it - is it the visiting team which gets the choice anyway?
And - with a forecast including hail... I guess everybody involved would be pretty happy with it closed.Yes, yes and thrice yes
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Meg was on the radio this morning
'Yes, NZ is missing a lot of their best players
But so is Wales
And the impact will be greater on Wales
NZ by 15-20'Can't argue with that logic
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Meg was on the radio this morning
'Yes, NZ is missing a lot of their best players
But so is Wales
And the impact will be greater on Wales
NZ by 15-20'Can't argue with that logic
@mikethesnow said in AB's v Wales:
Meg was on the radio this morning
'Yes, NZ is missing a lot of their best players
But so is Wales
And the impact will be greater on Wales
NZ by 15-20'Can't argue with that logic
He missed out 'and the Wales coach is a complete knobgobbling twat'
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@no-quarter said in AB's v Wales:
Luke Whitelock starting at 8 shows our lack of depth in that position. The coaches have to bear some responsibility there, they haven't developed anyone at all in that position. They seemed to try Ardie for a while but then canned that and haven't done anything since.
I hope Luke goes well, as others have noted he's not the player he was when he first made the team, so I'm confident he will make a good go of it.
I don't for a minute think our coaches are beyond reproach in terms of the way they've handled the succession of various positions. At hooker, for instance, they persisted on and on with just Mealamu and Hore, and eventually got lucky that Coles came along - with no discernible Plan B.
Similarly, No. 8. The real plan B. is Squire, but he hasn't actually played there yet - and now they need him at 6 this weekend, so Luke's thrown in at 8.
Actually, I think he'll be fine - I wrote a month or so back that there's a good prospect that he's the second best No. 8 in the country.
But, to the critique of the coaches, I'd add the selection of TKB for a farewell tour. What's been the point and why the contrast against the (non) selection of Luatua?
@chris-b said in AB's v Wales:
I don't for a minute think our coaches are beyond reproach in terms of the way they've handled the succession of various positions. At hooker, for instance, they persisted on and on with just Mealamu and Hore, and eventually got lucky that Coles came along - with no discernible Plan B.
Probably not the best example - they looked at a bunch of hookers, and very deliberately worked with Coles to lift his game. He became a far far better player after time in black with the coaching staff.
I'd say deliberate planning contributed more than luck
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@chris-b said in AB's v Wales:
I don't for a minute think our coaches are beyond reproach in terms of the way they've handled the succession of various positions. At hooker, for instance, they persisted on and on with just Mealamu and Hore, and eventually got lucky that Coles came along - with no discernible Plan B.
Probably not the best example - they looked at a bunch of hookers, and very deliberately worked with Coles to lift his game. He became a far far better player after time in black with the coaching staff.
I'd say deliberate planning contributed more than luck
@nzzp said in AB's v Wales:
@chris-b said in AB's v Wales:
I don't for a minute think our coaches are beyond reproach in terms of the way they've handled the succession of various positions. At hooker, for instance, they persisted on and on with just Mealamu and Hore, and eventually got lucky that Coles came along - with no discernible Plan B.
Probably not the best example - they looked at a bunch of hookers, and very deliberately worked with Coles to lift his game. He became a far far better player after time in black with the coaching staff.
I'd say deliberate planning contributed more than luck
For a moment I thought you were talking about K' Rd...
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@pakman said in AB's v Wales:
@tim said in AB's v Wales:
@pakman said in AB's v Wales:
From the Blues games I saw this year I think he's currently better at 6, but against that he doesn't have the tackling impact which Squire brings and I think the ABs are looking for in their 6s.
Bullshit. He has more physical impact on the tackle by far. Watch Squire against Australia in Brisbane this year. He no impact - so often he was second tackler and added nothing. Combine with his ruck inspecting. Then watch the semifinal against the Crusaders - he did nothing.
Very low work rate player who was dumped from the Chiefs for it. The most overrated player in NZ by far.
Well, from where I sit, Akira has had a bit of a tendency to be a scragger, in a similar mould to Savea (A) and Fifita, who to be fair did seem more physical when I watched the Scotland tape last night.
Compare with JK and Cane, who really get shoulder impact and are effective stoppers -- Shag's dominant tackles.
I'd put Squire more in the latter camp. One or two decent hits on Saturday. Tackles high, which does run risk of penalties for 'seat belt' tackling.That said, I agree he was pretty ineffective in Brisbane, and watching the weekend's tape seemed more to be looking to defend the fringes than getting his head into the dark spaces. Didn't see Clan semi so have to take your word for that.
But isn't it also a question of style? Seems that big hitting rampaging 6s are often less effective at ruck time. Compare with John Barclay, who isn't as physical, but on Saturday was almost like a second 7, and caused ABs a few problems at ruck time. Richard Hill was also similar, but absolutely key to the 2003 England team.
Surely much of that comes down to the skillset dictated by the defensive coach? eg are we going in to disrupt so the rest of the defence is aligned and ready or are we going to reduce the threat of pick and goes by having big hitters waiting on the fringes?
In past seasons we have gone for JK looking to smash runners backward while the world's best disrupter was doing his work at the breakdown.
Now Cane has taken more of the hard tackler role and while we still want our 6 to put the shoulder in, that isn't their main role. We are looking for carries from 6, something we didn't see a huge amount of from JK.
Both Fifita and Squire are good ball carriers. They just need to learn to link to support better.@crucial said in AB's v Wales:
@pakman said in AB's v Wales:
@tim said in AB's v Wales:
@pakman said in AB's v Wales:
From the Blues games I saw this year I think he's currently better at 6, but against that he doesn't have the tackling impact which Squire brings and I think the ABs are looking for in their 6s.
Bullshit. He has more physical impact on the tackle by far. Watch Squire against Australia in Brisbane this year. He no impact - so often he was second tackler and added nothing. Combine with his ruck inspecting. Then watch the semifinal against the Crusaders - he did nothing.
Very low work rate player who was dumped from the Chiefs for it. The most overrated player in NZ by far.
Well, from where I sit, Akira has had a bit of a tendency to be a scragger, in a similar mould to Savea (A) and Fifita, who to be fair did seem more physical when I watched the Scotland tape last night.
Compare with JK and Cane, who really get shoulder impact and are effective stoppers -- Shag's dominant tackles.
I'd put Squire more in the latter camp. One or two decent hits on Saturday. Tackles high, which does run risk of penalties for 'seat belt' tackling.That said, I agree he was pretty ineffective in Brisbane, and watching the weekend's tape seemed more to be looking to defend the fringes than getting his head into the dark spaces. Didn't see Clan semi so have to take your word for that.
But isn't it also a question of style? Seems that big hitting rampaging 6s are often less effective at ruck time. Compare with John Barclay, who isn't as physical, but on Saturday was almost like a second 7, and caused ABs a few problems at ruck time. Richard Hill was also similar, but absolutely key to the 2003 England team.
Surely much of that comes down to the skillset dictated by the defensive coach? eg are we going in to disrupt so the rest of the defence is aligned and ready or are we going to reduce the threat of pick and goes by having big hitters waiting on the fringes?
In past seasons we have gone for JK looking to smash runners backward while the world's best disrupter was doing his work at the breakdown.
Now Cane has taken more of the hard tackler role and while we still want our 6 to put the shoulder in, that isn't their main role. We are looking for carries from 6, something we didn't see a huge amount of from JK.
Both Fifita and Squire are good ball carriers. They just need to learn to link to support better.Interesting that when Shag was discussing Whitelock (L)'s selection at 8 he emphasised his high workrate. Akira didn't rate a mention.
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Don't understand the love for Akira. People are looking at the huge potential and not the actual player that he is now. Does he dominate the tackle on the ruck fringes? Does he bounce back to his feet after every tackle to make another? Does he shift bodies at the breakdown? Does he make meters in the tight exchanges? I don't think so yet.
Does he run good support lines? Does he make good meters in the loose? Does he have a good passing/support game? Yes, he does I think.
Let the man develop! He is a young fella who needs to build up strength and impact to cope with test rugby at 6 or 8.What I have seen of Luke.W is that he has developed the areas of the game that Akira lacks at the moment. Not as much of a highlights player but a good solid unit especially in tight, physical games (Crusaders vs Clan this year).
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Don't understand the love for Akira. People are looking at the huge potential and not the actual player that he is now. Does he dominate the tackle on the ruck fringes? Does he bounce back to his feet after every tackle to make another? Does he shift bodies at the breakdown? Does he make meters in the tight exchanges? I don't think so yet.
Does he run good support lines? Does he make good meters in the loose? Does he have a good passing/support game? Yes, he does I think.
Let the man develop! He is a young fella who needs to build up strength and impact to cope with test rugby at 6 or 8.What I have seen of Luke.W is that he has developed the areas of the game that Akira lacks at the moment. Not as much of a highlights player but a good solid unit especially in tight, physical games (Crusaders vs Clan this year).
And, I think he's playing the most similar game to Read at the moment too, who has been a bit tight for me (I can't remember the last time I saw him ranging on the fringes giving offloads), but perhaps that's to do with them shifting the role of the 6 a bit and looking for that sort of game from the young sixes. With that in mind, I like the balance of Squire, Whitelock and Cane, but I think there is a lot of pressure on Squire to contribute. Long term, I guess that Squire is the 8 in waiting, but perhaps there is a place for Whitelock as the guy who can be called in (ala Matt Todd) to start when needed.
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And, I think he's playing the most similar game to Read at the moment too, who has been a bit tight for me (I can't remember the last time I saw him ranging on the fringes giving offloads), but perhaps that's to do with them shifting the role of the 6 a bit and looking for that sort of game from the young sixes. With that in mind, I like the balance of Squire, Whitelock and Cane, but I think there is a lot of pressure on Squire to contribute. Long term, I guess that Squire is the 8 in waiting, but perhaps there is a place for Whitelock as the guy who can be called in (ala Matt Todd) to start when needed.
@gt12 Suspect Read has been tighter partly in response to BBBR, Franks and Moody being out. Have noticed Squire has been loitering out wide, and scored a couple of nice tries as a result. Whitelock probably being asked to play a 'tight Read' game.
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@chris-b said in AB's v Wales:
I don't for a minute think our coaches are beyond reproach in terms of the way they've handled the succession of various positions. At hooker, for instance, they persisted on and on with just Mealamu and Hore, and eventually got lucky that Coles came along - with no discernible Plan B.
Probably not the best example - they looked at a bunch of hookers, and very deliberately worked with Coles to lift his game. He became a far far better player after time in black with the coaching staff.
I'd say deliberate planning contributed more than luck
@nzzp said in AB's v Wales:
@chris-b said in AB's v Wales:
I don't for a minute think our coaches are beyond reproach in terms of the way they've handled the succession of various positions. At hooker, for instance, they persisted on and on with just Mealamu and Hore, and eventually got lucky that Coles came along - with no discernible Plan B.
Probably not the best example - they looked at a bunch of hookers...
Did they?
My memory is that they went out of their way not to give people like Flynn and Elliot game time, even when Mealamu and Hore were creaking into their mid-thirties. I think they used de Malmanche briefly - but, Flynn ADM and Eliot pretty much only got a run when one of the top two was injured and acquired barely a handful of test starts among them (in fact, four).
