NH International Rugby

[Catogrande]

So Mr Percentage has announced his squad to play Wales in the first RWC warm up game this weekend, with the actual RWC squad named the following week, with further warm up games to come. Not too many surprises in the weekend squad, although Eddie's continued inability to consider a viable back up to Ben Youngs at 9 is again apparent. No place for Cipriani (not a surprise but baffling to a degree) and only a part time back up at No8.

Full weekend squad:-

Forwards: Dan Cole (Leicester), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter), Tom Curry (Sale), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Ellis Genge (Leicester), Jamie George (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Jack Singleton (Saracens), Sam Underhill (Bath), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter), Mark Wilson (Sale).

Backs: Joe Cokanasiga (Bath), Elliot Daly (Saracens), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester), Piers Francis (Northampton), Willi Heinz (Gloucester), Jonathan Joseph (Bath), Joe Marchant (Harlequins), Jonny May (Leicester), Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath), Henry Slade (Exeter), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester), Anthony Watson (Bath), Ben Youngs (Leicester).

Yes. Willi Heinz. That is not a typo.

[MiketheSnow]

Who knows what will happen this weekend

[Catogrande]

@MiketheSnow

Faletau is a big loss for you. Moriarty is a fine replacement but doesn't quite offer as much variety. Haven't seen your squad yet, but I'm sort of hoping Gatland leaves as many holes in his squad as Eddie is doing. Doubt it though.

[MiketheSnow]

@Catogrande said in NH International Rugby:

@MiketheSnow

Faletau is a big loss for you. Moriarty is a fine replacement but doesn't quite offer as much variety. Haven't seen your squad yet, but I'm sort of hoping Gatland leaves as many holes in his squad as Eddie is doing. Doubt it though.

Strongest, most balanced squad going in to a WC.

Lots can happen in the next 4 matches though.

[Daffy Jaffy]

[Daffy Jaffy]

[E African Troll]

@Catogrande said in NH International Rugby:

@MiketheSnow

Faletau is a big loss for you. Moriarty is a fine replacement but doesn't quite offer as much variety. Haven't seen your squad yet, but I'm sort of hoping Gatland leaves as many holes in his squad as Eddie is doing. Doubt it though.

Faletau of 2016/17 is a big loss World class player Starting #8 for Lions if healthy

Faletau of 2019 is no great loss Injury prone and not durable Body is breaking down

Moriaty is a much inferior player in comparison & would not start for Wales
if all other players were healthy and struggle to make their matchday squad

TBH Wales will really miss Ellis Jenkins- brilliant player who plays #6 #7 #8

I expect him to be next captain of Wales when AWJ likely retires from Int'l Rugby in 2021 post Lions tour to SA

[E African Troll]

@Catogrande

The likes of Will Heinz "playing for England" is the reason why I don't support ENG despite having strong links to ENG

A 2nd rate Kiwi has no business playing for ENG

What do Kiwi members of TSF think of this fucking turncoat

[E African Troll]

@Daffy-Jaffy

Italians taking the piss again with Mercenary players

Callum Braley born and bred in ENG

ENG U20 captain but has a Italian granddad so plays for Italy

This quote below is disgusting Int'l Rugby not a shopping centre where you
pick & choose what nation you want to to play and game the system

“As a kid I always dreamt of playing international rugby and I always knew that could be two avenues
so it’s one of them, whichever came first and gave me that opportunity and believed in me the most,”

[Stargazer]

@Jaguares4real There's no reason whatsoever to call him names! Personally, I don't think he's good enough for test rugby, but he is eligible under the grandparent rule, not the residency rule, so good on him if he gets selected and takes his opportunities.

[Catogrande]

@Jaguares4real said in NH International Rugby:

@Catogrande

The likes of Will Heinz "playing for England" is the reason why I don't support ENG despite having strong links to ENG

A 2nd rate Kiwi has no business playing for ENG

What do Kiwi members of TSF think of this fucking turncoat

To be honest the "mercenary" aspect of International qualification has been done to death on here (and other sites) and we have a set of rules and mostly these are adhered to. Whether one likes the rules or not is another matter. I am not happy about the Grandparent rule as a for instance but I can see how this can benefit some of the smaller nations, the PIs in particular. It seems that every time a rule is changed to protect one part of the game it causes a problem elsewhere. What is the answer? Fucked if I know.

However I am distinctly uncomfortable with England picking guys like Heinz, Shields and Waldrom. Sure it's within the rules but it just does not feel right to me.

[E African Troll]

@Stargazer

I'm aware of Heinz using Granny Rule

I'm being accurate in calling him a turncoat
Nothing personal but calling it as I see it

Heinz was not sniffing an ABs cap yet alone be good for play for Crusaders so he goes to ENG

There's also a big financial aspect to this with appearance money & other bonuses attached to playing for ENG

The likes of Heinz and Bralley IMO bring the game into Disrepute
Cheating!!!!

[Catogrande]

And Heinz is due to start and earn his first cap.

[MiketheSnow]

@Catogrande said in NH International Rugby:

And Heinz is due to start and earn his first cap.

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/3195/pre-rwc-test-matches/87

[E African Troll]

@Machpants said in NH International Rugby:

It's a fact that tests are stating to be seen as not tests, the disgusting fucking shit soccer word friendlies has entered
the rugby vernacular even the bloody AB's are happy to accept loses as long as the RWC is won. **
So, to attempt to stop this inevitable slide of non RWC games into irrelevance**

I wish I'd joined TSF 6 months earlier

I'm looking forward to watching the pre RWC friendlies this weekend: :face_with_tears_of_joy:

Italy vs Ireland (2nd team)

Wales vs England (B Team)

[Higgins]

@Catogrande said in NH International Rugby:

However I am distinctly uncomfortable with England picking guys like Heinz, Shields and Waldrom. Sure it's within the rules but it just does not feel right to me.

I find it delightfully ironic that pretty much the only teams that do not embrace the "grandparent rule" are the SANZAR nations.

[Stargazer]

@Jaguares4real No, it's not cheating and calling someone like Heinz a turncoat isn't justified at all.

There are three points of view to look at this. That of the player, the (selectors of the) national team that calls up the player to represent the country, and World Rugby.

Player
Assuming every player would like to represent his country, he is bound by the eligibility rules set by others. Reasons for aspiring to play test rugby can vary, and include reasons like national pride, representing family and heritage, and even financial reasons. They're all valid (yes, financial reasons, too; it's a professional sport and careers are relatively short compared to other professions). I'm not saying that I like it when players play for a certain national team for financial reasons, by the way.

I have read an interview with Heinz after he got selected and it was a nice story about his English grandmother and wanting to make her proud, and totally believable. He was just as surprised about his selection as many others, but I can't see any reason for why he should not accept the invitation from the selectors. As for players with financial reasons to accept an invitation to play for a national team: nobody would say no to a big bonus from his employer, or would you?

National selectors
The national team selectors should select the best possible players that are eligible. You can question that decision in this case, but I don't know anything about the current English halfback pool to know whether there are better (fit) halfbacks available. I don't think national selectors have to make the decision of whether players who weren't born in the country or developed their rugby skills and experience in another country, should or should not be selected (except maybe for the so-called "project players" and targeted, intentional poaching). They simply have to respect the eligibility criteria and then pick the players that best fit the profile of the player they're looking to select for their team.

World Rugby
And then there's World Rugby, that sets the eligibility criteria. If someone is to blame for national teams selecting players who weren't born in the country or developed their rugby skills and experience in another country, it's the organisation that sets the rules. And WR has to consider all the options and considerations pro and contra.

As @Catogrande rightly pointed out, in the case of some small countries (including the Pacific Nations) there is something to say for the grandparent rule, because otherwise it may be hard for emigration countries (i.e. countries with a net emigration, as opposed to immigration countries with a net immigration) to select a team of quality players. Migration, for whatever reason, is an important reality; certainly for countries that are former colonies or for poor countries.

Migration means that ties to new countries are established, but doesn't necessarily mean that ties to the old country will be cut. It has always been that way, and probably always will. National or cultural heritage plays a bigger role in some cultures (e.g. the Pacific cultures) than in others; some feel very strong ties to the country in which their grandparents were born. It's something that needs to be respected.

World Rugby has a difficult job to set eligibility rules in this reality; maybe, one day the grandparent rule will disappear; or maybe they'll limit its application to certain nations (good luck with that!). They already have restricted the residency rule from 3 to 5 years. But it's World Rugby where the responsibility lies; not the player, not the national team selectors.

So blaming a player for accepting an invitation to represent the national team of the country in which his grandparent was born is silly. Calling him a turncoat is ridiculous if you can't prove that that player moved to the country of his grandparent with the sole or main objective of making the national team of that country. I think it's fair to say that making the England team wasn't the reason for Heinz signing a contract with an English club and moving there.

[Catogrande]

@Higgins said in NH International Rugby:

@Catogrande said in NH International Rugby:

However I am distinctly uncomfortable with England picking guys like Heinz, Shields and Waldrom. Sure it's within the rules but it just does not feel right to me.

I find it delightfully ironic that pretty much the only teams that do not embrace the "grandparent rule" are the SANZAR nations.

Net immigration might have a bearing on that.

[Billy Tell]

@Jaguares4real said in NH International Rugby:

@Catogrande

The likes of Will Heinz "playing for England" is the reason why I don't support ENG despite having strong links to ENG

A 2nd rate Kiwi has no business playing for ENG

What do Kiwi members of TSF think of this fucking turncoat

Are you Argentinian?

If not you're a f*cking turncoat yourself.

[Bones]

@Billy-Tell said in NH International Rugby:

@Jaguares4real said in NH International Rugby:

@Catogrande

The likes of Will Heinz "playing for England" is the reason why I don't support ENG despite having strong links to ENG

A 2nd rate Kiwi has no business playing for ENG

What do Kiwi members of TSF think of this fucking turncoat

Are you Argentinian?

If not you're a f*cking turncoat yourself.

Irony and comprehension are not its strong points.