NH International Rugby
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@nzzp said in NH International Rugby:
@mariner4life good comment. I think that if that's the outcome you are looking for, you have to change the laws about what is acceptable and what is not. Right now those tackles are rewarded, and if they go slightly wrong it's a red. So there is an element of risk/reward for people to trade off in training and the game.
For me, one key issue is that we're pinging the outcome (head contact), and not really trying hard to make that a super unusual situation that is avoidable.
So, how about this. We trade off in both directions. Take the front on tackle largely out of the game (maybe with the exception of the tryline), and limit tackles to under the nipple line. BUT - give something back - once the tackled player is down (knee or body), the offload is out of the game. Gone. You can place it, but you can't pop it up. Means that you can still have a decent game without massively advantaging the attacking players, and there needs to be some seriously good reason to try those ball and all tackles
Definitely. Popping it up off the ground drives me crazy. For starters it just plain bullshit that goes against the very essence of rugby, for seconds it encourages the tackling techniques they want to eradicate.
I posted this last year btw, that's why I think it is a good idea.
I still find the sport unwatchable at the moment. I'm giving me a couple years of a sky-less break. Until these dumbarse lawmakers sort it out and the dumbarse players and coaches adapt.
@rapido can i ask why? and which game you watched that had so many it became an issue for me? i barely see any of them.
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@nzzp said in NH International Rugby:
@machpants said in NH International Rugby:
@junior as always, you're a pro player, don't be there. Taking it to ridiculous extremes, if the only way you can stop a try being scored is to kick the person in the head, do you do it? If you can't take within the laws, don't tackle. I liked it cos it takes interpretation out. Can't roll away? Tough shit, make your tackle completion so you end on the correct side. Can't get low enough to tackle without head contact? Pull out of the tackle
taking it to your extreme, remember you can't tackle a player in the air. So, what about between strides - if you get your timing wrong, you hit someone wihtout feet on the ground ... and that's on you right?
The tackle laws are a bit of a lottery. It's annoying seeing players making a fair bit of an effort, and still copping reds. Aki today, Ofa last year. It's damn annoying. If the objective is safety, there needs to be some onus on the carrying player to either stay high, or not lead with the head
my first impression of that red was "oh bullshit!!!"
but
Aki doesn't actually get that low, both guys are upright, because Aki wants to make a solid ball-and-all hit. Tackled player contributes, but not hugely. If you are trying to change behaviors, then this is the right track. Guys aren't learning the lesson, why are they not copping heat for it? Aim for below the ball.
I'm coming around to the idea that the "what else is he supposed to do there?" crowd are actually wrong. You are too slow to the cleanout so your "only option" is full pelt in to him? so what, you should have been earlier, turnover is good. You aimed for the chest and he dipped in to you? so what, should have aimed at the waist (if there is an offload, even better). We might even get the benefit of a more open game less dominated by enormous units pounding the fuck out of each other.
And if that means i have to put up the red cards, so be it.
I don't really have a problem with the Aki red, he hits hit well about the ball and make direct head contact. I think you are bang on about defenders needing to just be lower. There are many instances in a game where a player might be able to make an illegal tackle (e.g. clothesline the guy who stepped you) but just don't do it anymore because it will be an automatic yellow (possible red). I think you are right that to get that change, we need to get really hard on it.
One tricky thing is when players lead with their head. On that one, I'm not sure at all - you see this whenever someone is trying to drive over the line - pretty much every tackle makes head contact - what do we do in that situation?
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@rapido can i ask why? and which game you watched that had so many it became an issue for me? i barely see any of them.
@mariner4life said in NH International Rugby:
@rapido can i ask why? and which game you watched that had so many it became an issue for me? i barely see any of them.
It's not that common, but it's a bit of joke how long it often takes. Having said that, right now I'm with you - apart from mauls I want as many advantages for the attacking player as there can be.
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I don't really have a problem with the Aki red, he hits hit well about the ball and make direct head contact. I think you are bang on about defenders needing to just be lower. There are many instances in a game where a player might be able to make an illegal tackle (e.g. clothesline the guy who stepped you) but just don't do it anymore because it will be an automatic yellow (possible red). I think you are right that to get that change, we need to get really hard on it.
One tricky thing is when players lead with their head. On that one, I'm not sure at all - you see this whenever someone is trying to drive over the line - pretty much every tackle makes head contact - what do we do in that situation?
@gt12 if AFL umpires can work out the difference, i reckon a rugby ref can
i got done for a high shot against a guy bent at the waist 15 years ago (it absolutely was, and i absolutely meant it), so this is not something new the ref has to work out
Rugby is a game of constantly moving parts, we can't make any change if we try and take out every single possible variable.
I would also make the point that the repeat pick and go on the line is a thing right now even with the new guidelines, and i haven't seen too many called red, so there must be a mechanism in place.
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@rapido can i ask why? and which game you watched that had so many it became an issue for me? i barely see any of them.
@mariner4life said in NH International Rugby:
@rapido can i ask why? and which game you watched that had so many it became an issue for me? i barely see any of them.
Any time I see a try with a pop off the ground, I inwardly groan and wonder why the game hates defenders. I've even seen a 10 metre sideways 'pop' directly to a wide player who runs in the try (in my fuzzy memory I am seeing an Otago FIjian winger in this memory). It's a 'pass' Trapper Loveridge would have been proud of. A guy has done a perfectly text book tackle and his reward is for the ball carrier to hold onto it like he's still actually in play and chose who he passes/pops to. It's horseshit.
The first man to a breakdown should decide how the play is to unfold, not the numpty who was useless enough to get tackled with the ball and is out of the game until he retains his feet.
I know there was a time in the late 70s when this was legal. E.g. the Hika Reid try at Cardiff 1980. It was one of the best televised test tries in history up to that point and would get replayed quite a bit when I was a kid, But as this was totally illegal about a year later and from when I learnt the game, this always jarred as a weird try.
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I don't really have a problem with the Aki red, he hits hit well about the ball and make direct head contact. I think you are bang on about defenders needing to just be lower. There are many instances in a game where a player might be able to make an illegal tackle (e.g. clothesline the guy who stepped you) but just don't do it anymore because it will be an automatic yellow (possible red). I think you are right that to get that change, we need to get really hard on it.
One tricky thing is when players lead with their head. On that one, I'm not sure at all - you see this whenever someone is trying to drive over the line - pretty much every tackle makes head contact - what do we do in that situation?
@gt12 said in NH International Rugby:
One tricky thing is when players lead with their head. On that one, I'm not sure at all - you see this whenever someone is trying to drive over the line - pretty much every tackle makes head contact - what do we do in that situation?
And that was my problem with Vunipola in this instance. Duty of care goes both ways. If the player with the ball leads with their upper body almost parallel to the ground then that is a mitigating factor. You can bet players will train to run into contact that way.
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@mariner4life said in NH International Rugby:
@rapido can i ask why? and which game you watched that had so many it became an issue for me? i barely see any of them.
Any time I see a try with a pop off the ground, I inwardly groan and wonder why the game hates defenders. I've even seen a 10 metre sideways 'pop' directly to a wide player who runs in the try (in my fuzzy memory I am seeing an Otago FIjian winger in this memory). It's a 'pass' Trapper Loveridge would have been proud of. A guy has done a perfectly text book tackle and his reward is for the ball carrier to hold onto it like he's still actually in play and chose who he passes/pops to. It's horseshit.
The first man to a breakdown should decide how the play is to unfold, not the numpty who was useless enough to get tackled with the ball and is out of the game until he retains his feet.
I know there was a time in the late 70s when this was legal. E.g. the Hika Reid try at Cardiff 1980. It was one of the best televised test tries in history up to that point and would get replayed quite a bit when I was a kid, But as this was totally illegal about a year later and from when I learnt the game, this always jarred as a weird try.
@rapido if a player on teh ground has that much time with a pop pass, then the defending team has failed anyway, especially with 15 guys on the field who are good over the ball.
the only time i hate it is when someone has already cleaned past the ball, and the tackled player then pops it. That's taking the piss and should be called back.
I laughed out loud when you said the game hates defenders, when test rugby is basically world war 1 trench warfare.
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@rapido if a player on teh ground has that much time with a pop pass, then the defending team has failed anyway, especially with 15 guys on the field who are good over the ball.
the only time i hate it is when someone has already cleaned past the ball, and the tackled player then pops it. That's taking the piss and should be called back.
I laughed out loud when you said the game hates defenders, when test rugby is basically world war 1 trench warfare.
@mariner4life said in NH International Rugby:
@rapido if a player on teh ground has that much time with a pop pass, then the defending team has failed anyway, especially with 15 guys on the field who are good over the ball.
the only time i hate it is when someone has already cleaned past the ball, and the tackled player then pops it. That's taking the piss and should be called back.
I laughed out loud when you said the game hates defenders, when test rugby is basically world war 1 trench warfare.
Against the defenders:
Barely lets you defend rolling mauls, barely lets you defend close to your line, until 5 minutes a go didn't let you defend the pad protruding on your goal post, doesn't reward tacklers unless you wrap the ball, punishes the tackler if they slightly get the ball-wrap wrong. Allows sneaky fuck halfbacks to take quick taps not inline with the penalty spot. Allows shepherds.For the defenders.
Rush defence is too quick for the human eye. -
I don't really have a problem with the Aki red, he hits hit well about the ball and make direct head contact. I think you are bang on about defenders needing to just be lower. There are many instances in a game where a player might be able to make an illegal tackle (e.g. clothesline the guy who stepped you) but just don't do it anymore because it will be an automatic yellow (possible red). I think you are right that to get that change, we need to get really hard on it.
One tricky thing is when players lead with their head. On that one, I'm not sure at all - you see this whenever someone is trying to drive over the line - pretty much every tackle makes head contact - what do we do in that situation?
@gt12 said in NH International Rugby:
One tricky thing is when players lead with their head. On that one, I'm not sure at all - you see this whenever someone is trying to drive over the line - pretty much every tackle makes head contact - what do we do in that situation
Have more tries
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Plenty of talk in the English press today about the "Break Clause" in Eddie Jones's contract being invoked by the RFU.
It's the briefings to the Press which may portend doom for Jones, and maybe they're looking to axe him now to give time to both find a new coach and give new coach as much time as possible before RWC2023
Eddie Jones is facing crunch talks with the Rugby Football Union chief executive, Bill Sweeney, as part of a review into England’s poor Six Nations campaign with the head coach’s contract understood to contain a break clause. Jones is the world’s highest-paid rugby union coach and agreed an extension through to the 2023 World Cup last April. It is believed, however, that it would not necessarily be prohibitively expensive for the RFU to part ways with Jones due to a clause in his contract, similar to that which existed in his previous deal. In that instance the clause was performance related, dependent on how England fared at the 2019 World Cup. -
surely Wales have this in the bag. The Scots aren't shit enough to give up the kind of kicking that France needs to give them to win it.
The Eddie Jones cycle is in full effect, he's an incredible coach, but something about his methods always results in this, where the team and the results fall away, and markedly.
Italy are the best illustration that access to elite competitions does not equate to improved performance. They are getting worse every year. They have fallen a mile behind 5th.
@mariner4life said in NH International Rugby:
The Eddie Jones cycle is in full effect, he's an incredible coach, but something about his methods always results in this, where the team and the results fall away, and markedly.
Although, this is the second time around for him and England.
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Speaking of second time around, rumours are circulating that Woodward fancies another tilt at the job. I so hope that happens.
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
Speaking of second time around, rumours are circulating that Woodward fancies another tilt at the job. I so hope that happens.
Lol. Yeah no worries Clive, rugby has barely changed in the past 15 years...
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@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
Speaking of second time around, rumours are circulating that Woodward fancies another tilt at the job. I so hope that happens.
Lol. Yeah no worries Clive, rugby has barely changed in the past 15 years...
@mariner4life said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
Speaking of second time around, rumours are circulating that Woodward fancies another tilt at the job. I so hope that happens.
Lol. Yeah no worries Clive, rugby has barely changed in the past 15 years...
This doesn't sound like reality to me. It sounds like somebody starting this up on the fact that Woodward was clearly annoyed with the direction the England team is going in as part of his punditry on the weekend.
Which I might add, is the first time I thought Woodward was actually making a good go of punditry.
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@mariner4life said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
Speaking of second time around, rumours are circulating that Woodward fancies another tilt at the job. I so hope that happens.
Lol. Yeah no worries Clive, rugby has barely changed in the past 15 years...
This doesn't sound like reality to me. It sounds like somebody starting this up on the fact that Woodward was clearly annoyed with the direction the England team is going in as part of his punditry on the weekend.
Which I might add, is the first time I thought Woodward was actually making a good go of punditry.
@majorrage said in NH International Rugby:
@mariner4life said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
Speaking of second time around, rumours are circulating that Woodward fancies another tilt at the job. I so hope that happens.
Lol. Yeah no worries Clive, rugby has barely changed in the past 15 years...
This doesn't sound like reality to me. It sounds like somebody starting this up on the fact that Woodward was clearly annoyed with the direction the England team is going in as part of his punditry on the weekend.
Which I might add, is the first time I thought Woodward was actually making a good go of punditry.
Well he actually applied for the France job in 2016, so maybe he still has coaching ambitions?
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@bones said in NH International Rugby:
@crucial I'll rephrase, clearly held up.
Nup.
Looked like it was probably held up.
@booboo said in NH International Rugby:
@bones said in NH International Rugby:
@crucial I'll rephrase, clearly held up.
Nup.
Looked like it was probably held up.
To you, boomer.
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@booboo said in NH International Rugby:
@bones said in NH International Rugby:
@crucial I'll rephrase, clearly held up.
Nup.
Looked like it was probably held up.
To you, boomer.
@bones said in NH International Rugby:
@booboo said in NH International Rugby:
@bones said in NH International Rugby:
@crucial I'll rephrase, clearly held up.
Nup.
Looked like it was probably held up.
To you, boomer.
Am not a boomer: I miss by 4 years.
And sorry your Engrish wooshes me.
Ploise exploin?
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@bones said in NH International Rugby:
@booboo said in NH International Rugby:
@bones said in NH International Rugby:
@crucial I'll rephrase, clearly held up.
Nup.
Looked like it was probably held up.
To you, boomer.
Am not a boomer: I miss by 4 years.
And sorry your Engrish wooshes me.
Ploise exploin?
