England v South Africa
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If that was a certain AB with no.12 on his jersey do you think the same decision by the ref would have been made? No fuckin' chance!
As @MiketheSnow said, SA could have had 2 penalties in that last passage of play.
I watched a full replay with an eye on England. I think we'll do them in the scrum if they start Hepburn again. Worst game I've seen Daly play at international level.
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If that was a certain AB with no.12 on his jersey do you think the same decision by the ref would have been made? No fuckin' chance!
As @MiketheSnow said, SA could have had 2 penalties in that last passage of play.
I watched a full replay with an eye on England. I think we'll do them in the scrum if they start Hepburn again. Worst game I've seen Daly play at international level.
@bovidae said in England v South Africa:
If that was a certain AB with no.12 on his jersey do you think the same decision by the ref would have been made? No fuckin' chance!
Going on previous history, I'm pretty sure SBW will test this theory next Sunday (if he makes the 23)
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The more you watch the game up in the NH the more you realise there are two sets of rules - one for the NH nad one for the SH (oh and a spare one for the Top 14) really that was a pure brain fart by both Farrell and Gardner. Farrell has form for this shit, coming from a league background.
Still can't understand why England can't play with any creativity or spark, when they get the ball they don't seem to know what to do with it. And space is the great unknown to them.
Reckon iif we can roll through the gears, are patient, minimise errors without giving away kickable penalties , and dictate the pace of the game we should be ok. Speeding the game up will be our biggest weapon, and will create space. -
The more you watch the game up in the NH the more you realise there are two sets of rules - one for the NH nad one for the SH (oh and a spare one for the Top 14) really that was a pure brain fart by both Farrell and Gardner. Farrell has form for this shit, coming from a league background.
Still can't understand why England can't play with any creativity or spark, when they get the ball they don't seem to know what to do with it. And space is the great unknown to them.
Reckon iif we can roll through the gears, are patient, minimise errors without giving away kickable penalties , and dictate the pace of the game we should be ok. Speeding the game up will be our biggest weapon, and will create space.@shadowtrooper you'd think Gardner would go with his instincts which are the SH rules/interpretations I expect, but as someone said above, he is likely gun shy after being thrown under the bus in the French series.
I think it warrants and off-field YC at least, in Super rugby that would have attracted a YC, and an over judicious ref, or TMO a RC.
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Well i must be alone here because IMO the game is dead if that tackle is a penalty let alone yellow let alone fucking red.
Sure he deserved red and a punch in the face for his reaction afterwards but fuck me if those tackles get you sent off then there are going to be cards at ever ruck and every second phase of play.
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Well i must be alone here because IMO the game is dead if that tackle is a penalty let alone yellow let alone fucking red.
Sure he deserved red and a punch in the face for his reaction afterwards but fuck me if those tackles get you sent off then there are going to be cards at ever ruck and every second phase of play.
@pukunui I agree, it doesnt really warrant it, but have you not been watching rugby the last couple of years and how those kinds of contacts were being dealt with?
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I don't think it was a shoulder charge. He hits with the top of the shoulder, rather than lowering it and hitting with the side/arm.
Just perhaps a penalty for not using arms, but not a card because the only person he was endangering was himself. (A real shoulder charge doesn't leave the tackler reeling.)
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I don't think it was a shoulder charge. He hits with the top of the shoulder, rather than lowering it and hitting with the side/arm.
Just perhaps a penalty for not using arms, but not a card because the only person he was endangering was himself. (A real shoulder charge doesn't leave the tackler reeling.)
@chester-draws said in England v South Africa:
I don't think it was a shoulder charge. He hits with the top of the shoulder, rather than lowering it and hitting with the side/arm.
Just perhaps a penalty for not using arms, but not a card because the only person he was endangering was himself. (A real shoulder charge doesn't leave the tackler reeling.)
Done badly by a cheap shot merchant it does, as evidenced in the aftermath and the poofball writhing on the floor.
He knew what he was doing, and he knew what he had done. Hence the gamesmanship on the floor.
In the subsequent 'talking to' by Gardner the fist pump by Farrell was 50% 'thank fuck I got away with that' and 50% 'we've won'
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@nzzp yeah exactly, penalty all day, I thought Gardner was just trying to work out whether it was yellow or red. Guess that only applies to those wearing black...
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If that was a certain AB with no.12 on his jersey do you think the same decision by the ref would have been made? No fuckin' chance!
As @MiketheSnow said, SA could have had 2 penalties in that last passage of play.
I watched a full replay with an eye on England. I think we'll do them in the scrum if they start Hepburn again. Worst game I've seen Daly play at international level.
@bovidae yeah Daly played very oddly. He saved SA's skin a few times. Every time he got the ball, the blinkers went on and he didn't even attempt to look for support let alone try and find it. Space out wide, cut back in and die with the ball.
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I don't understand the fuss about the tackle, so he led with the shoulder, but trying to make a dominant tackle you have to lead with the shoulder otherwise you'll break you arm. No way is it a shoulder charge. Seemingly the problem is not the tackle, but how messed up refereeing has become. Nowadays hard tackle on the chest is yellow cards
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I don't understand the fuss about the tackle, so he led with the shoulder, but trying to make a dominant tackle you have to lead with the shoulder otherwise you'll break you arm. No way is it a shoulder charge. Seemingly the problem is not the tackle, but how messed up refereeing has become. Nowadays hard tackle on the chest is yellow cards
@rebound Even if you don't judge it wasn't a shoulder charge and that no contact was made with the opponent's head, it was clearly a high tackle. Penalty at the least. Under World Rugby's directives, right or wrongly, it should have been a straight red card.
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@bovidae yeah Daly played very oddly. He saved SA's skin a few times. Every time he got the ball, the blinkers went on and he didn't even attempt to look for support let alone try and find it. Space out wide, cut back in and die with the ball.
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I've watched that gif a few times, i don't reckon it's even high. The only reason his chin hits the shoulder is because his head snaps forward when he gets smashed. Great hit, play on, fuck off World Rugby.
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I've watched that gif a few times, i don't reckon it's even high. The only reason his chin hits the shoulder is because his head snaps forward when he gets smashed. Great hit, play on, fuck off World Rugby.
@mariner4life said in England v South Africa:
I've watched that gif a few times, i don't reckon it's even high. The only reason his chin hits the shoulder is because his head snaps forward when he gets smashed. Great hit, play on, fuck off World Rugby.
No debate that it was good offensuve defence. However by the letter of the law currently, which is what is being debated here, that was a no arms tackle, clearly above the nipple line which at least deserved a penalty.
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I don't understand the fuss about the tackle, so he led with the shoulder, but trying to make a dominant tackle you have to lead with the shoulder otherwise you'll break you arm. No way is it a shoulder charge. Seemingly the problem is not the tackle, but how messed up refereeing has become. Nowadays hard tackle on the chest is yellow cards
@rebound said in England v South Africa:
I don't understand the fuss about the tackle, so he led with the shoulder, but trying to make a dominant tackle you have to lead with the shoulder otherwise you'll break you arm. No way is it a shoulder charge. Seemingly the problem is not the tackle, but how messed up refereeing has become. Nowadays hard tackle on the chest is yellow cards
Nah.
Forget talk of a YC. The bit Gardner bottled was the penalty call.
By letter of the law the ref was correct because he determined that OF attempted to grasp the ball carrier.
However if you go slightly beyond the letter of the law to the reason for the law it is simply a penalisable offence unless he caused great danger to the ball carrier's wellbeing.
This foul play law is for safety reasons and is there to stop shoulder charges in a tackle. The 'grasp' is intended to be from the arm/shoulder making contact, not the other arm (otherwise SBW could do a huge shoulder smash with his right while bringing his left arm around the back).
Of course the shoulder is first point of impact in many tackles but (try this at home), bring your left hand down hard on your right shoulder with your right arm by your side (pretty solid) then do the same but as you make contact, lift the right arm. Instantly some of the force is transferred and 'softened'. Not important when hitting soft tissue but very important when hitting on bone. (remember that regulations do not allow chest padding)
The reason I have explained it this way is because that is how it is explained to players, coaches and refs in SmartRugby training.
OF reckons he was always going for a textbook tackle but the contact came too fast and he couldn't get his arm up quickly enough. Well sorry but that is another reason why it should be a penalty. An illegal act was done to stop progress because you couldn't get in position (albeit split second) to do it legally. Just like an offside where you haven't quite got back behind the hindmost before coming forward.
Forget all talk of softness or 'what's the game coming to'. SA were on attack. OF decided he needed to go hard and 'high' to stop them, got his timing out and hit with the shoulder well before wrapping that arm. Easy penalty, no drama. Would have been called without controversy in the 10th minute.
IF that had slid up a touch more and made hard contact with the head it would have been a RC and minimum 6 weeks off. How does it go from being OK to that in the space of an inch? Surely 'man that was close' means there was enough danger that a penalty warning was warranted? Again the point/time/consequence in the match played a big part and it shouldn't have.
Gardner bottled it.
