Ireland vs All Blacks (2018)
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@junior yeah, it's all well and good to attribute "wins" to one or the other in certain areas, but you'd have to factor in the degree of the "win" and it's relevance, as well as the effect on the team.
Smith is so much better at passing it's not funny. He's a better kicker too, it's not even. The half back isn't there to be physical for the most part, so how relevant is that?
@bones This is a good point. I mean, there is a really good argument that TJP has better all round rugby skills than Smith - just look at this try-scoring record!
However, Smith is so far above TJP in the core technical skills for the position they both play that it's not even debatable that Smith is a better halfback. The same argument holds true for any debate on the relative merits of Marshall and Smith (although, TBF, it's much more arguable that Marshall's general rugby skills make him a better halfback).
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Perhaps distribution versus physicality is the core here?
Current rules and playing conditions really tend towards a fast distribution, halfbacks are protected at the ruck.
Nugget has definitely raised the bar for passing skills from here on, that's a fine feat
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@bones yeah, I was thinking of that too. Hard to remember Marshall and we weren't so stats savvy.
Was also wondering at support lines and backing up.
Marsh a bit more busy at the back clearing?
Look, different times, different rules, different lots of things.
Aaron Smith has been fucking fantastic. Functioned marvelously in these systems and set ups, but since the toilet especially since toilet, he's waned slightly. Getting fucked over by fucking Samwise DeClerk and not being able to help when our forwards are getting a bit of physical stick reaaly got on my goat this year.
I hated Marsh when he wasnt in black. I totally hated his pass. Mocked it daily and hate it now, why couldn't he learn to speed it up like Bachop - then we'd be able unleash those wingers and fullback? It was shit
But like Junior rightfully said, he played to win and used his body and aggression on fluffybunnies.
Marshall would do a far better job today than Smith would back then, whatever that means.
So basically don't dine out too much on Marshall talking absolute nonsense today, he was a fucken good All Black. Slimly better than a somewhat limited, though brilliant Aaron Smith, I reckon
@siam said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@bones yeah, I was thinking of that too. Hard to remember Marshall and we weren't so stats savvy.
Was also wondering at support lines and backing up.
Marsh a bit more busy at the back clearing?
Look, different times, different rules, different lots of things.
Aaron Smith has been fucking fantastic. Functioned marvelously in these systems and set ups, but since the toilet especially since toilet, he's waned slightly. Getting fucked over by fucking Samwise DeClerk and not being able to help when our forwards are getting a bit of physical stick reaaly got on my goat this year.
I hated Marsh when he wasnt in black. I totally hated his pass. Mocked it daily and hate it now, why couldn't he learn to speed it up like Bachop - then we'd be able unleash those wingers and fullback? It was shit
But like Junior rightfully said, he played to win and used his body and aggression on fluffybunnies.
Marshall would do a far better job today than Smith would back then, whatever that means.
So basically don't dine out too much on Marshall talking absolute nonsense today, he was a fucken good All Black. Slimly better than a somewhat limited, though brilliant Aaron Smith, I reckon
That bit is just plain wrong. Imagine the space for Smith back then, I'm quite sure he and those around him would've scored way more tries than Marshall. Notice how many more tries our 8, 10 score than those that were with Marshall? Marshall today would be awful, and would be nowhere near halfback. He'd be the non passing centre we laugh about.
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@bones yeah, I was thinking of that too. Hard to remember Marshall and we weren't so stats savvy.
Was also wondering at support lines and backing up.
Marsh a bit more busy at the back clearing?
Look, different times, different rules, different lots of things.
Aaron Smith has been fucking fantastic. Functioned marvelously in these systems and set ups, but since the toilet especially since toilet, he's waned slightly. Getting fucked over by fucking Samwise DeClerk and not being able to help when our forwards are getting a bit of physical stick reaaly got on my goat this year.
I hated Marsh when he wasnt in black. I totally hated his pass. Mocked it daily and hate it now, why couldn't he learn to speed it up like Bachop - then we'd be able unleash those wingers and fullback? It was shit
But like Junior rightfully said, he played to win and used his body and aggression on fluffybunnies.
Marshall would do a far better job today than Smith would back then, whatever that means.
So basically don't dine out too much on Marshall talking absolute nonsense today, he was a fucken good All Black. Slimly better than a somewhat limited, though brilliant Aaron Smith, I reckon
@siam said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Marshall would do a far better job today than Smith would back then, whatever that means.
So basically don't dine out too much on Marshall talking absolute nonsense today, he was a fucken good All Black. Slimly better than a somewhat limited, though brilliant Aaron Smith, I reckonReally? I think our game has moved on. Look at almost all of our best halfbacks and they're predominantly passers - Smith, TTT, Drummond, Webber etc. The Marshall-style halfbacks are largely out of the frame because they don't fit into the system at all - Pulu, Hall to name a couple. TJP is only there because of his prolific try-scoring and as insurance when we need to move away from our preferred system.
I'm also not sure that Smith would have been as bad as you think during Marshy's era. I would have thought that our frail first-fives and powerhouse wings and fullbacks would have absolutely loved playing with the extra time and space his quicker and more accurate pass would give. That's also without mentioning that a quick and accurate pass could have made up for our weak forward efforts to some extent.
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@siam said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@bones yeah, I was thinking of that too. Hard to remember Marshall and we weren't so stats savvy.
Was also wondering at support lines and backing up.
Marsh a bit more busy at the back clearing?
Look, different times, different rules, different lots of things.
Aaron Smith has been fucking fantastic. Functioned marvelously in these systems and set ups, but since the toilet especially since toilet, he's waned slightly. Getting fucked over by fucking Samwise DeClerk and not being able to help when our forwards are getting a bit of physical stick reaaly got on my goat this year.
I hated Marsh when he wasnt in black. I totally hated his pass. Mocked it daily and hate it now, why couldn't he learn to speed it up like Bachop - then we'd be able unleash those wingers and fullback? It was shit
But like Junior rightfully said, he played to win and used his body and aggression on fluffybunnies.
Marshall would do a far better job today than Smith would back then, whatever that means.
So basically don't dine out too much on Marshall talking absolute nonsense today, he was a fucken good All Black. Slimly better than a somewhat limited, though brilliant Aaron Smith, I reckon
That bit is just plain wrong. Imagine the space for Smith back then, I'm quite sure he and those around him would've scored way more tries than Marshall. Notice how many more tries our 8, 10 score than those that were with Marshall? Marshall today would be awful, and would be nowhere near halfback. He'd be the non passing centre we laugh about.
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I wouldn’t want to be a 10 receiving Megs passes in this era. The chances of surviving a game without broken ribs would be low.
@crucial said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
I wouldn’t want to be a 10 receiving Megs passes in this era. The chances of surviving a game without broken ribs would be low.
You wouldn't want to be something you have no chance of being?
Weird -
@crucial said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
I wouldn’t want to be a 10 receiving Megs passes in this era. The chances of surviving a game without broken ribs would be low.
You wouldn't want to be something you have no chance of being?
Weird@siam said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@crucial said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
I wouldn’t want to be a 10 receiving Megs passes in this era. The chances of surviving a game without broken ribs would be low.
You wouldn't want to be something you have no chance of being?
WeirdYou obviously haven't been keeping up on the morality thread or whichever one it is.
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@siam said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Marshall would do a far better job today than Smith would back then, whatever that means.
So basically don't dine out too much on Marshall talking absolute nonsense today, he was a fucken good All Black. Slimly better than a somewhat limited, though brilliant Aaron Smith, I reckonReally? I think our game has moved on. Look at almost all of our best halfbacks and they're predominantly passers - Smith, TTT, Drummond, Webber etc. The Marshall-style halfbacks are largely out of the frame because they don't fit into the system at all - Pulu, Hall to name a couple. TJP is only there because of his prolific try-scoring and as insurance when we need to move away from our preferred system.
I'm also not sure that Smith would have been as bad as you think during Marshy's era. I would have thought that our frail first-fives and powerhouse wings and fullbacks would have absolutely loved playing with the extra time and space his quicker and more accurate pass would give. That's also without mentioning that a quick and accurate pass could have made up for our weak forward efforts to some extent.
@junior said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@siam said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Marshall would do a far better job today than Smith would back then, whatever that means.
So basically don't dine out too much on Marshall talking absolute nonsense today, he was a fucken good All Black. Slimly better than a somewhat limited, though brilliant Aaron Smith, I reckonReally? I think our game has moved on. Look at almost all of our best halfbacks and they're predominantly passers - Smith, TTT, Drummond, Webber etc. The Marshall-style halfbacks are largely out of the frame because they don't fit into the system at all - Pulu, Hall to name a couple. TJP is only there because of his prolific try-scoring and as insurance when we need to move away from our preferred system.
Yeah, TJP is pretty clearly in better form than Smith right now but Smith continues to be selected as his passing game is light years ahead. No doubt it is a massive part of the way the ABs play.
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Smith is a far better halfback than Marshall was. The quality of service is night and day. Very different styles of course and Marshall had a fine career. I think Marshall suited his era more than he would the current era - Pulu reminds me of a typical halfback from Marshall's time playing in the current day (obviously Marshall was far superior than Pulu is but just in terms of styles).
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Smith is a far better halfback than Marshall was. The quality of service is night and day. Very different styles of course and Marshall had a fine career. I think Marshall suited his era more than he would the current era - Pulu reminds me of a typical halfback from Marshall's time playing in the current day (obviously Marshall was far superior than Pulu is but just in terms of styles).
@kiwimurph I think you mean Pulu is in the Marshall mould.
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Smith is also a gun organiser. He runs the attack half the time, and doesn't mind chewing out his forwards
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@mooshld said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
I say it every time we play. But "Come on Boys I need this win" My misses and all my outlaws are Irish! I can dine off this for the next year. But if we lose, I cop it nonstop.
Sadly if your in-laws are anything like many of the Irish 'fans' on the interweb you will cop it anyway. They will find a reason (like 'you played too hard').
Fern company excluded of course. We seem to attract a better quality
@crucial said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@mooshld said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
I say it every time we play. But "Come on Boys I need this win" My misses and all my outlaws are Irish! I can dine off this for the next year. But if we lose, I cop it nonstop.
Sadly if your in-laws are anything like many of the Irish 'fans' on the interweb you will cop it anyway. They will find a reason (like 'you played too hard').
Fern company excluded of course. We seem to attract a better qualityThere was a time this was true. But since they have been so successful lately they are copping the same sort of criticism. When they beat England it was injuries when they beat Wales the ref was in their favour etc....
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@bovidae said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Imagine if Meg had a decent pass?
He's not even the best AB halfback to come out of Canterbury. No, not Bruce Deans but Bachop.
Can't remember Bachop playing 80 odd games.
But facts don't matter with opinions huh?
Marshall pass wasn't the liability that Smith's defence is against a decent forward pack. Smith was poor against the books last 2 games, just not up to the physicality.
Both are great players but Marshall had less limitations, scored more tries (24 - 16), kicked better and never cried on telly
For sure Smith has a better pass but apart from recency bias, name one other attribute he is distinctly better than Marsh at?
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@crucial said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
I wouldn’t want to be a 10 receiving Megs passes in this era. The chances of surviving a game without broken ribs would be low.
You wouldn't want to be something you have no chance of being?
Weird@siam said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@crucial said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
I wouldn’t want to be a 10 receiving Megs passes in this era. The chances of surviving a game without broken ribs would be low.
You wouldn't want to be something you have no chance of being?
WeirdYou have no idea the offers I get from the selectors, but I simply refuse to come out of retirement.
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@bovidae said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Imagine if Meg had a decent pass?
He's not even the best AB halfback to come out of Canterbury. No, not Bruce Deans but Bachop.
Can't remember Bachop playing 80 odd games.
But facts don't matter with opinions huh?
Marshall pass wasn't the liability that Smith's defence is against a decent forward pack. Smith was poor against the books last 2 games, just not up to the physicality.
Both are great players but Marshall had less limitations, scored more tries (24 - 16), kicked better and never cried on telly
For sure Smith has a better pass but apart from recency bias, name one other attribute he is distinctly better than Marsh at?
@siam Best to just accept that Marshall had many good attributes as a halfback but passing wasn't one of them. That's why Bachop was always my choice in an all-time AB XV in the modern era until Smith came along.
Smith has his weaknesses too, as you mentioned, and can be bullied if his forwards aren't giving him a good platform. An abrasive halfback can get in his face, TKB used to regularly do that.
I was watching an interview with Hansen today where he mentions how much the AB gameplan has changed due to Smith's passing and speed to the rucks.
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@siam Best to just accept that Marshall had many good attributes as a halfback but passing wasn't one of them. That's why Bachop was always my choice in an all-time AB XV in the modern era until Smith came along.
Smith has his weaknesses too, as you mentioned, and can be bullied if his forwards aren't giving him a good platform. An abrasive halfback can get in his face, TKB used to regularly do that.
I was watching an interview with Hansen today where he mentions how much the AB gameplan has changed due to Smith's passing and speed to the rucks.
@bovidae based on that it'll be interesting post-smith. Is his level of passing skill a once in 5-10 year thing? Ie a Richie level phenom that we'll be pressed to match again?
In terms of passing accuracy and speed there are days of daylight to the chasing pack. Hmm who would be next fastest? TTT? Weber maybe? TJP would trail those guys imo, but has plenty of other strengths which make him clear #2.
