2019 Rugby World Cup
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@Machpants said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
An interesting point, na throw away line in the Torygraph, was that 'preparations to move the England France game were well underway' when it was realised it was going to have to be two, possibly three, games moved. That was impossible. So to make it consistent they canned them both, and have no contingency for the third. So I guess the much vaunted contingency plans talked about pre cup, if this article is correct, only really covered one game getting into trouble.
Which makes sense because I challenge anyone to develop a scenario to fix this weekend's problems.
@antipodean said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@Machpants said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
An interesting point, na throw away line in the Torygraph, was that 'preparations to move the England France game were well underway' when it was realised it was going to have to be two, possibly three, games moved. That was impossible. So to make it consistent they canned them both, and have no contingency for the third. So I guess the much vaunted contingency plans talked about pre cup, if this article is correct, only really covered one game getting into trouble.
Which makes sense because I challenge anyone to develop a scenario to fix this weekend's problems.
Play the next day? Change venue a couple of days in advance? Extend the group stages by a week to allow for reserve days (before it starts obviously)?
There are plenty of options. They chose to just cancel games instead.Now we are hearing about some sort of contingency plans despite it being written in the rules that they can’t play on a different day.
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@ACT-Crusader said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@pukunui said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@jegga said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@pukunui said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@jegga said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@pukunui said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
I wonder if people would be as ok with this situation if it was the ABs being knocked out because they didn’t get to play the last game.
Eg. We lose the first game against boks by 8.
Italy then beats Boks. Assuming everyone picks up BP wins over Canada and Namibia. Then what should have been a pretty bankable BP win against Italy to get into the Quarters is declared a draw instead.
Bye bye Two time defending champs.
This place would go into meltdown.That scenario isn’t out of the rhelms of possibly. Not like, you know, a typhoon during typhoon season. That would never happen.
Realms
Also if we were that shit I’d be stoked that our rwc ended early .
“That shit” as in we lost a pool game to the Boks? Doesn’t take much of a slide to have that happen. Plenty were predicting it.
Who was predicting it?
The whole Northern hemisphere rugby media for one. Our last game against them was a draw.
Some very short memories on this thread.Don’t think the memories are short, just questioning your theory/predictions.
Ok, one last time.
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Boks beating us in the first game. Not unthinkable. We drew this year, they also beat us last year.
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Boks then losing to Italy. Also not unthinkable but less likely. Boks lost to Japan at the last RWC, they then ran us to within a penalty in the Semi. They also lost to Italy in 2016.
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ABs vs Italy being canned for weather. Instead of being any easy BP win for ABs. Look at the stats i posted. The less likely outcome would be if the ABs missed out on a BP given their record over last 20 years.
Im not making these points to give sympathy to italy.
Im saying there would be MUCH more outrage if we were put in the position Scotland could find themselves in. It is hypocritical to say meh just because someone else is getting fucked THIS TIME.@pukunui said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
Im not making these points to give sympathy to italy.
Im saying there would be MUCH more outrage if we were put in the position Scotland could find themselves in. It is hypocritical to say meh just because someone else is getting fucked THIS TIME.
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@antipodean said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@Machpants said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
An interesting point, na throw away line in the Torygraph, was that 'preparations to move the England France game were well underway' when it was realised it was going to have to be two, possibly three, games moved. That was impossible. So to make it consistent they canned them both, and have no contingency for the third. So I guess the much vaunted contingency plans talked about pre cup, if this article is correct, only really covered one game getting into trouble.
Which makes sense because I challenge anyone to develop a scenario to fix this weekend's problems.
Play the next day? Change venue a couple of days in advance? Extend the group stages by a week to allow for reserve days (before it starts obviously)?
There are plenty of options. They chose to just cancel games instead.Now we are hearing about some sort of contingency plans despite it being written in the rules that they can’t play on a different day.
@pukunui said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@antipodean said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@Machpants said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
An interesting point, na throw away line in the Torygraph, was that 'preparations to move the England France game were well underway' when it was realised it was going to have to be two, possibly three, games moved. That was impossible. So to make it consistent they canned them both, and have no contingency for the third. So I guess the much vaunted contingency plans talked about pre cup, if this article is correct, only really covered one game getting into trouble.
Which makes sense because I challenge anyone to develop a scenario to fix this weekend's problems.
Play the next day? Change venue a couple of days in advance? Extend the group stages by a week to allow for reserve days (before it starts obviously)?
There are plenty of options. They chose to just cancel games instead.Play the next day where? Change the venues to where? How in the living fuck do you think it's possible to simply extend the RWC by a week?
They're options in your mind because you've no concept of the logistical difficulties in hosting such a tournament.
I don't want to be a dick about this, but your solutions work because they assume far too much and are oblivious to the realities. The stadia were provisionally booked for those dates when the bid was made and upon receiving the hosting, they were booked for those dates. They aren't all held open for the duration of the RWC.
Every participating nation booked accommodation and got access to training facilities years ago. Hotels are booked. Transport now is becoming congested and booked solid as people make plans to deal with the typhoon. Tomorrow most flights won't happen and the trains won't run. How are you going to get to this "other place"?
The compounding factor in all of this is it might have been possible if it was just one game. But there are too many pieces on the board to move at once.
It's like people don't think they haven't been in a war room losing sleep trying to make it work.
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And this is the Japanese, losing face is the worst fucking thing ever.
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@pukunui said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@antipodean said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@Machpants said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
An interesting point, na throw away line in the Torygraph, was that 'preparations to move the England France game were well underway' when it was realised it was going to have to be two, possibly three, games moved. That was impossible. So to make it consistent they canned them both, and have no contingency for the third. So I guess the much vaunted contingency plans talked about pre cup, if this article is correct, only really covered one game getting into trouble.
Which makes sense because I challenge anyone to develop a scenario to fix this weekend's problems.
Play the next day? Change venue a couple of days in advance? Extend the group stages by a week to allow for reserve days (before it starts obviously)?
There are plenty of options. They chose to just cancel games instead.Play the next day where? Change the venues to where? How in the living fuck do you think it's possible to simply extend the RWC by a week?
They're options in your mind because you've no concept of the logistical difficulties in hosting such a tournament.
I don't want to be a dick about this, but your solutions work because they assume far too much and are oblivious to the realities. The stadia were provisionally booked for those dates when the bid was made and upon receiving the hosting, they were booked for those dates. They aren't all held open for the duration of the RWC.
Every participating nation booked accommodation and got access to training facilities years ago. Hotels are booked. Transport now is becoming congested and booked solid as people make plans to deal with the typhoon. Tomorrow most flights won't happen and the trains won't run. How are you going to get to this "other place"?
The compounding factor in all of this is it might have been possible if it was just one game. But there are too many pieces on the board to move at once.
It's like people don't think they haven't been in a war room losing sleep trying to make it work.
@antipodean said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
It's like people don't think they haven't been in a war room losing sleep trying to make it work.
They probably haven't as they made the rules that they can't do anything quite some time ago.
Typhoon - game over.
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@Snowy said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@antipodean said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
It's like people don't think they haven't been in a war room losing sleep trying to make it work.
They probably haven't as they made the rules that they can't do anything quite some time ago.
Typhoon - game over.
It's called triage, and they most certainly thought about it way before any team set foot on Japanese soil.
With multiple matches taking place on a rolling basis I'm sure they considered the postponement and/or moving matches to a different location scenarios for single & multiple matches before taking the difficult decision to say matches would be cancelled, it would be a 0-0 draw, and both teams would get 2 points each.
And here's the important part which most people are missing
BEFORE ANY TEAM SET FOOT ON JAPANESE SOIL
All the teams agreed to this, and no-one (to my knowledge) voiced a complaint.
The Japanese organising team and World Rugby are in my opinion not cancelling matches willy nilly; not making decisions too early or too late.
They're taking the appropriate action at a time which is safe and logistically feasible.
To fans of rugby and/or the teams involved the decision will be
- Wrong
- Right
- Early
- Late
- Fair
- Unfair
- All of the above and more
Some teams will be 'screwed' by this act of nature, some will benefit.
Hopefully no one will die and there's not too much disruption for the Japanese community and economy.
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@antipodean said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@Machpants said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
An interesting point, na throw away line in the Torygraph, was that 'preparations to move the England France game were well underway' when it was realised it was going to have to be two, possibly three, games moved. That was impossible. So to make it consistent they canned them both, and have no contingency for the third. So I guess the much vaunted contingency plans talked about pre cup, if this article is correct, only really covered one game getting into trouble.
Which makes sense because I challenge anyone to develop a scenario to fix this weekend's problems.
Play the next day? Change venue a couple of days in advance? Extend the group stages by a week to allow for reserve days (before it starts obviously)?
There are plenty of options. They chose to just cancel games instead.Now we are hearing about some sort of contingency plans despite it being written in the rules that they can’t play on a different day.
@pukunui said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@antipodean said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@Machpants said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
An interesting point, na throw away line in the Torygraph, was that 'preparations to move the England France game were well underway' when it was realised it was going to have to be two, possibly three, games moved. That was impossible. So to make it consistent they canned them both, and have no contingency for the third. So I guess the much vaunted contingency plans talked about pre cup, if this article is correct, only really covered one game getting into trouble.
Which makes sense because I challenge anyone to develop a scenario to fix this weekend's problems.
Play the next day? Change venue a couple of days in advance? Extend the group stages by a week to allow for reserve days (before it starts obviously)?
There are plenty of options. They chose to just cancel games instead.Now we are hearing about some sort of contingency plans despite it being written in the rules that they can’t play on a different day.
Mate I’ve tried to post a reply without being too obnoxious and the best I can come up with is to plead with you to forward your cv to wr . Obviously for a man of your talents rebooking tv slots , organising transport in a hurricane when flights are grounded , accommodation for teams , officials and fans speaking different languages in a foreign country and being able to predict weather patterns four years out is a bloody breeze .
Unless it isn’t and this is actually the best they can come up with and the “ what if the abs were affected? “scenarios don’t really change my mind about that .I think I failed on the obnoxious part but you probably get my drift .
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@antipodean Brodie wades out and scares the bejeebus out of Hagibis!!
@taniwharugby said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@antipodean Brodie wades out and scares the bejeebus out of Hagibis!!
Brodie walks back having talked with the typhoon:
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Fuck all food at the Supermarket, so stopped at the convenie - no bread, water, milk. We are stocked up on Potato chips, wine, and instant donuts though, so let's hope that going to work.
People are taking this very seriously (not me quite so much, but would do I know). My wife tells me that we were at level three evacuation (on 4 you have to leave) for the last typhoon, so we should expect to have to get in the car and have to bolt tomorrow...
Nothing said about the game in Iwate so far, but I'll be surprised if that one happens. Still, looks like it has slowed down, so might take a while to get here.
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Fuck all food at the Supermarket, so stopped at the convenie - no bread, water, milk. We are stocked up on Potato chips, wine, and instant donuts though, so let's hope that going to work.
People are taking this very seriously (not me quite so much, but would do I know). My wife tells me that we were at level three evacuation (on 4 you have to leave) for the last typhoon, so we should expect to have to get in the car and have to bolt tomorrow...
Nothing said about the game in Iwate so far, but I'll be surprised if that one happens. Still, looks like it has slowed down, so might take a while to get here.
@gt12 said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
Fuck all food at the Supermarket, so stopped at the convenie - no bread, water, milk. We are stocked up on Potato chips, wine, and instant donuts though, so let's hope that going to work.
People are taking this very seriously (not me quite so much, but would do I know). My wife tells me that we were at level three evacuation (on 4 you have to leave) for the last typhoon, so we should expect to have to get in the car and have to bolt tomorrow...
Nothing said about the game in Iwate so far, but I'll be surprised if that one happens. Still, looks like it has slowed down, so might take a while to get here.
Stay safe
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Fuck all food at the Supermarket, so stopped at the convenie - no bread, water, milk. We are stocked up on Potato chips, wine, and instant donuts though, so let's hope that going to work.
People are taking this very seriously (not me quite so much, but would do I know). My wife tells me that we were at level three evacuation (on 4 you have to leave) for the last typhoon, so we should expect to have to get in the car and have to bolt tomorrow...
Nothing said about the game in Iwate so far, but I'll be surprised if that one happens. Still, looks like it has slowed down, so might take a while to get here.
@gt12 it's your fault Italy aren't in the finals!! So selfish...
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@pukunui said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@antipodean said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@Machpants said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
An interesting point, na throw away line in the Torygraph, was that 'preparations to move the England France game were well underway' when it was realised it was going to have to be two, possibly three, games moved. That was impossible. So to make it consistent they canned them both, and have no contingency for the third. So I guess the much vaunted contingency plans talked about pre cup, if this article is correct, only really covered one game getting into trouble.
Which makes sense because I challenge anyone to develop a scenario to fix this weekend's problems.
Play the next day? Change venue a couple of days in advance? Extend the group stages by a week to allow for reserve days (before it starts obviously)?
There are plenty of options. They chose to just cancel games instead.Play the next day where? Change the venues to where? How in the living fuck do you think it's possible to simply extend the RWC by a week?
They're options in your mind because you've no concept of the logistical difficulties in hosting such a tournament.
I don't want to be a dick about this, but your solutions work because they assume far too much and are oblivious to the realities. The stadia were provisionally booked for those dates when the bid was made and upon receiving the hosting, they were booked for those dates. They aren't all held open for the duration of the RWC.
Every participating nation booked accommodation and got access to training facilities years ago. Hotels are booked. Transport now is becoming congested and booked solid as people make plans to deal with the typhoon. Tomorrow most flights won't happen and the trains won't run. How are you going to get to this "other place"?
The compounding factor in all of this is it might have been possible if it was just one game. But there are too many pieces on the board to move at once.
It's like people don't think they haven't been in a war room losing sleep trying to make it work.
@antipodean said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@pukunui said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@antipodean said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@Machpants said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
An interesting point, na throw away line in the Torygraph, was that 'preparations to move the England France game were well underway' when it was realised it was going to have to be two, possibly three, games moved. That was impossible. So to make it consistent they canned them both, and have no contingency for the third. So I guess the much vaunted contingency plans talked about pre cup, if this article is correct, only really covered one game getting into trouble.
Which makes sense because I challenge anyone to develop a scenario to fix this weekend's problems.
Play the next day? Change venue a couple of days in advance? Extend the group stages by a week to allow for reserve days (before it starts obviously)?
There are plenty of options. They chose to just cancel games instead.Play the next day where? Change the venues to where? How in the living fuck do you think it's possible to simply extend the RWC by a week?
They're options in your mind because you've no concept of the logistical difficulties in hosting such a tournament.
I don't want to be a dick about this, but your solutions work because they assume far too much and are oblivious to the realities. The stadia were provisionally booked for those dates when the bid was made and upon receiving the hosting, they were booked for those dates. They aren't all held open for the duration of the RWC.
Every participating nation booked accommodation and got access to training facilities years ago. Hotels are booked. Transport now is becoming congested and booked solid as people make plans to deal with the typhoon. Tomorrow most flights won't happen and the trains won't run. How are you going to get to this "other place"?
The compounding factor in all of this is it might have been possible if it was just one game. But there are too many pieces on the board to move at once.
It's like people don't think they haven't been in a war room losing sleep trying to make it work.
Calm down. I simply don’t agree with you that there was no other options in the known universe. That is just bullshit. They cancelled the game 3 days out. That is plenty of time to shift people around a relatively small country on transport systems that are still operating well BEFORE the storm hits.
My point is, if you are happy to give the hosting rights to a country where there is a high probability of this happening, and it was a high probability. This isn’t unforeseen. Then you have to come up with a better plan than “just cancel the game”.
At the start of planning they should have allowed extra days and had alternate locations sorted.
10 fucking years this has been in the planning.
10 years!If they can’t work out how to overcome these issues in 10 years they should never have been given the hosting rights.
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@pukunui said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@antipodean said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@Machpants said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
An interesting point, na throw away line in the Torygraph, was that 'preparations to move the England France game were well underway' when it was realised it was going to have to be two, possibly three, games moved. That was impossible. So to make it consistent they canned them both, and have no contingency for the third. So I guess the much vaunted contingency plans talked about pre cup, if this article is correct, only really covered one game getting into trouble.
Which makes sense because I challenge anyone to develop a scenario to fix this weekend's problems.
Play the next day? Change venue a couple of days in advance? Extend the group stages by a week to allow for reserve days (before it starts obviously)?
There are plenty of options. They chose to just cancel games instead.Now we are hearing about some sort of contingency plans despite it being written in the rules that they can’t play on a different day.
Mate I’ve tried to post a reply without being too obnoxious and the best I can come up with is to plead with you to forward your cv to wr . Obviously for a man of your talents rebooking tv slots , organising transport in a hurricane when flights are grounded , accommodation for teams , officials and fans speaking different languages in a foreign country and being able to predict weather patterns four years out is a bloody breeze .
Unless it isn’t and this is actually the best they can come up with and the “ what if the abs were affected? “scenarios don’t really change my mind about that .I think I failed on the obnoxious part but you probably get my drift .
@jegga said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@pukunui said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@antipodean said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@Machpants said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
An interesting point, na throw away line in the Torygraph, was that 'preparations to move the England France game were well underway' when it was realised it was going to have to be two, possibly three, games moved. That was impossible. So to make it consistent they canned them both, and have no contingency for the third. So I guess the much vaunted contingency plans talked about pre cup, if this article is correct, only really covered one game getting into trouble.
Which makes sense because I challenge anyone to develop a scenario to fix this weekend's problems.
Play the next day? Change venue a couple of days in advance? Extend the group stages by a week to allow for reserve days (before it starts obviously)?
There are plenty of options. They chose to just cancel games instead.Now we are hearing about some sort of contingency plans despite it being written in the rules that they can’t play on a different day.
Mate I’ve tried to post a reply without being too obnoxious and the best I can come up with is to plead with you to forward your cv to wr . Obviously for a man of your talents rebooking tv slots , organising transport in a hurricane when flights are grounded , accommodation for teams , officials and fans speaking different languages in a foreign country and being able to predict weather patterns four years out is a bloody breeze .
Unless it isn’t and this is actually the best they can come up with and the “ what if the abs were affected? “scenarios don’t really change my mind about that .I think I failed on the obnoxious part but you probably get my drift .
Equally i think some of you guys would fit right in at WR. The “solution” of giving lots of red cards for poorly executed tackles and the “solution” of just canceling games probably came from the same meeting.
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@pukunui some big old sliding fantasy world doors there...in this world, we lose to the Boks and then they lose to Italy?
Then, our cancelled game v Italy is somehow bankable despite us losing to Boks and them losing to Italy?
Yea I'd be pissed if it happened to us, but by the same token what else do you do?
WR have made the call (imo 24 hours too early - what is the 'phoon looking like now?) and unfortunately it is what it is.
I am surprised the French aren't making more of it, their game was the most pivotal of the 2 canned.
@taniwharugby said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@pukunui some big old sliding fantasy world doors there...in this world, we lose to the Boks and then they lose to Italy?
Then, our cancelled game v Italy is somehow bankable despite us losing to Boks and them losing to Italy?
Yea I'd be pissed if it happened to us, but by the same token what else do you do?
WR have made the call (imo 24 hours too early - what is the 'phoon looking like now?) and unfortunately it is what it is.
I am surprised the French aren't making more of it, their game was the most pivotal of the 2 canned.
I think the French are OK with being on that side of the QF draw - I reckon they'd back themselves to beat Wales in a QF.
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Feel almost dirty typing this, but the wisest thing have read about the cancellations is this tweet from Stephen Jones of the Sunday Times:
https://twitter.com/stephenjones9/status/1182330402469335041?s=20
@sparky said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
Feel almost dirty typing this, but the wisest thing have read about the cancellations is this tweet from Stephen Jones of the Sunday Times:
https://twitter.com/stephenjones9/status/1182330402469335041?s=20
If ever there was proof that the ABs had absolutely nothing to do with the call to cancel that matches, this is it - Jones never misses an opportunity to put the boot into the ABs and so surely would have done so were there any truth to the allegation that we had any influence on this decision.
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I think @pukunui 's point is valid, although being incredibly unlikely. Italy are shit but Japan hadn't done much previously either. Then they beat the Boks, then they beat the Irish. The Italians at least should have the opportunity, as should the Scots.
How about we were unfortunate enough to have 2 games labeled as a draw due to weather and miss out? Weather that might actually be good enough to play in...
@Snowy said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
How about we were unfortunate enough to have 2 games labeled as a draw due to weather and miss out? Weather that might actually be good enough to play in...
Well, the bad news guys is you are out of the RWC. The good news is... here are your Halbergs.
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@gt12 said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
Fuck all food at the Supermarket, so stopped at the convenie - no bread, water, milk. We are stocked up on Potato chips, wine, and instant donuts though, so let's hope that going to work.
People are taking this very seriously (not me quite so much, but would do I know). My wife tells me that we were at level three evacuation (on 4 you have to leave) for the last typhoon, so we should expect to have to get in the car and have to bolt tomorrow...
Nothing said about the game in Iwate so far, but I'll be surprised if that one happens. Still, looks like it has slowed down, so might take a while to get here.
Stay safe
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@pukunui said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@antipodean said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
@Machpants said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
An interesting point, na throw away line in the Torygraph, was that 'preparations to move the England France game were well underway' when it was realised it was going to have to be two, possibly three, games moved. That was impossible. So to make it consistent they canned them both, and have no contingency for the third. So I guess the much vaunted contingency plans talked about pre cup, if this article is correct, only really covered one game getting into trouble.
Which makes sense because I challenge anyone to develop a scenario to fix this weekend's problems.
Play the next day? Change venue a couple of days in advance? Extend the group stages by a week to allow for reserve days (before it starts obviously)?
There are plenty of options. They chose to just cancel games instead.Play the next day where? Change the venues to where? How in the living fuck do you think it's possible to simply extend the RWC by a week?
They're options in your mind because you've no concept of the logistical difficulties in hosting such a tournament.
I don't want to be a dick about this, but your solutions work because they assume far too much and are oblivious to the realities. The stadia were provisionally booked for those dates when the bid was made and upon receiving the hosting, they were booked for those dates. They aren't all held open for the duration of the RWC.
Every participating nation booked accommodation and got access to training facilities years ago. Hotels are booked. Transport now is becoming congested and booked solid as people make plans to deal with the typhoon. Tomorrow most flights won't happen and the trains won't run. How are you going to get to this "other place"?
The compounding factor in all of this is it might have been possible if it was just one game. But there are too many pieces on the board to move at once.
It's like people don't think they haven't been in a war room losing sleep trying to make it work.
@antipodean said in 2019 Rugby World Cup:
It's like people don't think they haven't been in a war room losing sleep trying to make it work.
The die was cast once the tournament rules were set.
I'm not sure what contingency work they have been doing because every hypothetical contingency would have come back to "we have this very inflexible set of tournament rules - so we aren't in a position to move the day or venue of anything".
Serious contingency planning would have set out clearly what the minimum requirements were to get a game up in the event of an emergency (i.e. can it be played without a crowd, how far can teams charter/bus in on game day, does it require broadcast etc).
It sounds like they spent the first 12-24 hours spinning their wheels on this and even in the press conference the argument shifted from fan safety, to logistics, to intergrity of the competition - it wasn't entirely clear what element is the sticking point.
If they had such a plan before the tournament they would be able to sit at the press conference and say here are the five things we need to hold the game and this is the one that is the sticking point.
This is moot anyway without tournament regulations to force some flexibility.
