TRC: Pumas v All Blacks
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@gt12 said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
11:06: High tackle and is penalized – then takes no part in any of the defence against the Argie attack on our line – is also unseen in the next break out which leads to a penalty
43:21: Steals a line out jumping at 2 then stations himself on the wing – conspicuous by his absence during the next 30 seconds as we try to get going
I didn’t see one dominant tackle from Fifita – in fact, he is hardly in the middle of the field – usually spending most of his time on the wings. He had one good period were he made two good cleans, but apart from that and one good steal, he’s hardly involved.
Furthermore, he puts himself into positions to be influential – following the play more and putting himself one of the ruck – something Fifita almost never does. Furthermore, I saw three good cleans and one ruckAwesome post GT.
I've cherrypicked a couple of your interrelated points.
It's potentially tough to accuse him of not being involved if he is sticking to the pattern and being where the coaches want him.
I'm not privy to the game plan but if they want him on the wing and the ball doesn't come to him he's doing his job. Similar if he is holding his position in the defensive pattern.
The more important point is how effective is he when he is involved.
Seems that last point is the real question mark.
Yeah, I should have pointed out that he does seem to position himself according to some plan. The problem is that even then he doesn’t put in much effort - it was a bit much to add, but he tends to be wide, but not chase. To be two off the ruck, not one off the ruck. On an opposition kick, he’ll turn and run back to a position - often directly backwards. Honestly, he looks lazy - he’s in the position he should be, but he’s like a winger who never goes looking for work.
Interestingly Jacobson was a bit like that for the first minute or so - particularly staying left early. But, he then started roving more, and when he was close to the action he’d put himself in a position to influence play - either as a pillar or one off the ruck - far more likely to be involved. Even better, he made his tackles, and they were mostly dominant. Originally I thought he looked quite Readish (early plating at 6 Read), but it’s also a bit Masoeish - especially the way he made a tackle, jumped up and attached the ball like 7. That’s a skill that Paps has too, and I’m a fan. I could see him being a good Cane/Read replacement - either way I’m sure he’ll get more black shirts, but perhaps not this year because I think he’s competing with Paps while Frizzel is against Fifita and maybe Hemopo (who’s really against Barrett).
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@Chester-Draws said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
@Rembrandt said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
@Chester-Draws said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
@Rembrandt said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
Well I enjoyed that, first game of the year missing a number of stars against an Argie side who are no longer pushovers at home, it was always going to be close.
Bit rusty in execution but overall I think we did reasonably well. BB was great as too Savea and Retallick. Scrum held up well. Good to see Coles and Cane back. Jordie had a few errors but definitely worth persevering with for his boot and potential with his height. Newbies weren't over awed and gained some valuable close test match experience. Thought Gardner controlled the game beautifully, great communication with his assistants and let the game flow without missing much.
We'll be a lot better next game, Puma's are going to rue this missed opportunity for a long time, especially Sanchez missing that last penalty.
Is this one giant Poe? "did reasonably well"? "a few errors"? "potential with his height"?
What we saw was dreck -- a bad game plan, a lot of stupid penalties when not even under pressure, dropped ball, passes to no-one, some dodgy lineouts.
No, the Pumas haven't got better. You have to go back to 2006 to find the last time they were within a score of winning the game, and in our last few games against them we have won by about 20 points. We were one missed tackle in the corner away from losing that game.
I reckon 13 Super rugby final starters means something.
Yep and I also reckon we'll see Jordie the giraffe become a key AB in years to come. If only we could put money on future AB starters.
And yet when the Warratahs and Reds won, was that a sign the Wallabies were getting better?
And I'm in the group that doesn't see anything much in Jordie. Even if he does become key, he's not ready for it yet.
Jordie is actually a 12. Don't think I've mentioned that before.
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
@Chester-Draws said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
@Rembrandt said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
@Chester-Draws said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
@Rembrandt said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
Well I enjoyed that, first game of the year missing a number of stars against an Argie side who are no longer pushovers at home, it was always going to be close.
Bit rusty in execution but overall I think we did reasonably well. BB was great as too Savea and Retallick. Scrum held up well. Good to see Coles and Cane back. Jordie had a few errors but definitely worth persevering with for his boot and potential with his height. Newbies weren't over awed and gained some valuable close test match experience. Thought Gardner controlled the game beautifully, great communication with his assistants and let the game flow without missing much.
We'll be a lot better next game, Puma's are going to rue this missed opportunity for a long time, especially Sanchez missing that last penalty.
Is this one giant Poe? "did reasonably well"? "a few errors"? "potential with his height"?
What we saw was dreck -- a bad game plan, a lot of stupid penalties when not even under pressure, dropped ball, passes to no-one, some dodgy lineouts.
No, the Pumas haven't got better. You have to go back to 2006 to find the last time they were within a score of winning the game, and in our last few games against them we have won by about 20 points. We were one missed tackle in the corner away from losing that game.
I reckon 13 Super rugby final starters means something.
Yep and I also reckon we'll see Jordie the giraffe become a key AB in years to come. If only we could put money on future AB starters.
And yet when the Warratahs and Reds won, was that a sign the Wallabies were getting better?
And I'm in the group that doesn't see anything much in Jordie. Even if he does become key, he's not ready for it yet.
Jordie is actually a 12. Don't think I've mentioned that before.
Then he's fourth in line, at best, and shouldn't be anywhere near the current AB squad.
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Not sure how this wasn't a card:
@Tim said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
Not sure how this wasn't a card:
Looks bad - no arms at the very least. I'm guessing there are no better replays of the shot?
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
@Chester-Draws said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
@Rembrandt said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
@Chester-Draws said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
@Rembrandt said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
Well I enjoyed that, first game of the year missing a number of stars against an Argie side who are no longer pushovers at home, it was always going to be close.
Bit rusty in execution but overall I think we did reasonably well. BB was great as too Savea and Retallick. Scrum held up well. Good to see Coles and Cane back. Jordie had a few errors but definitely worth persevering with for his boot and potential with his height. Newbies weren't over awed and gained some valuable close test match experience. Thought Gardner controlled the game beautifully, great communication with his assistants and let the game flow without missing much.
We'll be a lot better next game, Puma's are going to rue this missed opportunity for a long time, especially Sanchez missing that last penalty.
Is this one giant Poe? "did reasonably well"? "a few errors"? "potential with his height"?
What we saw was dreck -- a bad game plan, a lot of stupid penalties when not even under pressure, dropped ball, passes to no-one, some dodgy lineouts.
No, the Pumas haven't got better. You have to go back to 2006 to find the last time they were within a score of winning the game, and in our last few games against them we have won by about 20 points. We were one missed tackle in the corner away from losing that game.
I reckon 13 Super rugby final starters means something.
Yep and I also reckon we'll see Jordie the giraffe become a key AB in years to come. If only we could put money on future AB starters.
And yet when the Warratahs and Reds won, was that a sign the Wallabies were getting better?
And I'm in the group that doesn't see anything much in Jordie. Even if he does become key, he's not ready for it yet.
Jordie is actually a 12. Don't think I've mentioned that before.
Then he's fourth in line, at best, and shouldn't be anywhere near the current AB squad.
This post is deleted! -
Held scoreless for the last 40 minutes by the 10th ranked team in the world. Played exactly the same as last year. No improvement in the last 18 months. Wayne Smith is sorely missed.
@Tim said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
Held scoreless for the last 40 minutes by the 10th ranked team in the world. Played exactly the same as last year. No improvement in the last 18 months. Wayne Smith is sorely missed.
World Rankings mean fuck all
Who even knows 1-10 team w/o from memory All I know is NZ is #1 & Wales #2I only know Wales were 2nd due to some fools blabbering about Wales moving to #1 if Los Pumas beat NZ by 15+ points which was never going to happen
Moreover you're going to look better when you play teams like Scotland Italy & France
Los Pumas will continue to improve by playing Super Rugby and in the TRC Iron sharpens Iron and ARG will be better for it in the long termSky Commentators banging on how ABs were going to step up the intensity and blow the Pumas away in last 20 mins :face_with_steam_from_nose:
2019 is a new age lads ARG finished stronger and were just as fit and physical as NZABs are the gold standard but are likely to be a much weaker side in 2020 & 2021 Josh Ioane was lucky enough to get a free Holiday to ARG & carry tackle bags & water bottles for a week
He'll be waching the RWC on TVLos Pumas will be soon ready to start beating TRC on a more regular basis
AUS are :pile_of_poo: & Boks are limited once you contain the physicality from their pack -
Anyone surprised with how many times they used Jacobsen in the lineout. I wonder if there was a direction from Shag to use him to see how he went, and he seemed to go fine to me. The man can tackle and he jumps in the lineout, I wonder if its worth giving him more time at 6.
@chimoaus said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
Anyone surprised with how many times they used Jacobsen in the lineout. I wonder if there was a direction from Shag to use him to see how he went, and he seemed to go fine to me. The man can tackle and he jumps in the lineout, I wonder if its worth giving him more time at 6.
Jacobson has always been a secure lineout option for Waikato, Chiefs, etc.
9 tackles (0 misses) in 23 minutes is impressive compared to the rest of the forwards relative to time on the field.
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@Tim said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
Not sure how this wasn't a card:
Looks bad - no arms at the very least. I'm guessing there are no better replays of the shot?
This post is deleted! -
Noguera Paz is out of favour atm
AFAIK he was 3rd choice LH prop at Bath Rugby last year behind Obano + Van Rooyun
Not played for Pumas since Nov 2017
@Jaguares4real said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
Noguera Paz is out of favour atm
AFAIK he was 3rd choice LH prop at Bath Rugby last year behind Obano + Van Rooyun
Not played for Pumas since Nov 2017
You might find this interesting: http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2018/09/19/argentinas-ongoing-search-for-loose-head-prop/
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Watched on run (lots of fast forward).
Fairly disorganised AB display.
Thought Ritchie M and Crusaders handled rush defence much better than BB/NL. Don't think Ngani adds much as a second pair of eyes to Beaudy.
Loved BBBR at the end laying down the law and shoving AB pups into place.
Expect six changes in AB pack for Boks.
Assuming RC is injured I'd LIKE to see ALB at 12.
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@Jaguares4real said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
Noguera Paz is out of favour atm
AFAIK he was 3rd choice LH prop at Bath Rugby last year behind Obano + Van Rooyun
Not played for Pumas since Nov 2017
You might find this interesting: http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2018/09/19/argentinas-ongoing-search-for-loose-head-prop/
@pakman said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
@Jaguares4real said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
Noguera Paz is out of favour atm
AFAIK he was 3rd choice LH prop at Bath Rugby last year behind Obano + Van Rooyun
Not played for Pumas since Nov 2017
You might find this interesting: http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2018/09/19/argentinas-ongoing-search-for-loose-head-prop/
Good article :thumbs_up_light_skin_tone:
Paul Tait is a good resource for all things Lo Pumas
The constant shuffling of Tetaz Chappero & Noguero Paz from LH to TH prop has been awful
Hopefully with emergence of Mayco Vivas he might be the long term solution Just turned 21 and completed his 1st season of Super Rugby
Medrano as well is only 23 so they're very young for props Might take until 2023 for them to mature and wise up to prop position
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Assuming Squire is not available for the next couple of weeks, do they try out someone like Papalii or go with the safer option of Frizell/Barrett? They already know what Frizell and Barrett can do, I think it would be a good opportunity to give Paps a go and see if he has what it takes at six.
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The problem at six: Fifita’s last chance?
Vaea Fifita was perhaps lucky to get the first opportunity in the 6 jersey, as Frizell’s injury saw him left at home. Overwhelmingly, TSF posters appear pretty disappointed with his effort against Argentina, in the All Blacks lucky win in Buenos Aires overnight.
They are right.
After the first game of the season, it seems that the six question remains unanswered. He seems to remain a coach favorite, but this should be his last test this year.
The Stats
Rugbypass stats indicate a mixed effort in comparison to the other loose forwards out there. In 57 minutes, he made 6 tackles, missed 1, and gained one turnover. With the ball, he ran 5 times for 7 metres, beating one defender. In the line out, he won three off our throws, and stole one. He also conceded one turnover and two penalties. Overall, he was equally highest with Retallick as a line out target, but may have lost ground to key competitors in some key areas (NB: ESPN stats have him only making one tackle and missing one).
To start, by comparison his opposite number Matera ran for 40 metres off 12 carries, with one offload and one defender beaten, while making 9 tackles with one miss, one line out won, and the same number of penalties conceded (NB: ESPN stats have him making nine tackles and missing four).
Against the starting AB loosies – who it should be mentioned both played 80 - Fifita also looks to be less involved: Ardie took 31 metres from 8 runs, beat one defender, gained one turnover, and did not concede any turnovers nor penalties while making 11 tackles with no misses. He was, admittedly, probably our best player out there though. The other starter, Sam Cane, had one terrible dropped ball (and a total of three turnovers conceded), but was very involved with 17 tackles (leading the team), two misses, and two penalties conceded. Cane had one offload and ran 6 times for 31 metres (NB: ESPN stats have Ardie making 24 metres off 9 runs and Cane making 24 off 6).
Perhaps even worse, key competitors (Hemopo, Jacobson) came on and each played relatively well: In 23 minutes, Hemopo had 3 metres off one carry, with one offload, five tackles and no misses. In the same amount of time, Jacobson got quite stuck in on defence – making 8 tackles with no misses, while winning two line outs. He conceded one turnover but no penalties, and had no running metres. Noticeably, Jacobson made some pretty hard (NB: ESPN stats have Hemopo making 3 tackles, with Jacobson at 9 tackles).
So, putting things together, what do the numbers indicate? Firstly, to me, I wonder what his role is? Looking at the numbers, he appears to be doing the Read role - he is used as the primary line out option, is not the main ball runner (Ardie), and is not the primary tackler (Cane). Is he the main cleaner and player making high impact tackles? Jacobson jumped out with his work there after coming on, and Hemopo has some runs in the bank on that front too. So, I focused primarily on his off the ball duties in my re-watch. To what extent is Fifita involved? After being replaced, to what extent was Jacobson involved?
The re-watch
Fifita
2:32: Wins lineout jumping at four
3:08: Stays out on the left and passes to Barrett then gets cleaned out trying to join the ruck – poor clean as Smith gets put under pressure
4:01: Third player to the ruck as Abs head back for a kick
4:26: Second ineffective tackler, doesn’t roll, and gets penalized
7:17: Attacks their lineout
11:06: High tackle and is penalized – then takes no part in any of the defence against the Argie attack on our line – is also unseen in the next break out which leads to a penalty
15:10: Wins the lineout at four
16:19: Good lift for BBBR as we win the line out and attack
16:30: Sort of attends one breakdown then is the support of Ardie who takes about 8 metres as we attack their line.
16:52: Cleans a breakdown, then gets up and receives the ball. Is tackled immediately for no gain. As we were under advantage, Gardner awards the penalty – Smith taps and Laumape goes in.
19:30: Joins maul against Argentina throw
21:10: Good clean after Laumape’s break
21:26: Inspects a ruck
21:40: Good clean
21:47: Gets up and puts in another good clean
24:52: Part of the maul defence (we concede a penalty)
27:08: Third ineffective tackler (kind of hits, kind of misses)
28:05: Joins/inspects ruck (4th man there)
29:35: Wins lineout and we set a maul
30:35: Joins our maul towards their line, we win a penalty
32:11: Wins the lineout and we maul
33:03: Fifita jumps at the lineout but can’t get two hands on it
33:50: Receives a pass from Barrett and makes about 1 metre
34:19: Receives the second pass from BBBR and drops it
37:33 Gets ball in our 22 and gets about 4-5 metres
40:15: Tries to win the ball but misses, then inspects the ruck. Ball goes out and that’s the half
40:48: Joins maul in defence
41:41: Lifts BBBR at the lineout
43:21: Steals a line out jumping at 2 then stations himself on the wing – conspicuous by his absence during the next 30 seconds as we try to get going
45:49: Second or third tackler/first ruck cleaner as Argentina attack our line – gives away the penalty for not rolling
46:01: Makes initial tackle but doesn’t take the player to the ground – Creevy offloads, they kick, and score
48:45: Joins maul defence (BBBR gets penalized)
50:58: Catch/pass
51:09: Rushes out of the line and is beaten
51:50: Is unlucky as BB can’t find him after his break
52:41 Is lucky not to get penalized for joining a ruck from an offside position (Coles about to be penalized)
53:44: Lifts Patty and then defends against the Argie maul
55:00: Terrible clean and we are lucky to not get turned over
55:34: Second (ineffective tackler)
56:00: Gets 4 metres with the ball - might have beaten one man
Is taken off at 57:20I didn’t see one dominant tackle from Fifita – in fact, he is hardly in the middle of the field – usually spending most of his time on the wings. He had one good period were he made two good cleans, but apart from that and one good steal, he’s hardly involved.
Jacobson
Looks a bit lost for the first few minutes and doesn’t really get involved until
60:04: Makes a good tackle on Labanini
61:56: Tracks across and cleans
62:41: Wins the line out
63:30: Is unlucky as he is outside Cane when he drops a sitter cold with no one in front of him
66:34: Dominant tackle in midfield
66:46: Second effective tackler
67:40: Second (ineffective) tackler / ruck joiner
67:53: Third (ineffective) tackler /ruck attacker
68:08: Excellent ruck clean to assist Coltman and we almost win the turnover
68:28: Strong tackle on man off the ruck [You almost never see Fifita defending here]
70:39: Ankle tackle and doesn’t get shaken off
71:01: Makes a tackle as the Argie player loses the ball
72:40: Third man to attend the breakdown (behind Cane and Reece)
73:01: Good clean to secure ball
74:30: Accurate clean after following BFA
76:47: Wins the line out at the back, then is strong at wrestling he attacking defenders in the following maul
78:15: Ankle tackle
78:37: Stopping tackle, then straight up again and attacks the ball at the next ruck – he’s unlucky because he would win it too, but as the Argies are under advantage, Angus goes back to the penaltyI see eight or maybe nine tackles in that short period of time, including three of four very effective tackles. Furthermore, he puts himself into positions to be influential – following the play more and putting himself one of the ruck – something Fifita almost never does. Furthermore, I saw three good cleans and one ruck attack, plus he was a pretty effective line out option.
What does it mean?
Firstly, rugbypass has some of the friendliest stats out – Fifita seemed to get credit for a lot of poor tackle assists. ESPN’s seem much more on the money (I’ve added them as a result).
Based on what I saw, I can’t how Fifita can continue to be selected. Jacobson has the Read look about him – he’s involved and he’s accurate. I’d be taking a much longer look at him and Papalii – both of them have versatility, toughness, and can contribute around the field. Frizell also deserves a chance.Overal, if this was Fifita’s WC try out, he should have just played his last test for this year.
@gt12 Great write-up; also agree with @booboo 's comment. Just one comment from me about the stats used. I have compared the stats provided by Rugbypass, ESPN, SANZAAR and NZH (these come from OPTA), and Rugbypass is the clear outlier. I don't recommend using them. Overall, the SANZAAR stats and NZH/OPTA stats generally correspond with each other, and - with a few exceptions - ESPN, too. So I'd recommend the SANZAAR stats, because they're the most easily accessible.
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After reading the thread, I’m warming to the thought of giving ardie, Sam and read a go, and I’m not bothered by who wears what numbers,
Without that specialist dominant incumbent 6 we have become accustomed to, think there is a good argument for just getting your best players out on the park
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@gt12 Great write-up; also agree with @booboo 's comment. Just one comment from me about the stats used. I have compared the stats provided by Rugbypass, ESPN, SANZAAR and NZH (these come from OPTA), and Rugbypass is the clear outlier. I don't recommend using them. Overall, the SANZAAR stats and NZH/OPTA stats generally correspond with each other, and - with a few exceptions - ESPN, too. So I'd recommend the SANZAAR stats, because they're the most easily accessible.
Yep, for sure I'll avoid the rugbypass stats in my future re-watch posts - sadly, the UI is really nice on rugbypass, just the quality of the stats is poor.
I'll take recommendations of players to watch too for future re-watch posts btw - this week I wasn't sure whether to focus on Jordie or Fifita, but I figured 6 is a bit more important than 11, given that it should have R. Ioane in it, unless all sorts of shit happens.
I was also tempted to talk about Coltman, but since the story was pretty easy (great around the field, still can't f%&king throw) I avoided it.
Patty T was another I should have watched for - I thought he was significantly better than Fifita, but that's a low bar - and he was replaced by Hemopo, indicating that they are still considering the two specialists, and a one or two in-betweeners breakdown. Honestly, apart from one good dominant tackle, I don't think that Pat T did himself any favors either - about 3 tackles with one miss in 57 minutes versus Hemopo's 3 and no misses in 23.
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Playing Fifita was a waste of 60 minutes that could have been used to assess someone else. I can’t believe so close to a RWC that the selectors are still giving out trial games. We have SA, Australia and Tonga then it’s RWC. Not to mention the midfield.
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Playing Fifita was a waste of 60 minutes that could have been used to assess someone else. I can’t believe so close to a RWC that the selectors are still giving out trial games. We have SA, Australia and Tonga then it’s RWC. Not to mention the midfield.
@Billy-Tell My guess is Scott Barrett when fit will be the first-choice blindside. Fifita and Hemopo are in competition for the bench lock/blindside role.
Read, Cane and Savea are certain to go to Japan. One or two of Jacobson or Papali'i or Frizzell or Todd will join them.
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@Tim said in TRC: Pumas v All Blacks:
Not sure how this wasn't a card:
Looks bad - no arms at the very least. I'm guessing there are no better replays of the shot?
It was a cardable offense, right in front of the ref. But it was also a foolish high-risk (potentially hospital) pass. I hate it when we shovel a pass along to a player in a worse position rather than take contact or take other options that don’t risk the player receiving the pass
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Also re rugbypass. Their journalists aren't tho most clued in (though NZH and stuff aren't too much better). They posted an article about BBBR and there was some wrong stuff in there and and I pointed it out, it was something about how it was his 100th game for the Chiefs when it wasn't because they though he played against the BIL for the Chiefs. The reply from them was pissed off and I said check the team list. They then deleted the article and edited it
. Also I find they're clickbaity as all fuck. -
This one is pretty good tho
