The future of NZ Rugby
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@Nepia said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
TBH, and apologies in advance at @Tim but I highly doubt that a Super team based in Harbour from the start would have made any difference to how things are going now. Auckland can't even run one competent team at the moment let alone two.
It would have made a big difference, for rugby as a whole (investing in by far the biggest market) and it would avoided some of the issues that caused probems in the Blues.
A Super Rugby battle of the bridge would have retained a lot of interest that has now been lost over the past 25 years. Remember North Harbour was pretty strong back then too.
Factor in all the Auckland/North Harbour/Counties players playing around the country and it's even a stupider decision.
@Kirwan said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
@Nepia said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
TBH, and apologies in advance at @Tim but I highly doubt that a Super team based in Harbour from the start would have made any difference to how things are going now. Auckland can't even run one competent team at the moment let alone two.
It would have made a big difference, for rugby as a whole (investing in by far the biggest market) and it would avoided some of the issues that caused probems in the Blues.
A Super Rugby battle of the bridge would have retained a lot of interest that has now been lost over the past 25 years. Remember North Harbour was pretty strong back then too.
Factor in all the Auckland/North Harbour/Counties players playing around the country and it's even a stupider decision.
If you'd have asked anyone in the 90s if the Blues would be a struggling franchise you'd get laughed at, I don't think there's a guarantee of success of a Harbour team in Super rugby (or if there would have been other knock on effects from basing it there).
I'm not saying it couldn't have been a success, but not the fait accompli you guys are making it out to be.
@nzzp said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
@Higgins said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
@nzzp Auckland may have one third of the country's population but about one third of that is either of Asian (mostly Chinses) or Indian origin/ethnicity neither of which are all that interested in rugby (the Japanese aside)
just be careful of sweeping generalisations. The lads who drew me into Eden Park (and are 25 year+ sesaon ticket holders) are indians; no reason the Rugby Religion can't sweep up folks from any ethnicity. Rugby's problem is more that it's hard to get into for damn near anyone, regardless of where you're from.
Yeah, I always remember seeing lots of Indians at rugby matches in NZ.
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@Kirwan said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
@Nepia said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
TBH, and apologies in advance at @Tim but I highly doubt that a Super team based in Harbour from the start would have made any difference to how things are going now. Auckland can't even run one competent team at the moment let alone two.
It would have made a big difference, for rugby as a whole (investing in by far the biggest market) and it would avoided some of the issues that caused probems in the Blues.
A Super Rugby battle of the bridge would have retained a lot of interest that has now been lost over the past 25 years. Remember North Harbour was pretty strong back then too.
Factor in all the Auckland/North Harbour/Counties players playing around the country and it's even a stupider decision.
If you'd have asked anyone in the 90s if the Blues would be a struggling franchise you'd get laughed at, I don't think there's a guarantee of success of a Harbour team in Super rugby (or if there would have been other knock on effects from basing it there).
I'm not saying it couldn't have been a success, but not the fait accompli you guys are making it out to be.
@nzzp said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
@Higgins said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
@nzzp Auckland may have one third of the country's population but about one third of that is either of Asian (mostly Chinses) or Indian origin/ethnicity neither of which are all that interested in rugby (the Japanese aside)
just be careful of sweeping generalisations. The lads who drew me into Eden Park (and are 25 year+ sesaon ticket holders) are indians; no reason the Rugby Religion can't sweep up folks from any ethnicity. Rugby's problem is more that it's hard to get into for damn near anyone, regardless of where you're from.
Yeah, I always remember seeing lots of Indians at rugby matches in NZ.
@Nepia Some of the problems of the Blues has been infighting between Northland, Harbour and Auckland.
On the Shore and Northland, they see the Blues as Auckland dominated, so you lose fan engagement there.
So two problems solved straight away.
Then you factor in the marketing advantages of local rivalries now being on the field, and being able to retain their talent and you have a better product.
Or you could prop up dwindling populations in Southland and Dunedin...
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@Higgins said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
@nzzp Auckland may have one third of the country's population but about one third of that is either of Asian (mostly Chinses) or Indian origin/ethnicity neither of which are all that interested in rugby (the Japanese aside)
just be careful of sweeping generalisations. The lads who drew me into Eden Park (and are 25 year+ sesaon ticket holders) are indians; no reason the Rugby Religion can't sweep up folks from any ethnicity. Rugby's problem is more that it's hard to get into for damn near anyone, regardless of where you're from.
@nzzp said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
@Higgins said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
@nzzp Auckland may have one third of the country's population but about one third of that is either of Asian (mostly Chinses) or Indian origin/ethnicity neither of which are all that interested in rugby (the Japanese aside)
just be careful of sweeping generalisations. The lads who drew me into Eden Park (and are 25 year+ sesaon ticket holders) are indians; no reason the Rugby Religion can't sweep up folks from any ethnicity. Rugby's problem is more that it's hard to get into for damn near anyone, regardless of where you're from.
Do their kids play?
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@nzzp said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
@Higgins said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
@nzzp Auckland may have one third of the country's population but about one third of that is either of Asian (mostly Chinses) or Indian origin/ethnicity neither of which are all that interested in rugby (the Japanese aside)
just be careful of sweeping generalisations. The lads who drew me into Eden Park (and are 25 year+ sesaon ticket holders) are indians; no reason the Rugby Religion can't sweep up folks from any ethnicity. Rugby's problem is more that it's hard to get into for damn near anyone, regardless of where you're from.
Do their kids play?
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As professional rugby supporters, I'm not sure that matters. My friend goes to heaps of Cowboys games, but his kids play tennis and golf.
@gt12 said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
As professional rugby supporters, I'm not sure that matters. My friend goes to heaps of Cowboys games, but his kids play tennis and golf.
I thought there was dwindling player numbers. I appreciate that you don't have to play to be a supporter, but surely the strike rate for a sport that has season ticket holders is some of their offspring take up the game.
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A real eye opener for me was listening to a rugby contract lawyer on a podcast a couple of years ago. He basically suggested that NZ Rugby should axe payments to NPC players in order to fund a professional women's competition, "because we just have to". That is the calibre of person who works in NZ rugby.
Of course Scotty Stevenson loved it.
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@gt12 said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
As professional rugby supporters, I'm not sure that matters. My friend goes to heaps of Cowboys games, but his kids play tennis and golf.
I thought there was dwindling player numbers. I appreciate that you don't have to play to be a supporter, but surely the strike rate for a sport that has season ticket holders is some of their offspring take up the game.
yep, but splitting the professional game and putting teams in client rich areas versus encouraging players (some of whom could become pros) should be separated IMO.
So, at the pro level, that probably means academies picking up brown kids from South Auckland before they get snatched by league (plus high school routes currently used). Many of them are natural Warriors supporters or will go where the money is, so I don't see how/why focusing on rich customers kids - as players - is necessarily important.
That's not to say we don't want more players, but most of the casual players are also likely to be outside the major 'rich' population areas (i.e., not Rems) such as South Auckland, rural NZ, regional cities etc.
Rich markets etc etc.
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@nzzp said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
@Higgins said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
@nzzp Auckland may have one third of the country's population but about one third of that is either of Asian (mostly Chinses) or Indian origin/ethnicity neither of which are all that interested in rugby (the Japanese aside)
just be careful of sweeping generalisations. The lads who drew me into Eden Park (and are 25 year+ sesaon ticket holders) are indians; no reason the Rugby Religion can't sweep up folks from any ethnicity. Rugby's problem is more that it's hard to get into for damn near anyone, regardless of where you're from.
Do their kids play?
@antipodean said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
@nzzp said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
@Higgins said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
@nzzp Auckland may have one third of the country's population but about one third of that is either of Asian (mostly Chinses) or Indian origin/ethnicity neither of which are all that interested in rugby (the Japanese aside)
just be careful of sweeping generalisations. The lads who drew me into Eden Park (and are 25 year+ sesaon ticket holders) are indians; no reason the Rugby Religion can't sweep up folks from any ethnicity. Rugby's problem is more that it's hard to get into for damn near anyone, regardless of where you're from.
Do their kids play?
all the boys did, some to late teens.
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5 Super teams, 1 in each major centre at the time - seems a sensible decision simply based on that alone. We've never just considered commercial factors - grass roots and regional rugby is an important part of the mix.
There also the point that our main commercial product is the All Blacks, and we've done well in keeping them dominant.
Ultimately though, this is the joy of professional sport run by a non-profit member-driven incorporated society. Sometimes, they make decisions based on non-commercial factors because at their heart, they are not a commercial organisation.
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@Hooroo said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
@Stargazer said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
I'd be furious if they canned the NPC .
You realise that doesn't matter right? What actually matters is implementation of a product(s) that aren't loss making. NPC died years ago despite a handful of passionate supporters.
I just hope that the decision they make is a good watch as I haven't watched NPC properly in ten years
Good for you, less so for those of us who prefer the NPC. Plus, it's reliant on them making a product that is profitable, and maybe no product can be successful and separate from the top down structure of NZ rugby.
With this and Oz rugby falling apart I guess I need to find a new sport to follow:
NRL - fucking useless Warriors, I hate origin, it's not the 90s anymore.
AFL - I just don't get aerial ping pong.
Wendyball - I made my decision not to follow it at age 5 so no reason to change that now.
V8's - Holden gone, car racing isn't a sport, and I don't even like cars anyway.
Netball -Hmmm, long legged ladies in skirts, could be a contender. -
@Nepia NPC is the competition that matters. It is the competition that has made NZ rugby great. Take that away and in 20 years we will be like Scotland. We can’t compete with those that have more money.
@kev said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
@Nepia NPC is the competition that matters. It is the competition that has made NZ rugby great. Take that away and in 20 years we will be like Scotland. We can’t compete with those that have more money.
In the past yes. NZ has changed significantly in the past 20years and rugby needs to change with it.
NPC has only been around since the 70s so there was a different structure of the game before that.
Evolution basically.
If we just keep spinning the wheels it certainly will be dead before long.
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A real eye opener for me was listening to a rugby contract lawyer on a podcast a couple of years ago. He basically suggested that NZ Rugby should axe payments to NPC players in order to fund a professional women's competition, "because we just have to". That is the calibre of person who works in NZ rugby.
Of course Scotty Stevenson loved it.
@Tim said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
A real eye opener for me was listening to a rugby contract lawyer on a podcast a couple of years ago. He basically suggested that NZ Rugby should axe payments to NPC players in order to fund a professional women's competition, "because we just have to". That is the calibre of person who works in NZ rugby.
Of course Scotty Stevenson loved it.
Oh ffs.
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@Nepia Some of the problems of the Blues has been infighting between Northland, Harbour and Auckland.
On the Shore and Northland, they see the Blues as Auckland dominated, so you lose fan engagement there.
So two problems solved straight away.
Then you factor in the marketing advantages of local rivalries now being on the field, and being able to retain their talent and you have a better product.
Or you could prop up dwindling populations in Southland and Dunedin...
@Kirwan said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
@Nepia Some of the problems of the Blues has been infighting between Northland, Harbour and Auckland.
On the Shore and Northland, they see the Blues as Auckland dominated, so you lose fan engagement there.
So two problems solved straight away.
Then you factor in the marketing advantages of local rivalries now being on the field, and being able to retain their talent and you have a better product.
Or you could prop up dwindling populations in Southland and Dunedin...
We don't have the server space to list the rest.
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@kev said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
@Nepia NPC is the competition that matters. It is the competition that has made NZ rugby great. Take that away and in 20 years we will be like Scotland. We can’t compete with those that have more money.
In the past yes. NZ has changed significantly in the past 20years and rugby needs to change with it.
NPC has only been around since the 70s so there was a different structure of the game before that.
Evolution basically.
If we just keep spinning the wheels it certainly will be dead before long.
@Kirwan couldn’t disagree more. You keep pushing all the money and resources to the elite of the game and you will be left with nothing. If provincial rugby dies, so does club rugby then all you will be left with is elite school boys, academies and Super 15 rugby for large cities.
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@Kirwan couldn’t disagree more. You keep pushing all the money and resources to the elite of the game and you will be left with nothing. If provincial rugby dies, so does club rugby then all you will be left with is elite school boys, academies and Super 15 rugby for large cities.
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@Kirwan couldn’t disagree more. You keep pushing all the money and resources to the elite of the game and you will be left with nothing. If provincial rugby dies, so does club rugby then all you will be left with is elite school boys, academies and Super 15 rugby for large cities.
@kev said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
@Kirwan couldn’t disagree more. You keep pushing all the money and resources to the elite of the game and you will be left with nothing. If provincial rugby dies, so does club rugby then all you will be left with is elite school boys, academies and Super 15 rugby for large cities.
It all depends on what you want the NPC for. There's a solid argument for a semi-pro comp, played in smallish stadia in front of local fans. I've always been really skeptical about Super players in it; they are fulltime pros, and unbalance the comp. To compete, you push the players to basically go pro without being paid. Not sure that's the right answer.
NZR have devalued Super, treated fans like they're irrelevant, and completely devalued the NPC. Let's not even talk about Club rugby - anyone but hardcore fanatics still even following it? No surprises they wound up here, it's sad but inevitable. It's taken 25 years of professionalsim to largely kill the sport, and it's goddamn sad
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It’s interesting that NZ Rugby is confronting the big issues now that there is a new CEO...
@Donsteppa said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
It’s interesting that NZ Rugby is confronting the big issues now that there is a new CEO...
Tew tried early in his term to make smilar moves and rationalize the NPC but several unions put themselves ahead of the national interest. Hopefully Robinson has greater success.
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@Donsteppa said in The future of NZ Super Rugby teams & the NPC:
It’s interesting that NZ Rugby is confronting the big issues now that there is a new CEO...
Tew tried early in his term to make smilar moves and rationalize the NPC but several unions put themselves ahead of the national interest. Hopefully Robinson has greater success.
@rotated keep banging that drum...there was manipulation of criteria designed to keep one team in and drop 2 others...granted one team has done nothing with the opportunity, while one has made every post a winner, and the team they were trying to save has done little too...
If it had been a fair process then while gutting you could eventually stomach it, but it wasnt so fighting it was the right thing to do.
