-
I guess I mean what science has given us. Take Semenya’s case for example. Back along, you have a minge, then you’re a woman. But science has allowed us to look past that. It has provided many other tests over and above the minge test. Science has given us the ability to artificially change our sex to a degree and who’s to say that won’t go farther in the future. Scientific progress has given an alternative viewpoint for some, which in turn has spawned the current ideology.
Yeah, I guess that’s what I mean when I say events.
-
@Catogrande said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
I guess I mean what science has given us. Take Semenya’s case for example. Back along, you have a minge, then you’re a woman. But science has allowed us to look past that. It has provided many other tests over and above the minge test. Science has given us the ability to artificially change our sex to a degree and who’s to say that won’t go farther in the future. Scientific progress has given an alternative viewpoint for some, which in turn has spawned the current ideology.
Yeah, I guess that’s what I mean when I say events.
I guess it’s true (I don’t know) that there were probably males with dsd’s who competed perfectly innocently in women’s sports in times gone by without ever realising. However, in recent times, it seems that there has been active ‘recruitment’ of these males by nefarious governments / coaches in order to ‘game the system’. At that point, it’s crucial we protect women’s sport from those individuals who have experienced male development.
I’m afraid I don’t accept the line ‘science has given us the ability to artificially change our sex’.
It’s not a matter of belief, it’s simply untrue. It has given us the ability to change our appearance. Sex is immutable.Ultimately I object to the idea that a belief that a man can become a woman is as worthy as the scientific fact that sex is immutable.
I think the fact that we’re having conversations about including males in women’s sport or indeed any other women’s space, has been muddied and empowered by the under ground, anti science, misogynist campaign that pretends twaw.
I find the lumping in of DSD individuals into the same argument distasteful and have sympathy for many of those people who discover they’re actually male later in life. Once it is clear that they are actually male however, if they continue to compete as a woman then they’re just cheats.
-
@Dodge said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Catogrande said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
I guess I mean what science has given us. Take Semenya’s case for example. Back along, you have a minge, then you’re a woman. But science has allowed us to look past that. It has provided many other tests over and above the minge test. Science has given us the ability to artificially change our sex to a degree and who’s to say that won’t go farther in the future. Scientific progress has given an alternative viewpoint for some, which in turn has spawned the current ideology.
Yeah, I guess that’s what I mean when I say events.
I guess it’s true (I don’t know) that there were probably males with dsd’s who competed perfectly innocently in women’s sports in times gone by without ever realising. However, in recent times, it seems that there has been active ‘recruitment’ of these males by nefarious governments / coaches in order to ‘game the system’. At that point, it’s crucial we protect women’s sport from those individuals who have experienced male development.
You will not find me arguing against anything there.
I’m afraid I don’t accept the line ‘science has given us the ability to artificially change our sex’. to a degree
It’s not a matter of belief, it’s simply untrue. It has given us the ability to change our appearance. Sex is immutable.I would agree with that. Many would not. This is what I mean by blurred lines.
Ultimately I object to the idea that a belief that a man can become a woman is as worthy as the scientific fact that sex is immutable.
As per my last comment.
I think the fact that we’re having conversations about including males in women’s sport or indeed any other women’s space, has been muddied and empowered by the under ground, anti science, misogynist campaign that pretends twaw.
I didn't think that was the conversation that you and I were having. I wholeheartedly agree with you that women's sport, women's safe places, women's toilets and changing facilities, women's prisons etc should be sacrosanct..
I find the lumping in of DSD individuals into the same argument distasteful and have sympathy for many of those people who discover they’re actually male later in life. Once it is clear that they are actually male however, if they continue to compete as a woman then they’re just cheats.
Again I agree, but many don't.
I seem to have started an argument that isn't really there simply by saying the lines have become blurred. The fact that there are these issues when before there were not, shows that the lines have become blurred. I can't see how such a simple assertion can firstly be denied and secondly is worthy of much of a response.
-
Apologies, I wasn't aiming all of my comments at you or the argument i perceived you to be making, the last two in particular were aimed at the wider conversation on this subject
the one point i would add in response to you specifically is that I don't believe there is a compromise here, I don't believe this is blurry and I don't care what other people arguing from the side of 'feels' think about that. One side will have to end up unhappy, and in my view that should categorically be the side of the science deniers and twaw mob. There is only one way to protect women's sport and there should be no compromise.
-
@Catogrande said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
FWIW. I hold broadly the same beliefs as you both, however, I also see that events have changed the views, to one degree or another, of many people. This cannot be ignored.
I've upvoted, but disagree with the last sentence. It should be.
-
Could, should but won’t be. Ignoring it is not going to make it go away. It will just grow.
-
@Catogrande said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
Could, should but won’t be. Ignoring it is not going to make it go away. It will just grow.
Yeah, nah.
It will grow if it remains unchecked.
Backing simple straightforward logical commonsense objective criteria will stop the creep of the confusion being normalised.
Some activists who try to blur the lines will be upset, yes. Tough. The portion of the population who are swayed by repetition of a slogan will drop when acceptance of normality again becomes the ... err ... norm.
-
I do take @Catogrande's point, activists are doing their level best to try and blur the lines as much as possible, even though the science on this is clear and well understood. And unfortunately they have been a lot more successful with that than you would hope, hence the movement and large organisations bending to their demands which cannot be ignored.
It also explains their focus on people with DSD conditions as opposed to trans, as DSD is reasonably complicated so most people won't understand the science behind the condition and how people with that condition develop differently.
For example Semenya's name gets thrown around a lot. She is a biological male with the DSD condition, but so many people don't even seem to understand that first point, they see her as a "blurred line" when it comes to sex which is not the case. She shouldn't compete in the women's category because she benefited from male levels of testosterone during puberty so has a huge advantage over biological females that did not.
My understanding is the screening being proposed would flag someone like Semenya as someone that needs further testing to understand exactly what their condition is and whether they benefitted from it. As others have said, if anyone is interested in learning more about the topic, Emma Hilton is a great starting point.
-
blah blah blah, transphobe
(not my response, but the standard response to an attempted discussion). I find the evangelical confidence just mindblowing in otherwise smart and curious people.
-
Insanity.
A toddler was suspended from nursery after being accused of being transphobic or homophobic, The Telegraph can reveal. Department for Education (DfE) data show the child, aged either three or four, was suspended from a state school in the 2022-23 academic year for “abuse against sexual orientation and gender identity”.
Worse still, this is not an isolated case. Apparently, 13 four and five-year-olds were suspended or permanently excluded from school for the same reason.
Toddler kicked out of nursery for being transphobic
Child suspended from state school for ‘abuse against sexual orientation and gender identity’, official figures show
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
Insanity.
A toddler was suspended from nursery after being accused of being transphobic or homophobic, The Telegraph can reveal. Department for Education (DfE) data show the child, aged either three or four, was suspended from a state school in the 2022-23 academic year for “abuse against sexual orientation and gender identity”.
Worse still, this is not an isolated case. Apparently, 13 four and five-year-olds were suspended or permanently excluded from school for the same reason.
Toddler kicked out of nursery for being transphobic
Child suspended from state school for ‘abuse against sexual orientation and gender identity’, official figures show
I've checked todays date
-
@MN5 said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
Insanity.
A toddler was suspended from nursery after being accused of being transphobic or homophobic, The Telegraph can reveal. Department for Education (DfE) data show the child, aged either three or four, was suspended from a state school in the 2022-23 academic year for “abuse against sexual orientation and gender identity”.
Worse still, this is not an isolated case. Apparently, 13 four and five-year-olds were suspended or permanently excluded from school for the same reason.
Toddler kicked out of nursery for being transphobic
Child suspended from state school for ‘abuse against sexual orientation and gender identity’, official figures show
I've checked todays date
Was published yesterday... pre-emptive?
-
@MN5 said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
Insanity.
A toddler was suspended from nursery after being accused of being transphobic or homophobic, The Telegraph can reveal. Department for Education (DfE) data show the child, aged either three or four, was suspended from a state school in the 2022-23 academic year for “abuse against sexual orientation and gender identity”.
Worse still, this is not an isolated case. Apparently, 13 four and five-year-olds were suspended or permanently excluded from school for the same reason.
Toddler kicked out of nursery for being transphobic
Child suspended from state school for ‘abuse against sexual orientation and gender identity’, official figures show
I've checked todays date
No, it's 31/3 and it's real. And not the only dumb stuff to surface recently. Starmer has commented on it/looking into it.
There's also a Sentencing Review Council which gives guidance to judges on sentencing people. They've just put out guidelines which tell judges to take into account the "transphobia" a trans convicted criminal might have suffered in his/her life when determining the sentence. Emergency legislation needed to ensure equality before the law.
-
-
-
@Catogrande said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
How the fuck can a parent do that to their child?
Absolute fluffybunny.
Mrs M's uncle is gay, plugged into the LGT world and tells me this attitude is present in sections of the gay community in the US who think it perfectly OK. He calls it systematic child abuse and "evil narcissism".
-
@Victor-Meldrew He's not wrong.
-
This is a motion passed by the BMA (British Medical Association) Doctors conference this WE on the UK Supreme Court ruling. The UK's medical establishment believes it's scientifically illiterate for the Supreme Court to state biological sex is immutable.
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
This is a motion passed by the BMA (British Medical Association) Doctors conference this WE on the UK Supreme Court ruling. The UK's medical establishment believes it's scientifically illiterate for the Supreme Court to state biological sex is immutable.
New spin on the hypocritic oath
Dolts
When's ducking coming back?
-
I liked this comment:
“It’s terrifying that a group of young doctors, all of whom have been through several years of advanced education and training in biology, have been indoctrinated by trans activism to such an extent that they claim categorisation by sex — male and female — is ‘reductive’ and has ‘no basis in science or medicine’.“These junior doctors are an embarrassment to their profession. What next: young geographers claiming that the Earth is flat, or junior vets who think it’s bigoted to suggest that cats can’t identify as dogs?
EDIT: Link to article here
Transgender debate, in sport, in general
