'Super Rugby' 2021
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@Machpants said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Well, I for one do want a 'duplicate' Blues team (North Auckland). As well as a Lower NI team, and a split Chiefs team.
I want an 8 team domestic pro comp.
So you’re a Crusaders and/or highlanders supporter? Divide up the NI franchises and Crusaders win every year ad nausuem
Canes supporter. Although BOP supporter at NPC level. Original Chiefs were a bastard frankenstein that never caught me.
North Auckland: Auckland: Northland and North Harbour
Auckland: Auckland and Counties
Waikato Chiefs: They lose Counties and BOP
BOP: gain East Coast and Poverty Bay (just tokenism really, can't be a single province franchise. But trying to add another largish NPC union like Hawkes Bay would just create another Frankenstein, BOP is where the growth is)
LNI: They regain Taranaki, lose Wellington, Wairarapa, Horowhenua.
Hurricanes: (Wellington, Wairarapa, Horowhenua)
Crusaders: unchanged
Highlanders: unchanged.@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Machpants said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Well, I for one do want a 'duplicate' Blues team (North Auckland). As well as a Lower NI team, and a split Chiefs team.
I want an 8 team domestic pro comp.
So you’re a Crusaders and/or highlanders supporter? Divide up the NI franchises and Crusaders win every year ad nausuem
Canes supporter. Although BOP supporter at NPC level. Original Chiefs were a bastard frankenstein that never caught me.
North Auckland: Auckland: Northland and North Harbour
Auckland: Auckland and Counties
Waikato Chiefs: They lose Counties and BOP
BOP: gain East Coast and Poverty Bay (just tokenism really, can't be a single province franchise. But trying to add another largish NPC union like Hawkes Bay would just create another Frankenstein, BOP is where the growth is)
LNI: They regain Taranaki, lose Wellington, Wairarapa, Horowhenua.
Hurricanes: (Wellington, Wairarapa, Horowhenua)
Crusaders: unchanged
Highlanders: unchanged.Bit mean to just leave the poo out altogether isn't it?
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@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Machpants said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Well, I for one do want a 'duplicate' Blues team (North Auckland). As well as a Lower NI team, and a split Chiefs team.
I want an 8 team domestic pro comp.
So you’re a Crusaders and/or highlanders supporter? Divide up the NI franchises and Crusaders win every year ad nausuem
Canes supporter. Although BOP supporter at NPC level. Original Chiefs were a bastard frankenstein that never caught me.
North Auckland: Auckland: Northland and North Harbour
Auckland: Auckland and Counties
Waikato Chiefs: They lose Counties and BOP
BOP: gain East Coast and Poverty Bay (just tokenism really, can't be a single province franchise. But trying to add another largish NPC union like Hawkes Bay would just create another Frankenstein, BOP is where the growth is)
LNI: They regain Taranaki, lose Wellington, Wairarapa, Horowhenua.
Hurricanes: (Wellington, Wairarapa, Horowhenua)
Crusaders: unchanged
Highlanders: unchanged.Bit mean to just leave the poo out altogether isn't it?
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@mariner4life said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
BOP: gain East Coast and Poverty Bay (just tokenism really, can't be a single province franchise. But trying to add another largish NPC union like Hawkes Bay would just create another Frankenstein, BOP is where the growth is)
did you see the BOP team on the weekend? What would that do v the Crusaders?
Get thrashed, Crusaders got thrashed repeatedly in 1996. But getting thrashed is only temporary if the structure of the competition doesn't entrench it.
Although the thread is Super Rugby 2021, my proposals are for a permanent structure not a one-off quick fix.
Lots of teams will get thrashed in 2021 by the Crusaders in the likely format. 3 of the Australians plus the Pasifika team will get reamed by them. But, worse, that will probably be a permanent state of affairs. Pasifika because of money and Australian franchises because they're trying to create 5 teams outs of 3 teams worth of talent, hamstringing themselves with players needing to be Australian qualified or potentially qualified, in a comp that includes another country creating only 5 teams but out of 6 teams worth of talent.
@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@mariner4life said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
BOP: gain East Coast and Poverty Bay (just tokenism really, can't be a single province franchise. But trying to add another largish NPC union like Hawkes Bay would just create another Frankenstein, BOP is where the growth is)
did you see the BOP team on the weekend? What would that do v the Crusaders?
Get thrashed, Crusaders got thrashed repeatedly in 1996. But getting thrashed is only temporary if the structure of the competition doesn't entrench it.
Although the thread is Super Rugby 2021, my proposals are for a permanent structure not a one-off quick fix.
Lots of teams will get thrashed in 2021 by the Crusaders in the likely format. 3 of the Australians plus the Pasifika team will get reamed by them. But, worse, that will probably be a permanent state of affairs. Pasifika because of money and Australian franchises because they're trying to create 5 teams outs of 3 teams worth of talent, hamstringing themselves with players needing to be Australian qualified or potentially qualified, in a comp that includes another country creating only 5 teams but out of 6 teams worth of talent.
success does beget success though...because people want to come and play for the winning team and its not like we have draft systems for new payer like other sports, so diluting the current teams whilst leaving the Saders...
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@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
North Auckland: Auckland: Northland and North Harbour
Auckland: Auckland and Counties
Waikato Chiefs: They lose Counties and BOPSo Auckland with the largest player base adds CM but Waikato and BOP go it alone?
@Bovidae said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
North Auckland: Auckland: Northland and North Harbour
Auckland: Auckland and Counties
Waikato Chiefs: They lose Counties and BOPSo Auckland with the largest player base adds CM but Waikato and BOP go it alone?
I don't mind if Auckland splits in 3*, and BOP stays in Chiefs. As long as it is an 8 team domestic pro comp. In fact it is probably better option but would create more disruption at the NPC level.
But minimal viability is 8 pro teams. Infact ideal number is 8 teams as per NZRUs desired Trans- Ta$man structure.
*However, in my mind that would involve creating 2 new NPC unions. As can't have a union and franchise being the same. As would make the NPC null and void basically. Auckland and Waitakere would split and Manukau and Franklin would split (Auckland and Counties border would need to be re-drawn - along lines of the historic Manukau CIty Council. So Pakuranga, Otahuhu, Manukau Rovers go south).
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@Rapido It looks like you are re-arranging the NPC in the North and sticking with Super in the south.
We have things about right as it is with regard to high quality teams. If you want to add more you dilute the talent and then run into problems of how to dilute only the NI because to bring the Crusaders on par you'd have to ditch Ta$man from there and send them where?
You can never quite win with our geography and populations but years of Super have shown us that the imabalances are through recruiting, not population.
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@Rapido It looks like you are re-arranging the NPC in the North and sticking with Super in the south.
We have things about right as it is with regard to high quality teams. If you want to add more you dilute the talent and then run into problems of how to dilute only the NI because to bring the Crusaders on par you'd have to ditch Ta$man from there and send them where?
You can never quite win with our geography and populations but years of Super have shown us that the imabalances are through recruiting, not population.
@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido It looks like you are re-arranging the NPC in the North and sticking with Super in the south.
We have things about right as it is with regard to high quality teams. If you want to add more you dilute the talent and then run into problems of how to dilute only the NI because to bring the Crusaders on par you'd have to ditch Ta$man from there and send them where?
You can never quite win with our geography and populations but years of Super have shown us that the imabalances are through recruiting, not population.
See my post above about NPC re-draw in north. For possible franshise border changes.
I don't care about diluted talent. As long as the diluted talent become evenish and the teams are from somewhere I care about.
Diluted talent from a place 8 hours flight away in team called something as bland as "Western", and a nickname as 90s as the "Force" wearing the same kit as 4 other teams in the comp. Then I care that it its diluted.
Or if you're not sure if a team like the Kings is a genuine attempt to establish a team or is a political box ticking 'quotas/transformation' exercise. Then I care that it its diluted.
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@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido It looks like you are re-arranging the NPC in the North and sticking with Super in the south.
We have things about right as it is with regard to high quality teams. If you want to add more you dilute the talent and then run into problems of how to dilute only the NI because to bring the Crusaders on par you'd have to ditch Ta$man from there and send them where?
You can never quite win with our geography and populations but years of Super have shown us that the imabalances are through recruiting, not population.
See my post above about NPC re-draw in north. For possible franshise border changes.
I don't care about diluted talent. As long as the diluted talent become evenish and the teams are from somewhere I care about.
Diluted talent from a place 8 hours flight away in team called something as bland as "Western", and a nickname as 90s as the "Force" wearing the same kit as 4 other teams in the comp. Then I care that it its diluted.
Or if you're not sure if a team like the Kings is a genuine attempt to establish a team or is a political box ticking 'quotas/transformation' exercise. Then I care that it its diluted.
@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido It looks like you are re-arranging the NPC in the North and sticking with Super in the south.
We have things about right as it is with regard to high quality teams. If you want to add more you dilute the talent and then run into problems of how to dilute only the NI because to bring the Crusaders on par you'd have to ditch Ta$man from there and send them where?
You can never quite win with our geography and populations but years of Super have shown us that the imabalances are through recruiting, not population.
See my post above about NPC re-draw in north. For possible franshise border changes.
It is still crazy IMO.
You are still leaving two of the top provinces wedded while splitting and re-shaping everyone else.
Splitting Ta$man and Canterbury wouldn't be an option either. Ta$man have built from being a feeder to the Saders. Take that away and they lose a lot of their attraction to players. -
@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido It looks like you are re-arranging the NPC in the North and sticking with Super in the south.
We have things about right as it is with regard to high quality teams. If you want to add more you dilute the talent and then run into problems of how to dilute only the NI because to bring the Crusaders on par you'd have to ditch Ta$man from there and send them where?
You can never quite win with our geography and populations but years of Super have shown us that the imabalances are through recruiting, not population.
See my post above about NPC re-draw in north. For possible franshise border changes.
It is still crazy IMO.
You are still leaving two of the top provinces wedded while splitting and re-shaping everyone else.
Splitting Ta$man and Canterbury wouldn't be an option either. Ta$man have built from being a feeder to the Saders. Take that away and they lose a lot of their attraction to players.@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido It looks like you are re-arranging the NPC in the North and sticking with Super in the south.
We have things about right as it is with regard to high quality teams. If you want to add more you dilute the talent and then run into problems of how to dilute only the NI because to bring the Crusaders on par you'd have to ditch Ta$man from there and send them where?
You can never quite win with our geography and populations but years of Super have shown us that the imabalances are through recruiting, not population.
See my post above about NPC re-draw in north. For possible franshise border changes.
It is still crazy IMO.
You are still leaving two of the top provinces wedded while splitting and re-shaping everyone else.
Splitting Ta$man and Canterbury wouldn't be an option either. Ta$man have built from being a feeder to the Saders. Take that away and they lose a lot of their attraction to players.What? Who is splitting Ta$man?
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@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido It looks like you are re-arranging the NPC in the North and sticking with Super in the south.
We have things about right as it is with regard to high quality teams. If you want to add more you dilute the talent and then run into problems of how to dilute only the NI because to bring the Crusaders on par you'd have to ditch Ta$man from there and send them where?
You can never quite win with our geography and populations but years of Super have shown us that the imabalances are through recruiting, not population.
See my post above about NPC re-draw in north. For possible franshise border changes.
I don't care about diluted talent. As long as the diluted talent become evenish and the teams are from somewhere I care about.
Diluted talent from a place 8 hours flight away in team called something as bland as "Western", and a nickname as 90s as the "Force" wearing the same kit as 4 other teams in the comp. Then I care that it its diluted.
Or if you're not sure if a team like the Kings is a genuine attempt to establish a team or is a political box ticking 'quotas/transformation' exercise. Then I care that it its diluted.
@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido It looks like you are re-arranging the NPC in the North and sticking with Super in the south.
We have things about right as it is with regard to high quality teams. If you want to add more you dilute the talent and then run into problems of how to dilute only the NI because to bring the Crusaders on par you'd have to ditch Ta$man from there and send them where?
You can never quite win with our geography and populations but years of Super have shown us that the imabalances are through recruiting, not population.
See my post above about NPC re-draw in north. For possible franshise border changes.
I don't care about diluted talent. As long as the diluted talent become evenish and the teams are from somewhere I care about.
Diluted talent from a place 8 hours flight away in team called something as bland as "Western", and a nickname as 90s as the "Force" wearing the same kit at 4 other teams in the comp. Then I care that it its diluted.
How do you propose that the talent becomes 'evenish'? Lock players to provinces?
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@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido It looks like you are re-arranging the NPC in the North and sticking with Super in the south.
We have things about right as it is with regard to high quality teams. If you want to add more you dilute the talent and then run into problems of how to dilute only the NI because to bring the Crusaders on par you'd have to ditch Ta$man from there and send them where?
You can never quite win with our geography and populations but years of Super have shown us that the imabalances are through recruiting, not population.
See my post above about NPC re-draw in north. For possible franshise border changes.
It is still crazy IMO.
You are still leaving two of the top provinces wedded while splitting and re-shaping everyone else.
Splitting Ta$man and Canterbury wouldn't be an option either. Ta$man have built from being a feeder to the Saders. Take that away and they lose a lot of their attraction to players.What? Who is splitting Ta$man?
@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido It looks like you are re-arranging the NPC in the North and sticking with Super in the south.
We have things about right as it is with regard to high quality teams. If you want to add more you dilute the talent and then run into problems of how to dilute only the NI because to bring the Crusaders on par you'd have to ditch Ta$man from there and send them where?
You can never quite win with our geography and populations but years of Super have shown us that the imabalances are through recruiting, not population.
See my post above about NPC re-draw in north. For possible franshise border changes.
It is still crazy IMO.
You are still leaving two of the top provinces wedded while splitting and re-shaping everyone else.
Splitting Ta$man and Canterbury wouldn't be an option either. Ta$man have built from being a feeder to the Saders. Take that away and they lose a lot of their attraction to players.What? Who is splitting Ta$man?
It is your only option for not leaving the Crusaders untouched and strong while fucking up everyone else.
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@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido It looks like you are re-arranging the NPC in the North and sticking with Super in the south.
We have things about right as it is with regard to high quality teams. If you want to add more you dilute the talent and then run into problems of how to dilute only the NI because to bring the Crusaders on par you'd have to ditch Ta$man from there and send them where?
You can never quite win with our geography and populations but years of Super have shown us that the imabalances are through recruiting, not population.
See my post above about NPC re-draw in north. For possible franshise border changes.
It is still crazy IMO.
You are still leaving two of the top provinces wedded while splitting and re-shaping everyone else.
Splitting Ta$man and Canterbury wouldn't be an option either. Ta$man have built from being a feeder to the Saders. Take that away and they lose a lot of their attraction to players.What? Who is splitting Ta$man?
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@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido It looks like you are re-arranging the NPC in the North and sticking with Super in the south.
We have things about right as it is with regard to high quality teams. If you want to add more you dilute the talent and then run into problems of how to dilute only the NI because to bring the Crusaders on par you'd have to ditch Ta$man from there and send them where?
You can never quite win with our geography and populations but years of Super have shown us that the imabalances are through recruiting, not population.
See my post above about NPC re-draw in north. For possible franshise border changes.
I don't care about diluted talent. As long as the diluted talent become evenish and the teams are from somewhere I care about.
Diluted talent from a place 8 hours flight away in team called something as bland as "Western", and a nickname as 90s as the "Force" wearing the same kit at 4 other teams in the comp. Then I care that it its diluted.
How do you propose that the talent becomes 'evenish'? Lock players to provinces?
@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido It looks like you are re-arranging the NPC in the North and sticking with Super in the south.
We have things about right as it is with regard to high quality teams. If you want to add more you dilute the talent and then run into problems of how to dilute only the NI because to bring the Crusaders on par you'd have to ditch Ta$man from there and send them where?
You can never quite win with our geography and populations but years of Super have shown us that the imabalances are through recruiting, not population.
See my post above about NPC re-draw in north. For possible franshise border changes.
I don't care about diluted talent. As long as the diluted talent become evenish and the teams are from somewhere I care about.
Diluted talent from a place 8 hours flight away in team called something as bland as "Western", and a nickname as 90s as the "Force" wearing the same kit at 4 other teams in the comp. Then I care that it its diluted.
How do you propose that the talent becomes 'evenish'? Lock players to provinces?
Natural selection. If a franchsie like the Blues with all their resources and advantages can be shit for 15 years. Anything is possible.
It will be more even than a 10 team Trans- Ta$man comp. Because a NZer can sign for any of the 8 teams and remain AB available. All 8 teams are under the same conditions. There isn't a structural weakness entrenching uneveness. Or if the currency backing 1/3rd of the competition's teams has plummeted by 90% over a decade while the other 2s are soaring. Then uneveness is going to get structural.
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@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido It looks like you are re-arranging the NPC in the North and sticking with Super in the south.
We have things about right as it is with regard to high quality teams. If you want to add more you dilute the talent and then run into problems of how to dilute only the NI because to bring the Crusaders on par you'd have to ditch Ta$man from there and send them where?
You can never quite win with our geography and populations but years of Super have shown us that the imabalances are through recruiting, not population.
See my post above about NPC re-draw in north. For possible franshise border changes.
It is still crazy IMO.
You are still leaving two of the top provinces wedded while splitting and re-shaping everyone else.
Splitting Ta$man and Canterbury wouldn't be an option either. Ta$man have built from being a feeder to the Saders. Take that away and they lose a lot of their attraction to players.What? Who is splitting Ta$man?
It is your only option for not leaving the Crusaders untouched and strong while fucking up everyone else.
@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido It looks like you are re-arranging the NPC in the North and sticking with Super in the south.
We have things about right as it is with regard to high quality teams. If you want to add more you dilute the talent and then run into problems of how to dilute only the NI because to bring the Crusaders on par you'd have to ditch Ta$man from there and send them where?
You can never quite win with our geography and populations but years of Super have shown us that the imabalances are through recruiting, not population.
See my post above about NPC re-draw in north. For possible franshise border changes.
It is still crazy IMO.
You are still leaving two of the top provinces wedded while splitting and re-shaping everyone else.
Splitting Ta$man and Canterbury wouldn't be an option either. Ta$man have built from being a feeder to the Saders. Take that away and they lose a lot of their attraction to players.What? Who is splitting Ta$man?
It is your only option for not leaving the Crusaders untouched and strong while fucking up everyone else.
Ah. No, I mean the comp will not be even as long as the Crusaders hoover up every country boy with the Lincoln connection as well as retain so much talent with good coaches and adminstrators. Eventually someone in that organisation will fuck it up, or people like Robertson and Riach move on and their replacements aren't as good.
It would be good (and quicker) if NZRU could force or draft players while re-establishing the comp. Like early S12, but ownership structures have changed, probably not likely.
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We have discussed before how a draft wouldn't work in NZ.
IMO we fucked up a lot of the parochial aspect of NZ rugby and the supporters bragging rights when we set up the franchises. It fucked up even more when the franchise based provinces became the route to pro rugby.
Over time at least we stemmed that a little by the re-jig of NPC and franchises showing more willingness to appoint from 'lesser' unions and the franchises have been going long enough that they have attracted their own support levels.
Re-setting all that again is crazy. I wouldn't want to become a Blues supporter. It has taken me decades to get my head around supporting a Waikato based team. -
We have discussed before how a draft wouldn't work in NZ.
IMO we fucked up a lot of the parochial aspect of NZ rugby and the supporters bragging rights when we set up the franchises. It fucked up even more when the franchise based provinces became the route to pro rugby.
Over time at least we stemmed that a little by the re-jig of NPC and franchises showing more willingness to appoint from 'lesser' unions and the franchises have been going long enough that they have attracted their own support levels.
Re-setting all that again is crazy. I wouldn't want to become a Blues supporter. It has taken me decades to get my head around supporting a Waikato based team.@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
a Blues supporter
Who did you support in the Lomu and Vidiri Blues years? Genuinely curious.
I know what you mean. About the original borders. But having expansion teams from other countries has bothered me way more than our internal border changes.
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We have discussed before how a draft wouldn't work in NZ.
IMO we fucked up a lot of the parochial aspect of NZ rugby and the supporters bragging rights when we set up the franchises. It fucked up even more when the franchise based provinces became the route to pro rugby.
Over time at least we stemmed that a little by the re-jig of NPC and franchises showing more willingness to appoint from 'lesser' unions and the franchises have been going long enough that they have attracted their own support levels.
Re-setting all that again is crazy. I wouldn't want to become a Blues supporter. It has taken me decades to get my head around supporting a Waikato based team.@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
We have discussed before how a draft wouldn't work in NZ.
IMO we fucked up a lot of the parochial aspect of NZ rugby and the supporters bragging rights when we set up the franchises. It fucked up even more when the franchise based provinces became the route to pro rugby.
Over time at least we stemmed that a little by the re-jig of NPC and franchises showing more willingness to appoint from 'lesser' unions and the franchises have been going long enough that they have attracted their own support levels.
Re-setting all that again is crazy. I wouldn't want to become a Blues supporter. It has taken me decades to get my head around supporting a Waikato based team.agree with the first half of that....but you know there no rule saying you have to support the team covering your area
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Rough populations: (if split Auckland in 3, and re-jig the Auckland/Manukau border)
North Auckland: 585,000
Auckland: 682,000
South Auckland: 563,000
Chiefs: 806,000
LNI: 580,00
Hurricanes (Greater Wellington): 527,000
Crusaders: 818,000
Highlanders: 337,000(based on 2018 data)
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and my original proposal, splitting the Chiefs.
North Auckland: 585,000
Auckland: 1,245,000
Greater Waikato: 482,000
BOP + Gisborne: 374,000
LNI: 580,00
Greater Wellington: 527,000
Crusaders: 818,000
Highlanders: 337,000 -
@Rapido Got something like registered player numbers to base that on?
The demographics might change a bit if you include the over 70s women in the BOP region for example.
