'Super Rugby' 2021
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@Derpus i honestly think thats why people are suggesting 2-3 aussie teams...those have the best support
even with that history its still not the same as essentially the same comp for over 100 years, super rugby can only claim 25 years and thats subjective with the number of changes
@Kiwiwomble Yeah but then you are limiting your audience and any potential growth. It was tremendously damaging to the game in Australia to cut the Force. They were the fastest growing area of rugby in terms of viewership and grassroots and boast the only billionaire benefactor around in the Southern Hemisphere. Sure they hadnt achieved anything particularly amazing yet but, as you say, these things take decades not years.
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@Kiwiwomble Yeah but then you are limiting your audience and any potential growth. It was tremendously damaging to the game in Australia to cut the Force. They were the fastest growing area of rugby in terms of viewership and grassroots and boast the only billionaire benefactor around in the Southern Hemisphere. Sure they hadnt achieved anything particularly amazing yet but, as you say, these things take decades not years.
@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Kiwiwomble Yeah but then you are limiting your audience and any potential growth. It was tremendously damaging to the game in Australia to cut the Force. They were the fastest growing area of rugby in terms of viewership and grassroots and boast the only billionaire benefactor around in the Southern Hemisphere. Sure they hadnt achieved anything particularly amazing yet but, as you say, these things take decades not years.
i agree re the force, im in Melbourne and couldn't believe the rebels got the nod....rugbys non existent here
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@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Kiwiwomble Yeah but then you are limiting your audience and any potential growth. It was tremendously damaging to the game in Australia to cut the Force. They were the fastest growing area of rugby in terms of viewership and grassroots and boast the only billionaire benefactor around in the Southern Hemisphere. Sure they hadnt achieved anything particularly amazing yet but, as you say, these things take decades not years.
i agree re the force, im in Melbourne and couldn't believe the rebels got the nod....rugbys non existent here
@Kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Kiwiwomble Yeah but then you are limiting your audience and any potential growth. It was tremendously damaging to the game in Australia to cut the Force. They were the fastest growing area of rugby in terms of viewership and grassroots and boast the only billionaire benefactor around in the Southern Hemisphere. Sure they hadnt achieved anything particularly amazing yet but, as you say, these things take decades not years.
i agree re the force, im in Melbourne and couldn't believe the rebels got the nod....rugbys non existent here
It was all related to legally how easy it was to cut ties with either franchise. That's why Rebels were chosen cos there were clauses that RA could enact that could allow them to cut ties with the Force whereas Rebels were legally on much stronger ground.
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@Bones said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Nepia said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Bones said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
I forgot my final point, being that no succesful comp in the world is perfectly balanced. To the contrary - the most valuable and succesful leagues are all pretty one sided with only a small percentage of the competing teams a realistic chance of winning the title. EPl, NFL, NRL, AFl, Bundesliga, NBL - they all have plenty of whipping boys.
i mean...thats not completely true, bth the NRL and AFL have had 7 different permiers in the last decade and the NFL have had nine....hardly a monopolies
I don't think he said monopolies did he? My reading of it makes perfect sense. There's always whipping boys, doesn't necessarily mean it's the same team every year.
Then what was the point of him even posting that? Because every comp in every year will have its share of whipping boys. It's a non point.
I think I'm the best person to ask that, good on you.
Well, you rode in with your shield up and lance out so you got the question directed at you.
@Nepia said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Bones said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Nepia said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Bones said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
I forgot my final point, being that no succesful comp in the world is perfectly balanced. To the contrary - the most valuable and succesful leagues are all pretty one sided with only a small percentage of the competing teams a realistic chance of winning the title. EPl, NFL, NRL, AFl, Bundesliga, NBL - they all have plenty of whipping boys.
i mean...thats not completely true, bth the NRL and AFL have had 7 different permiers in the last decade and the NFL have had nine....hardly a monopolies
I don't think he said monopolies did he? My reading of it makes perfect sense. There's always whipping boys, doesn't necessarily mean it's the same team every year.
Then what was the point of him even posting that? Because every comp in every year will have its share of whipping boys. It's a non point.
I think I'm the best person to ask that, good on you.
Well, you rode in with your shield up and lance out so you got the question directed at you.
Christ I thought you were better than that mate. Yeah I was riding in with a shield and Lance by mildly saying it made sense to me. Good one.
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fuck the Force. They were consistently shit, made lots of bad decisions. And WA is basically another country.
I would be very happy with a 9 team trans-tasman comp. 5 NZ 4 Aus, home and away, finals.
Perth just makes everything harder.
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@NTA This makes perfect sense from a Kiwi perspective but little to none from an Australian perspective.
Many Australian fans at this stage want to ditch SR altogether and start from scratch (verging on a majority). So any proposed TT comp is already starting at a low base of support. We are then required to cut two teams (presumably excluding Twiggy's Force over cutting one of the more traditional franchises) to be allowed to participate in what will effectively be an exercise in All Black production. I'm failing to see the incentive.
Most people argue that one of the biggest contributing factors to the decline of SR in Aus is the lack of local derbies/home games and local content. A 5/3 split will represent a marginal improvement over the current format - but will cut 2/5ths of the Australian market from the comp. A poor trade off.
It's no sure thing that cutting two teams will magically make the other three stronger, either. Plenty of players will simply leave for Japan or Europe and the financial and marketing damage done in the process would, in my opinion, be a terminal move for the remaining Australian teams - before a ball is even kicked.
The inconsistency of suggesting that we must cut two teams but the comp must also include a PI team is also pretty frustrating. What are the odds of a PI team (after the majority of the funds get siphoned off by the likes of Killer Keane) actually being competitive?
Finally, Twiggy has regularly expressed an interest in pumping considerable investment into a competition with a single management body that is run in it's own interests (rather than being primarily run for the purposes of Wallaby and AB production). There have also been expressions of interest from PE firms in the US. McLellan has expressed an interest in releasing control of the second tier of Australian rugby to private equity. Given the rather enormous trade-offs involved in us participating in an 8 (or 9) team TT comp - why wouldn't we pursue this option?
Word is a NZ only comp is not financially viable so i don't get why a string of senior NZ figures are trying to strong arm Aus into a format that makes absolutely no sense to them?
@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@NTA This makes perfect sense from a Kiwi perspective but little to none from an Australian perspective.
Many Australian fans at this stage want to ditch SR altogether and start from scratch (verging on a majority). So any proposed TT comp
I was more saying "IF a TT comp was to exist, then no more than 3 Aussie sides playing in it, with corresponding changes to supporting structures". Not that it should, necessarily.
@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Finally, Twiggy has regularly expressed an interest in pumping considerable investment
Twiggy didn't start even thinking about pumping considerable investment into anything until it was clear the Force were out on their arse. If he's such a good rugby man, where the fuck was he when the Force were struggling for a decade?
Fucking. Nowhere.
It is a win-win for him - buy a broken machine, put some new paint on it, and suddenly you're a hero with a purported $50M to spend on rugby.
It is great that he wants to help out now, but let's Beware of Greeks bearing gifts. Particularly with Twiggy's history. He'll pump anything that garners him a fuckton of government money and not much else.
I'll believe this other private equity investment when it lands.
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@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@NTA This makes perfect sense from a Kiwi perspective but little to none from an Australian perspective.
Many Australian fans at this stage want to ditch SR altogether and start from scratch (verging on a majority). So any proposed TT comp
I was more saying "IF a TT comp was to exist, then no more than 3 Aussie sides playing in it, with corresponding changes to supporting structures". Not that it should, necessarily.
@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Finally, Twiggy has regularly expressed an interest in pumping considerable investment
Twiggy didn't start even thinking about pumping considerable investment into anything until it was clear the Force were out on their arse. If he's such a good rugby man, where the fuck was he when the Force were struggling for a decade?
Fucking. Nowhere.
It is a win-win for him - buy a broken machine, put some new paint on it, and suddenly you're a hero with a purported $50M to spend on rugby.
It is great that he wants to help out now, but let's Beware of Greeks bearing gifts. Particularly with Twiggy's history. He'll pump anything that garners him a fuckton of government money and not much else.
I'll believe this other private equity investment when it lands.
@NTA That's pretty much the exclusive business model of private equity firms. Buy something that's in the dumps on the cheap, take over management and pump capital into it to turn a profit (where there is opportunity, obviously).
Yeah Twiggy only became involved when he had to - but he's followed through whenever he said he would.
Don't get me wrong. My overwhelmingly preferred option is a TT comp. But if it's anything less than a 10 team even split it becomes such a bad outcome for Aussie rugby that it's almost preferable to gamble on something new.
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@Kiwiwomble Ya.
I guess my point is basically just that you don't need every team in the comp to be capable of winning it for it to be a succesful comp. We will usually have at least one team capable of competing for the title and that should be enough.
@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Kiwiwomble Ya.
I guess my point is basically just that you don't need every team in the comp to be capable of winning it for it to be a succesful comp. We will usually have at least one team capable of competing for the title and that should be enough.
Fans want good quality and you're correct in saying not every team needs to be a shot for the title, but it doesn't help when teams consistently under perform. When that happens the question is what can be done to address it? NSW has only won one SR title and that with the benefit of a dodgy decision at the death. Quite frankly I'm surprised people still attend. At least in Canberra the Brumbies won more often than not, but even then the crowds have disappeared. I mean quite apart from the stadia issues, who wants to freeze watching penalty, kick for lineout, maul as a game plan? Apparently not even public servants.
I'd be thrilled if SR TT had five teams each and from one season to the next it was impossible to guess who'd be in the semi-finals. Australian fans I speak to just don't want to see Australian teams consistently losing to NZ ones.
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@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Kiwiwomble Ya.
I guess my point is basically just that you don't need every team in the comp to be capable of winning it for it to be a succesful comp. We will usually have at least one team capable of competing for the title and that should be enough.
Fans want good quality and you're correct in saying not every team needs to be a shot for the title, but it doesn't help when teams consistently under perform. When that happens the question is what can be done to address it? NSW has only won one SR title and that with the benefit of a dodgy decision at the death. Quite frankly I'm surprised people still attend. At least in Canberra the Brumbies won more often than not, but even then the crowds have disappeared. I mean quite apart from the stadia issues, who wants to freeze watching penalty, kick for lineout, maul as a game plan? Apparently not even public servants.
I'd be thrilled if SR TT had five teams each and from one season to the next it was impossible to guess who'd be in the semi-finals. Australian fans I speak to just don't want to see Australian teams consistently losing to NZ ones.
@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Australian fans I speak to just don't want to see Australian teams consistently losing to NZ ones.
that's a TT comp done then
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@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@NTA This makes perfect sense from a Kiwi perspective but little to none from an Australian perspective.
Many Australian fans at this stage want to ditch SR altogether and start from scratch (verging on a majority). So any proposed TT comp
I was more saying "IF a TT comp was to exist, then no more than 3 Aussie sides playing in it, with corresponding changes to supporting structures". Not that it should, necessarily.
@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Finally, Twiggy has regularly expressed an interest in pumping considerable investment
Twiggy didn't start even thinking about pumping considerable investment into anything until it was clear the Force were out on their arse. If he's such a good rugby man, where the fuck was he when the Force were struggling for a decade?
Fucking. Nowhere.
It is a win-win for him - buy a broken machine, put some new paint on it, and suddenly you're a hero with a purported $50M to spend on rugby.
It is great that he wants to help out now, but let's Beware of Greeks bearing gifts. Particularly with Twiggy's history. He'll pump anything that garners him a fuckton of government money and not much else.
I'll believe this other private equity investment when it lands.
@NTA said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Twiggy didn't start even thinking about pumping considerable investment into anything until it was clear the Force were out on their arse. If he's such a good rugby man, where the fuck was he when the Force were struggling for a decade?
Fucking. Nowhere.
It is a win-win for him - buy a broken machine, put some new paint on it, and suddenly you're a hero with a purported $50M to spend on rugby.Helping before hand wouldn't give him the press he so richly deserves. Just ask him.
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@NTA That's pretty much the exclusive business model of private equity firms. Buy something that's in the dumps on the cheap, take over management and pump capital into it to turn a profit (where there is opportunity, obviously).
Yeah Twiggy only became involved when he had to - but he's followed through whenever he said he would.
Don't get me wrong. My overwhelmingly preferred option is a TT comp. But if it's anything less than a 10 team even split it becomes such a bad outcome for Aussie rugby that it's almost preferable to gamble on something new.
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@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Kiwiwomble Ya.
I guess my point is basically just that you don't need every team in the comp to be capable of winning it for it to be a succesful comp. We will usually have at least one team capable of competing for the title and that should be enough.
Fans want good quality and you're correct in saying not every team needs to be a shot for the title, but it doesn't help when teams consistently under perform. When that happens the question is what can be done to address it? NSW has only won one SR title and that with the benefit of a dodgy decision at the death. Quite frankly I'm surprised people still attend. At least in Canberra the Brumbies won more often than not, but even then the crowds have disappeared. I mean quite apart from the stadia issues, who wants to freeze watching penalty, kick for lineout, maul as a game plan? Apparently not even public servants.
I'd be thrilled if SR TT had five teams each and from one season to the next it was impossible to guess who'd be in the semi-finals. Australian fans I speak to just don't want to see Australian teams consistently losing to NZ ones.
@antipodean i think the only people that demand top quality football are the teams already winning, when you're loosing a win is the first concern, even if it a lineout drive
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@Nepia said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Bones said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Nepia said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Bones said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
I forgot my final point, being that no succesful comp in the world is perfectly balanced. To the contrary - the most valuable and succesful leagues are all pretty one sided with only a small percentage of the competing teams a realistic chance of winning the title. EPl, NFL, NRL, AFl, Bundesliga, NBL - they all have plenty of whipping boys.
i mean...thats not completely true, bth the NRL and AFL have had 7 different permiers in the last decade and the NFL have had nine....hardly a monopolies
I don't think he said monopolies did he? My reading of it makes perfect sense. There's always whipping boys, doesn't necessarily mean it's the same team every year.
Then what was the point of him even posting that? Because every comp in every year will have its share of whipping boys. It's a non point.
I think I'm the best person to ask that, good on you.
Well, you rode in with your shield up and lance out so you got the question directed at you.
Christ I thought you were better than that mate. Yeah I was riding in with a shield and Lance by mildly saying it made sense to me. Good one.
@Bones said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Nepia said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Bones said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Nepia said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Bones said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
I forgot my final point, being that no succesful comp in the world is perfectly balanced. To the contrary - the most valuable and succesful leagues are all pretty one sided with only a small percentage of the competing teams a realistic chance of winning the title. EPl, NFL, NRL, AFl, Bundesliga, NBL - they all have plenty of whipping boys.
i mean...thats not completely true, bth the NRL and AFL have had 7 different permiers in the last decade and the NFL have had nine....hardly a monopolies
I don't think he said monopolies did he? My reading of it makes perfect sense. There's always whipping boys, doesn't necessarily mean it's the same team every year.
Then what was the point of him even posting that? Because every comp in every year will have its share of whipping boys. It's a non point.
I think I'm the best person to ask that, good on you.
Well, you rode in with your shield up and lance out so you got the question directed at you.
Christ I thought you were better than that mate. Yeah I was riding in with a shield and Lance by mildly saying it made sense to me. Good one.
I was just pointing out it didn't make sense to me ... not sure why you took it as a shitfight start?
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the other key to the success of any proposed venture is to fuck the All Black coaches off. If the NZRU don't care about the outcome of the comp, why should fans? Best players play when they are fit. No enforced stand downs and limited fucking minutes.
Sabbaticals can piss off too
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@antipodean i think the only people that demand top quality football are the teams already winning, when you're loosing a win is the first concern, even if it a lineout drive
@Kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@antipodean i think the only people that demand top quality football are the teams already winning, when you're loosing a win is the first concern, even if it a lineout drive
They have to entertain - that's the business they're in. The Tahs went for low risk rugby trying not to lose and the crowds deserted them. Who would travel to Moore Park to watch that dirge? Apparently no one.
At least when the Reds were winning, they were entertaining. Brisbane loved that. Entertaining and losing not so much.
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@NTA That's pretty much the exclusive business model of private equity firms. Buy something that's in the dumps on the cheap, take over management and pump capital into it to turn a profit (where there is opportunity, obviously).
Yeah Twiggy only became involved when he had to - but he's followed through whenever he said he would.
Don't get me wrong. My overwhelmingly preferred option is a TT comp. But if it's anything less than a 10 team even split it becomes such a bad outcome for Aussie rugby that it's almost preferable to gamble on something new.
@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
But if it's anything less than a 10 team even split it becomes such a bad outcome for Aussie rugby that it's almost preferable to gamble on something new.
Australia has painted itself into a small-minded corner piled with raw sewage.
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In the short term, a Trans- Ta$man competition is better financially for both RA and the NZRU.
NZRU can be as pure as they like but Australia has more eyeballs, more corporate dollars and is importantly on a much better timezone for the NH market. I've heard anecdotally that the audience in the UK for SuperAU has been around 50k, while Super NZ is struggling to get to 10k. It's purely because Australian rugby is at a more watchable hour.
And for RA there's no doubt NZ brings a better on-field product which will allow a better deal with broadcasters.
So while the exact comp structure might be up for debate, I'd think both unions see the benefit in the TT model.
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@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
But if it's anything less than a 10 team even split it becomes such a bad outcome for Aussie rugby that it's almost preferable to gamble on something new.
Australia has painted itself into a small-minded corner piled with raw sewage.
@NTA said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
But if it's anything less than a 10 team even split it becomes such a bad outcome for Aussie rugby that it's almost preferable to gamble on something new.
Australia has painted itself into a small-minded corner piled with raw sewage.
Not sure how cutting a team will help with that.
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@NTA said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
But if it's anything less than a 10 team even split it becomes such a bad outcome for Aussie rugby that it's almost preferable to gamble on something new.
Australia has painted itself into a small-minded corner piled with raw sewage.
Not sure how cutting a team will help with that.
@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@NTA said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
But if it's anything less than a 10 team even split it becomes such a bad outcome for Aussie rugby that it's almost preferable to gamble on something new.
Australia has painted itself into a small-minded corner piled with raw sewage.
Not sure how cutting a team will help with that.
You don't have to ration the glitter as much?
