'Super Rugby' 2021
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@Rapido You can understand the predicament RA finds themselves in; they need a product to sell. And a 10 week round robin isn't exactly inspiring.
@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido You can understand the predicament RA finds themselves in; they need a product to sell. And a 10 week round robin isn't exactly inspiring.
Not sure I'm following. I am in no way suggesting either nation continue with a 5 team competition.
Free from competition with 5 NZ franchises. ARU can weaken (broaden) their 5 teams into whatever format fits their needs. 8, 10, 6 ... whatever. They can do whatever they want with Giteau rule, loosen it, tighten it etc. To work out a sustainable domestic comp plus strong Wallabies balance.
If they find their top 2 teams are poor when it comes to 'Super 8' as tweeted above. At least its only a month or so. Not an entire regular season ruined.
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@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido You can understand the predicament RA finds themselves in; they need a product to sell. And a 10 week round robin isn't exactly inspiring.
Same applies to NZ.
@Machpants said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido You can understand the predicament RA finds themselves in; they need a product to sell. And a 10 week round robin isn't exactly inspiring.
Same applies to NZ.
true, you do wonder how these two organisations can come to such different opinions on what will work
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@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido You can understand the predicament RA finds themselves in; they need a product to sell. And a 10 week round robin isn't exactly inspiring.
Not sure I'm following. I am in no way suggesting either nation continue with a 5 team competition.
Free from competition with 5 NZ franchises. ARU can weaken (broaden) their 5 teams into whatever format fits their needs. 8, 10, 6 ... whatever. They can do whatever they want with Giteau rule, loosen it, tighten it etc. To work out a sustainable domestic comp plus strong Wallabies balance.
If they find their top 2 teams are poor when it comes to 'Super 8' as tweeted above. At least its only a month or so. Not an entire regular season ruined.
@Rapido I'm just pointing out they're hamstrung. I'm willing to beat that the addition of more teams and more fixtures isn't worth it despite the headline figure. That is to say if three teams and seven fixtures is worth $Y then I doubt four teams and 13 fixtures would be worth 1.9 x $Y
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@nzzp said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
What rivers of gold that would be more than if we “owned” the comp?
Broadcasting rights, by way of comparison, where they have 5 times our population and 20% higher GDP per person.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=AU-NZThere is just no way to compete financially. Rugby is 3rd (well, probably 4th overall if you consdier cricket), so why aren't we helping them grow their game and the market?
ARU TV Rights have gone from
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worth around A$25m per year (2011 to 2015)
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A$57m per year (2015-2019)
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A$35m per year was offered in 2019 for renewal (rejected)
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A$20m is what deal is now, after letting negotiations run , falling out with Fox, and covid happened.
NZRU signed in 2019 a NZ$500m (NZ$100m per year deal) in 2019.
Let me put this in table format:
So, next year. In theory.
NZRU will be getting a $20m per year USD pay rise.
ARU will be getting a $28m per year USD pay cut.We should add 5 more teams , from an ARU pot of 14.4m USD?
or add 3 more NZ teams (or 4 or 5 more) from an increased NZRU pot of $20m USD (total 66m USD) ? In an era of deflating rugby wages?I'm not trying to rub it in. I want ARU to do well, and perfect storm has hit them at same as their own incompetence. If run well and free of competing agendas, they are obviously worth more than that. But adding 5 Australian teams is not adding 5 well funded teams.
For a dose of realism - the NZRU and Sky's deal may get re-negotiated down if a new reality of decreased advertising revenue etc.
I have my biases. I want an NZ professional domestic comp.
I want to tap into the Australian and Japanese market by having an Asian-Pacific Champions League playoffs. As there is $ potential in those markets.
What we do know, is there is apparently no current desire by Australians to see 80% of their teams beaten each week they come up against an out-of-country opponent. Let them have a domestic comp. Wish it well, as we need to tap into their market for the champions league. Asia-Pacific Super Rugby.
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@Rapido thanks fella. Does that include internationals as well?
Probably highlights the upside if Australia can get interested in rugby, too. Just not sure how to make that happen
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@nzzp said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido thanks fella. Does that include internationals as well?
Yes it does.
And its quite possible they dont take place next year, and values get renegotiated.
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@nzzp said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido I'm wincing. Why so much lower than NZ? Does sanzaar negotiate independently now?
Yes, I think this was first time all were able to negotiate separately.
Previously. NPC and Currie Cup were removed from joint post, and then June tests were removed.
Plus first time Sky NZ had competition.
Plus implosion in ARU, and whatever Fox had to do with that.
Edit. Plus previous rights had uk rights battle between BT Sports and BskyB. Which would have been shared equally.
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@nzzp said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido I'm wincing. Why so much lower than NZ? Does sanzaar negotiate independently now?
Yes, I think this was first time all were able to negotiate separately.
Previously. NPC and Currie Cup were removed from joint post, and then June tests were removed.
Plus first time Sky NZ had competition.
Plus implosion in ARU, and whatever Fox had to do with that.
Edit. Plus previous rights had uk rights battle between BT Sports and BskyB. Which would have been shared equally.
@Rapido yeah, thats my understanding
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@akan004 said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
https://twitter.com/paulcullystuff/status/1292694846491115520?s=20
Is this where we start melting down as fans saying how dare the Aussie propose something where we’re only allowed 2 teams and then say we’re going to create our own league with teams from Hong Kong, Burma, and the Naki funded by that Russian oil billionaire?
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Maybe to help bolster the standard we could introduce a rule that All Blacks can be selected from this comp. That way players could be based in NZ, Australia or eventually Japan.
Would be a way to develop youth players for NZ and plug the depth gap in Aussie. Also a way for players to make money in Japan and not be lost of the All Blacks.
Would have to stop poaching of young talent, but might be a solution?
Tear it apart below
@Kirwan said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Maybe to help bolster the standard we could introduce a rule that All Blacks can be selected from this comp. That way players could be based in NZ, Australia or eventually Japan.
Would be a way to develop youth players for NZ and plug the depth gap in Aussie. Also a way for players to make money in Japan and not be lost of the All Blacks.
Would have to stop poaching of young talent, but might be a solution?
Tear it apart below
@Kirwan said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Maybe to help bolster the standard we could introduce a rule that All Blacks can be selected from this comp. That way players could be based in NZ, Australia or eventually Japan.
Would be a way to develop youth players for NZ and plug the depth gap in Aussie. Also a way for players to make money in Japan and not be lost of the All Blacks.
Would have to stop poaching of young talent, but might be a solution?
Tear it apart below
You're over-stating our depth, which is fucking appalling compared to a few years ago. The only scenario in which I would tolerate Kiwis playing for Australian sides is if they're able to throw the cash at them that NZR aren't and we're able to select them for the All Blacks.
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@nzzp said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
What rivers of gold that would be more than if we “owned” the comp?
Broadcasting rights, by way of comparison, where they have 5 times our population and 20% higher GDP per person.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=AU-NZThere is just no way to compete financially. Rugby is 3rd (well, probably 4th overall if you consdier cricket), so why aren't we helping them grow their game and the market?
ARU TV Rights have gone from
-
worth around A$25m per year (2011 to 2015)
-
A$57m per year (2015-2019)
-
A$35m per year was offered in 2019 for renewal (rejected)
-
A$20m is what deal is now, after letting negotiations run , falling out with Fox, and covid happened.
NZRU signed in 2019 a NZ$500m (NZ$100m per year deal) in 2019.
Let me put this in table format:
So, next year. In theory.
NZRU will be getting a $20m per year USD pay rise.
ARU will be getting a $28m per year USD pay cut.We should add 5 more teams , from an ARU pot of 14.4m USD?
or add 3 more NZ teams (or 4 or 5 more) from an increased NZRU pot of $20m USD (total 66m USD) ? In an era of deflating rugby wages?I'm not trying to rub it in. I want ARU to do well, and perfect storm has hit them at same as their own incompetence. If run well and free of competing agendas, they are obviously worth more than that. But adding 5 Australian teams is not adding 5 well funded teams.
For a dose of realism - the NZRU and Sky's deal may get re-negotiated down if a new reality of decreased advertising revenue etc.
I have my biases. I want an NZ professional domestic comp.
I want to tap into the Australian and Japanese market by having an Asian-Pacific Champions League playoffs. As there is $ potential in those markets.
What we do know, is there is apparently no current desire by Australians to see 80% of their teams beaten each week they come up against an out-of-country opponent. Let them have a domestic comp. Wish it well, as we need to tap into their market for the champions league. Asia-Pacific Super Rugby.
Good post. After reading 2 days of this thread I was going to make the same point. NZR already have a 5-yr deal with their broadcast partner while RA doesn't have a deal post-Super AU. From RA's perspective more teams (hopefully) equals more money but it won't be as simple as that. The leverage will be with the broadcaster, and I assume Foxtel is still the only option.
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Good post. After reading 2 days of this thread I was going to make the same point. NZR already have a 5-yr deal with their broadcast partner while RA doesn't have a deal post-Super AU. From RA's perspective more teams (hopefully) equals more money but it won't be as simple as that. The leverage will be with the broadcaster, and I assume Foxtel is still the only option.
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Expanding on Australia's idea of a southern hemisphere champion of champions competition here are some ideas.
- Countries/regions put forward one or two teams
- Two Tiers
- Intermingle with regular season comp rather than at end
- Qualify by position in previous year
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If NZ go without OZ we need more teams. A stronger NPC based competition is never going to happen so:
- Split Blues in Half - North Auckland team and a Auckland City team
- The proposed Pacific themed team based in Manukau, Mt Smart, or Pukekohe
- Chiefs
- Tauranga based team, maybe the China Lions team is expanded
- A Lower North Island Team, pretty much Central Vikings with Taranaki too
- Hurricanes
- Highlanders
- Crusaders
- Possibly a Ta$man based team too.
We need to expand the NZ comp slightly to make it less intense and an opportunity for more kiwi players
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If NZ go without OZ we need more teams. A stronger NPC based competition is never going to happen so:
- Split Blues in Half - North Auckland team and a Auckland City team
- The proposed Pacific themed team based in Manukau, Mt Smart, or Pukekohe
- Chiefs
- Tauranga based team, maybe the China Lions team is expanded
- A Lower North Island Team, pretty much Central Vikings with Taranaki too
- Hurricanes
- Highlanders
- Crusaders
- Possibly a Ta$man based team too.
We need to expand the NZ comp slightly to make it less intense and an opportunity for more kiwi players
@mikedogz said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
If NZ go without OZ we need more teams. A stronger NPC based competition is never going to happen so:
- Split Blues in Half - North Auckland team and a Auckland City team
- The proposed Pacific themed team based in Manukau, Mt Smart, or Pukekohe
- Chiefs
- Tauranga based team, maybe the China Lions team is expanded
- A Lower North Island Team, pretty much Central Vikings with Taranaki too
- Hurricanes
- Highlanders
- Crusaders
- Possibly a Ta$man based team too.
We need to expand the NZ comp slightly to make it less intense and an opportunity for more kiwi players
Chiefs=Waikato and canes=Wellington?
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Aussie can barely field 3 competitive teams, let alone 5
@canefan said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Aussie can barely field 3 competitive teams, let alone 5
It's a bit presumptuous to go to a broadcaster saying you've got a competition without asking the participants...
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@mikedogz said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
If NZ go without OZ we need more teams. A stronger NPC based competition is never going to happen so:
- Split Blues in Half - North Auckland team and a Auckland City team
- The proposed Pacific themed team based in Manukau, Mt Smart, or Pukekohe
- Chiefs
- Tauranga based team, maybe the China Lions team is expanded
- A Lower North Island Team, pretty much Central Vikings with Taranaki too
- Hurricanes
- Highlanders
- Crusaders
- Possibly a Ta$man based team too.
We need to expand the NZ comp slightly to make it less intense and an opportunity for more kiwi players
Chiefs=Waikato and canes=Wellington?
