'Super Rugby' 2021
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https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12356524
Revealed: The ambitious, new Super Rugby bid
Liam Napier
The push to be included in the new-look Super Rugby competition has another interested party, with a new group lodging a formal expression of interest with New Zealand Rugby to be part of the 2021 competition. Liam Napier reports.
The Asia Pacific Dragons have launched an ambitious bid to join Super Rugby from 2022.
The Singapore-based Dragons, backed by Carinat Sports Marketing, are one of many groups to log formal expressions of interest with New Zealand Rugby as the local governing body attempts to stitch together an eight-to-10 team tournament from next year.
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• Rugby: South Africa Rugby issue warning to New Zealand Rugby over new Super Rugby competition snubThe Herald understands the Dragons are one of four separate proposals New Zealand Rugby has received for the potential Pacific Island franchise alone.
Others include the Tracy Atiga-led Kanaloa Hawai'i, an Auckland-based group led by former Samoan lock Mark Birtwistle, while the Fijian Rugby Union is also understood to have expressed interest.
The Dragons' bid would see them stage matches in Auckland and Singapore and they have support from Pacific Island figures including Fiji's Nemani Nadolo, Samoa's Tusi Pisi and Tonga's Nili Latu. Other than their Pacific connection, the Dragons believe they can help unlock the lucrative Asian market.
Former Highlanders loose forward turned Dragons director of rugby Hale T-Pole, who is also the Pacific Island Rugby Players' chairman, said the Pacific national teams - Tonga, Fiji and Samoa - deserve this opportunity to gain a foothold in Super Rugby.
"Everyone keeps talking about helping, but the reality is the national teams have only slipped back further in world rankings. That isn't right and it's at the detriment to all genuine rugby lovers," T-Pole told the Herald.
"Auckland is the most logical 'home' base, not only due to having the community that will benefit the most but also logistically as we have a strong presence and following throughout Asia - a market we see important in growing the game. We would therefore plan to have some of our matches throughout the region.
"Covid has enforced the realities that the Super Rugby model wasn't working or as commercially successful as was needed. We are now living in a new world with new opportunities, and new thinking.
"NZR and Rugby Australia needs to re-think and actually change their approach to working with private entities such as ourselves and people like Andrew Forrest. We've demonstrated that private investment in rugby is a good thing, and it is a necessity for professional rugby to survive and thrive."
The Dragons formed in 2011 and first competed against the likes of the World XV and English giants Saracens. In various exhibition matches, they have been coached by Tana Umaga and Pat Lam. Last year they competed in Global Rapid Rugby, the tournament established by western Australian businessman Andrew Forrest following the Force's axing from Super Rugby.
Given New Zealand Rugby's concerns about the competitiveness of the five existing Australian sides against the strength of Kiwi opposition, the Dragons' one win from four matches in Global Rapid Rugby could prove a difficult sell, but they appear confident their proposal is attractive, realistic and allows time to attract talent.
T-Pole acknowledged even without Covid there is no chance to have a sustainable commercial programme in place by January 2021, let alone a competitive squad to take on the quality of sides in a Super competition.
"Therefore our proposal is for a 2022 entry which allows everyone time to ensure recruitment, commercial preparations and all aspects are successful.
"We also feel that as the only bid that can realistically bring the Asian market to the competition right out of blocks, we open up that potential. We cannot see another NZ-based team being commercially sustainable if NZ is the core commercial market.
"The other five brands already find themselves in an extremely cluttered market so we feel any new entrant team must bring a major expansion market with them to be sustainable, but also bring value to the competition."
Six years ago, the Dragons missed out in their first bid to join Super Rugby with Sanzaar instead preferring the rushed, and ultimately ill-fated, Tokyo-based Sunwolves entry.
"We believe it is six years of learning for everyone, not just ourselves. And that was the crux of our initial discussions with NZR before making the submission. The key takeaway is patience, and giving yourself enough time to build the success.
"This new entrant must ensure it is competitive and bring commercial value to help build the best rugby competition in the world. This should be the mission for the new competition. A strong and successful Pacific Island team, with Pacific national team qualified players, will do wonders for their performances."
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exciting....no idea how likely any of it is...but exciting
I like the idea of lead ins for new teams...give them time to really build support publicly , gets the social media up, throwing around shade, get some anticipation going
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I think Covid will probably see the end of the Trans- Ta$man competition plans.
My guess is we will see SuperAU and SuperNZ followed by a two week finals series with the top two sides in each comp going head to head.
Given they need to lock in agreements with broadcasters in the next month or so, signing up to a format that involves a lot of TT travel looks like it will be impossible to do.
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I think Covid will probably see the end of the Trans- Ta$man competition plans.
My guess is we will see SuperAU and SuperNZ followed by a two week finals series with the top two sides in each comp going head to head.
Given they need to lock in agreements with broadcasters in the next month or so, signing up to a format that involves a lot of TT travel looks like it will be impossible to do.
@barbarian sadly I think you're right. It gives more time for NZR and AR to talk together, hopefully like adults, and sort out the future, too
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might not actually be a bad way to build back into this
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I am very much against basing a team anywhere with no local presence.
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I am very much against basing a team anywhere with no local presence.
@mariner4life said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
I am very much against basing a team anywhere with no local presence.
The Chiefs are a prime example of that not working.
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@mariner4life said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
I am very much against basing a team anywhere with no local presence.
The Chiefs are a prime example of that not working.
@shark said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@mariner4life said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
I am very much against basing a team anywhere with no local presence.
The Chiefs are a prime example of that not working.
while I am not the Waikato's biggest fan...
That's unfair.
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@shark said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@mariner4life said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
I am very much against basing a team anywhere with no local presence.
The Chiefs are a prime example of that not working.
while I am not the Waikato's biggest fan...
That's unfair.
@mariner4life nope
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@Kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@mariner4life you think it will damage NZ? will it be much worse than previous comps?
I mean if both teams go it alone. Australia need our quality, (sorry Aussies, it's arrogant but it's true);
we are simply too small to do it by ourselves.
In the end both unions either go broke, or lose too many players to big O/S contracts.
@mariner4life said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@mariner4life you think it will damage NZ? will it be much worse than previous comps?
I mean if both teams go it alone. Australia need our quality, (sorry Aussies, it's arrogant but it's true);
we are simply too small to do it by ourselves.
In the end both unions either go broke, or lose too many players to big O/S contracts.
I see I'm 10 pages behind this thread so am assuming I've been boobooed before I begin, but ...
... what does Oz offer us? The Rugby market here is probably barely as big as NZ, and worth nothing to Fox.
I think we are still stuck in the mindset that they have a bigger market.
So they have no with, no quality and no money.
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@barbarian said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Why not? They have had pretty solid support, albeit with poor results. Regularly have big crowds at Bledisloes, tests etc.
@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@barbarian said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Why not? They have had pretty solid support, albeit with poor results. Regularly have big crowds at Bledisloes, tests etc.
COVID?
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@mariner4life said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@mariner4life you think it will damage NZ? will it be much worse than previous comps?
I mean if both teams go it alone. Australia need our quality, (sorry Aussies, it's arrogant but it's true);
we are simply too small to do it by ourselves.
In the end both unions either go broke, or lose too many players to big O/S contracts.
I see I'm 10 pages behind this thread so am assuming I've been boobooed before I begin, but ...
... what does Oz offer us? The Rugby market here is probably barely as big as NZ, and worth nothing to Fox.
I think we are still stuck in the mindset that they have a bigger market.
So they have no with, no quality and no money.
@booboo said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@mariner4life said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@mariner4life you think it will damage NZ? will it be much worse than previous comps?
I mean if both teams go it alone. Australia need our quality, (sorry Aussies, it's arrogant but it's true);
we are simply too small to do it by ourselves.
In the end both unions either go broke, or lose too many players to big O/S contracts.
I see I'm 10 pages behind this thread so am assuming I've been boobooed before I begin, but ...
... what does Oz offer us? The Rugby market here is probably barely as big as NZ, and worth nothing to Fox.
I think we are still stuck in the mindset that they have a bigger market.
So they have no with, no quality and no money.
Mainly they just have more teams. A 5 team competition isn't going to work so you may as well include the Aussie teams.
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@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@barbarian said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Why not? They have had pretty solid support, albeit with poor results. Regularly have big crowds at Bledisloes, tests etc.
COVID?
@booboo said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@barbarian said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Why not? They have had pretty solid support, albeit with poor results. Regularly have big crowds at Bledisloes, tests etc.
COVID?
In 2014?
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@booboo said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@barbarian said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Why not? They have had pretty solid support, albeit with poor results. Regularly have big crowds at Bledisloes, tests etc.
COVID?
In 2014?
@Machpants said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@booboo said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@barbarian said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Why not? They have had pretty solid support, albeit with poor results. Regularly have big crowds at Bledisloes, tests etc.
COVID?
In 2014?
It's a weird virus
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That suggestion reminds me of the AFL situation in SA. Adelaide was created as a greenfields club to represent the city, but later Port Adelaide was elevated from the SA league. This created massive division.
@shark said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
That suggestion reminds me of the AFL situation in SA. Adelaide was created as a greenfields club to represent the city, but later Port Adelaide was elevated from the SA league. This created massive division.
I think the issue was Port (biggest most successful club) tried to get entry to the AFL and the other SANFL clubs banded together to stop them. But I digress...
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@shark said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
That suggestion reminds me of the AFL situation in SA. Adelaide was created as a greenfields club to represent the city, but later Port Adelaide was elevated from the SA league. This created massive division.
I think the issue was Port (biggest most successful club) tried to get entry to the AFL and the other SANFL clubs banded together to stop them. But I digress...
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@mariner4life said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@mariner4life you think it will damage NZ? will it be much worse than previous comps?
I mean if both teams go it alone. Australia need our quality, (sorry Aussies, it's arrogant but it's true);
we are simply too small to do it by ourselves.
In the end both unions either go broke, or lose too many players to big O/S contracts.
I see I'm 10 pages behind this thread so am assuming I've been boobooed before I begin, but ...
... what does Oz offer us? The Rugby market here is probably barely as big as NZ, and worth nothing to Fox.
I think we are still stuck in the mindset that they have a bigger market.
So they have no with, no quality and no money.
@booboo NRZ seemed to conclude pretty early that a 5 team comp is not sustainable - so they need some additional teams. Obviously they just want the Tahs/Brumbies/Reds without having to worry about the Rebels or Force.
Issue is, it would be suicide for RA to exclude both those teams again. So they won't budge on the 5 team minimum. Hence the deadlock.
Both countries need each other in some capacity and both unions have ego's the size of celestial bodies.
In terms of market size - yeah the Australian market is currently smaller. But NZ is at saturation. It can't get any bigger. Rugby has previously been bigger in Australia and clearly has the capacity to improve with some half decent management (good luck finding that though).
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@booboo NRZ seemed to conclude pretty early that a 5 team comp is not sustainable - so they need some additional teams. Obviously they just want the Tahs/Brumbies/Reds without having to worry about the Rebels or Force.
Issue is, it would be suicide for RA to exclude both those teams again. So they won't budge on the 5 team minimum. Hence the deadlock.
Both countries need each other in some capacity and both unions have ego's the size of celestial bodies.
In terms of market size - yeah the Australian market is currently smaller. But NZ is at saturation. It can't get any bigger. Rugby has previously been bigger in Australia and clearly has the capacity to improve with some half decent management (good luck finding that though).
@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
clearly has the capacity to improve with some half decent management (good luck finding that though).
Have 3 teams that can win? In the most populous area of the country? Might help with crowds and viewer numbers. Watching poor quality rugby with 5 Aus teams seems unlikely to I reckon. It spreads the talent and all of the teams could be weaker.
Aus has about 87,000 registered players, NZ has around 150,000. 1 good team per 30,000 leaves you with...3 Aus teams. Admittedly a simplistic equation but also indicative of the way things panned out with expansion teams.
