All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11)
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@junior said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
@gt12 said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
Anyone not voting for Cane can GTFO.
I'm shocked that Moody doesn't have more votes. He was a machine on defence today. I would like to see more run metres out of him and Ofa, but since we hardly had the fucking ball, I can't really blame them for that.
After that, I think we have multiple options - from his very brief body of work, I think Clarke showed he belongs at this level and can be a weapon. Terrible selecting is the only thing him not starting showed.
Good point. It was actually annoying how little we used our muscle throughout the match to carry. I'm sure Whitelock had about 5 times as many carries as Pat T, which is just arse about face. I thought we actually started to use our forwards much better after the 80th minute, but even then we did the idiotic thing of giving the ball to Karl for the carry instead of someone better suited for it.
the problem is, more than half of our selected forwards are actually no good at carrying in to the teeth. We are relying on too few to do the heavy lifting. 3 of the 4 props, 1 80 minute lock, and two of the loose forwards are next to useless if you are trying to smash your way through the gain line.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
@junior said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
@gt12 said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
Anyone not voting for Cane can GTFO.
I'm shocked that Moody doesn't have more votes. He was a machine on defence today. I would like to see more run metres out of him and Ofa, but since we hardly had the fucking ball, I can't really blame them for that.
After that, I think we have multiple options - from his very brief body of work, I think Clarke showed he belongs at this level and can be a weapon. Terrible selecting is the only thing him not starting showed.
Good point. It was actually annoying how little we used our muscle throughout the match to carry. I'm sure Whitelock had about 5 times as many carries as Pat T, which is just arse about face. I thought we actually started to use our forwards much better after the 80th minute, but even then we did the idiotic thing of giving the ball to Karl for the carry instead of someone better suited for it.
the problem is, more than half of our selected forwards are actually no good at carrying in to the teeth. We are relying on too few to do the heavy lifting. 3 of the 4 props, 1 80 minute lock, and two of the loose forwards are next to useless if you are trying to smash your way through the gain line.
The other problem is there was no variation/subtlety to the ABs attack. For most of the game they stand a forward/pod out at first receiver and biff it to him and expect him to make metres. Finally at the very end they started showing some variation (e.g. pick and drive, short side etc) and got reward.
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@Yeetyaah said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
Who's voting for Clarke? Dude was good but he was only on the field for 18 minutes.
me!
He was eye catching; in hindsight I'd vote for Moody. Clarke showed up the shitty selections, and made an impact. And dropped a ball of course, but made an impact
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@Yeetyaah said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
Who's voting for Clarke? Dude was good but he was only on the field for 18 minutes.
me!
He was eye catching; in hindsight I'd vote for Moody. Clarke showed up the shitty selections, and made an impact. And dropped a ball of course, but made an impact
@nzzp said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
@Yeetyaah said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
Who's voting for Clarke? Dude was good but he was only on the field for 18 minutes.
me!
He was eye catching; in hindsight I'd vote for Moody. Clarke showed up the shitty selections, and made an impact. And dropped a ball of course, but made an impact
Moody getting votes is a fucking prblem. We were so bad a guy who scrums okay without dominating, offers basically zero in attack, and makes lots of safe, but not dominant tackles, is among our best 3 players. He's a role player who is there to make sure we don't lose. His best contribution was holding back slipper for our 2nd try.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
@Yeetyaah said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
Who's voting for Clarke? Dude was good but he was only on the field for 18 minutes.
me!
He was eye catching; in hindsight I'd vote for Moody. Clarke showed up the shitty selections, and made an impact. And dropped a ball of course, but made an impact
Moody getting votes is a fucking prblem. We were so bad a guy who scrums okay without dominating, offers basically zero in attack, and makes lots of safe, but not dominant tackles, is among our best 3 players. He's a role player who is there to make sure we don't lose. His best contribution was holding back slipper for our 2nd try.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
Moody getting votes is a fucking prblem. We were so bad a guy who scrums okay without dominating, offers basically zero in attack, and makes lots of safe, but not dominant tackles, is among our best 3 players. He's a role player who is there to make sure we don't lose. His best contribution was holding back slipper for our 2nd try.
The fact that Lomax was more effective as a ball-carrier in his shorter time on the field than either starting prop is a big concern. Ofa's biggest highlight was getting badly stepped by Bieber.
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We don't have a surfeit of ball playing, mobile props you can trust first and foremost to hold up a scrum. I prefer we pick two props who are content with being reliably damaging scrummagers and defenders. Get the mobility and ball playing elsewhere.
It might help if our structure wasn't readable by Helen Keller too. Then our props might be on the front foot carrying into a defence that is on its heels making bad decisions.
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We don't have a surfeit of ball playing, mobile props you can trust first and foremost to hold up a scrum. I prefer we pick two props who are content with being reliably damaging scrummagers and defenders. Get the mobility and ball playing elsewhere.
It might help if our structure wasn't readable by Helen Keller too. Then our props might be on the front foot carrying into a defence that is on its heels making bad decisions.
I haven't checked tape or anything, but I feel like we expect our props to be part of the attack structure (often being a key passer in the attack line) rather than being the person used in the attack.
Especially last year, we often had Owen Franks playing relatively wide, passing it as part of the formation, rather than carting it up.
Now, that probably means that we have big guys spread over the field for cleaning etc., but they are operating as fringe players on attack (pass, clean) in a relatively easy to identify pattern for opposition defenders. Edit: It does suit the role of a Franks, and has sadly become part of the way Moody is being used (he can be used as a rummer well, we just haven't been doing a good job of it). Ofa also can be a running threat. I think we just need a better structure (and more variety).
Then on defense, if they stay in that position, these guys have often been getting attacked as mismatches. Oz did that a couple of times really well on the weekend.
I wish Moli had stayed healthy (and improved his scrummaging) as he could be a real difference maker in the last 20. Ta'avao was another for the Chiefs who we got a lot of running out of, but his deficiencies get shown up at test level.
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@Bovidae @mariner4life ball carrying props is overrated, ask Owen.
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@Bovidae @mariner4life ball carrying props is overrated, ask Owen.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
@Bovidae @mariner4life ball carrying props is overrated, ask Owen.
the fact the poms have two who can scrum and run fucks me off no end.
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I haven't checked tape or anything, but I feel like we expect our props to be part of the attack structure (often being a key passer in the attack line) rather than being the person used in the attack.
Especially last year, we often had Owen Franks playing relatively wide, passing it as part of the formation, rather than carting it up.
Now, that probably means that we have big guys spread over the field for cleaning etc., but they are operating as fringe players on attack (pass, clean) in a relatively easy to identify pattern for opposition defenders. Edit: It does suit the role of a Franks, and has sadly become part of the way Moody is being used (he can be used as a rummer well, we just haven't been doing a good job of it). Ofa also can be a running threat. I think we just need a better structure (and more variety).
Then on defense, if they stay in that position, these guys have often been getting attacked as mismatches. Oz did that a couple of times really well on the weekend.
I wish Moli had stayed healthy (and improved his scrummaging) as he could be a real difference maker in the last 20. Ta'avao was another for the Chiefs who we got a lot of running out of, but his deficiencies get shown up at test level.
@gt12 said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
I haven't checked tape or anything, but I feel like we expect our props to be part of the attack structure (often being a key passer in the attack line) rather than being the person used in the attack.
Especially last year, we often had Owen Franks playing relatively wide, passing it as part of the formation, rather than carting it up.
Now, that probably means that we have big guys spread over the field for cleaning etc., but they are operating as fringe players on attack (pass, clean) in a relatively easy to identify pattern for opposition defenders. Edit: It does suit the role of a Franks, and has sadly become part of the way Moody is being used (he can be used as a rummer well, we just haven't been doing a good job of it). Ofa also can be a running threat. I think we just need a better structure (and more variety).
Then on defense, if they stay in that position, these guys have often been getting attacked as mismatches. Oz did that a couple of times really well on the weekend.
I wish Moli had stayed healthy (and improved his scrummaging) as he could be a real difference maker in the last 20. Ta'avao was another for the Chiefs who we got a lot of running out of, but his deficiencies get shown up at test level.
You have 100% nailed it our props are not used in attack thats why they have no running stats ,they are used as passers or decoys it takes away our ability to get over the advantage line.Aussie used their props in a completely different way than we did.
Ofa and Moodey are more than capable of getting us go forward if given a chance to.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
I haven't checked tape or anything, but I feel like we expect our props to be part of the attack structure (often being a key passer in the attack line) rather than being the person used in the attack.
Especially last year, we often had Owen Franks playing relatively wide, passing it as part of the formation, rather than carting it up.
Now, that probably means that we have big guys spread over the field for cleaning etc., but they are operating as fringe players on attack (pass, clean) in a relatively easy to identify pattern for opposition defenders. Edit: It does suit the role of a Franks, and has sadly become part of the way Moody is being used (he can be used as a rummer well, we just haven't been doing a good job of it). Ofa also can be a running threat. I think we just need a better structure (and more variety).
Then on defense, if they stay in that position, these guys have often been getting attacked as mismatches. Oz did that a couple of times really well on the weekend.
I wish Moli had stayed healthy (and improved his scrummaging) as he could be a real difference maker in the last 20. Ta'avao was another for the Chiefs who we got a lot of running out of, but his deficiencies get shown up at test level.
You have 100% nailed it our props are not used in attack thats why they have no running stats ,they are used as passers or decoys it takes away our ability to get over the advantage line.Aussie used their props in a completely different way than we did.
Ofa and Moodey are more than capable of getting us go forward if given a chance to.
@Chris said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
@gt12 said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
I haven't checked tape or anything, but I feel like we expect our props to be part of the attack structure (often being a key passer in the attack line) rather than being the person used in the attack.
Especially last year, we often had Owen Franks playing relatively wide, passing it as part of the formation, rather than carting it up.
Now, that probably means that we have big guys spread over the field for cleaning etc., but they are operating as fringe players on attack (pass, clean) in a relatively easy to identify pattern for opposition defenders. Edit: It does suit the role of a Franks, and has sadly become part of the way Moody is being used (he can be used as a rummer well, we just haven't been doing a good job of it). Ofa also can be a running threat. I think we just need a better structure (and more variety).
Then on defense, if they stay in that position, these guys have often been getting attacked as mismatches. Oz did that a couple of times really well on the weekend.
I wish Moli had stayed healthy (and improved his scrummaging) as he could be a real difference maker in the last 20. Ta'avao was another for the Chiefs who we got a lot of running out of, but his deficiencies get shown up at test level.
You have 100% nailed it our props are not used in attack thats why they have no running stats ,they are used as passers or decoys it takes away our ability to get over the advantage line.Aussie used their props in a completely different way than we did.
Ofa and Moodey are more than capable of getting us go forward if given a chance to.
Yes and no - they actually used Tupou as a runner and passer (and he's a great passer - 8 passes, more htan any other tight forward out there), but he was also in the line most of the time so a defensive threat too. You're right that we got nothing out of our starting props - literally zero metres from both of them according to ESPN (17 from Lomax, 2 from big Karl).
Tuipolotu's lack of run metres jumps out too - 5 passes, 4 runs, 2 metres, 1 defender beaten. I'm not sure having him as a the passing athletic (BBBR) lock is a great idea - just give him the job of getting metres.
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@Yeetyaah said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
Who's voting for Clarke? Dude was good but he was only on the field for 18 minutes.
I did.
18 minutes of quality penetration with one big mistake is still much better than 80 minutes of clueless fumbling around without breaking the line.
Sounds just like my love life really.
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@Chris said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
@gt12 said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
I haven't checked tape or anything, but I feel like we expect our props to be part of the attack structure (often being a key passer in the attack line) rather than being the person used in the attack.
Especially last year, we often had Owen Franks playing relatively wide, passing it as part of the formation, rather than carting it up.
Now, that probably means that we have big guys spread over the field for cleaning etc., but they are operating as fringe players on attack (pass, clean) in a relatively easy to identify pattern for opposition defenders. Edit: It does suit the role of a Franks, and has sadly become part of the way Moody is being used (he can be used as a rummer well, we just haven't been doing a good job of it). Ofa also can be a running threat. I think we just need a better structure (and more variety).
Then on defense, if they stay in that position, these guys have often been getting attacked as mismatches. Oz did that a couple of times really well on the weekend.
I wish Moli had stayed healthy (and improved his scrummaging) as he could be a real difference maker in the last 20. Ta'avao was another for the Chiefs who we got a lot of running out of, but his deficiencies get shown up at test level.
You have 100% nailed it our props are not used in attack thats why they have no running stats ,they are used as passers or decoys it takes away our ability to get over the advantage line.Aussie used their props in a completely different way than we did.
Ofa and Moodey are more than capable of getting us go forward if given a chance to.
Yes and no - they actually used Tupou as a runner and passer (and he's a great passer - 8 passes, more htan any other tight forward out there), but he was also in the line most of the time so a defensive threat too. You're right that we got nothing out of our starting props - literally zero metres from both of them according to ESPN (17 from Lomax, 2 from big Karl).
Tuipolotu's lack of run metres jumps out too - 5 passes, 4 runs, 2 metres, 1 defender beaten. I'm not sure having him as a the passing athletic (BBBR) lock is a great idea - just give him the job of getting metres.
@gt12 is Tuipoluto that ball running lock anymore? Earlier on in his career he was fantastic off the bench for the ABs and made us metres.
From what I saw this year for the Blues he has become more a hard graft type in the Brad Thorn mould.
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@Yeetyaah said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
Who's voting for Clarke? Dude was good but he was only on the field for 18 minutes.
I did.
18 minutes of quality penetration with one big mistake is still much better than 80 minutes of clueless fumbling around without breaking the line.
Sounds just like my love life really.
@MN5 said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
@Yeetyaah said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
Who's voting for Clarke? Dude was good but he was only on the field for 18 minutes.
I did.
18 minutes of quality penetration with one big mistake is still much better than 80 minutes of clueless fumbling around without breaking the line.
Sounds just like my love life really.
Fucking show off
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@gt12 is Tuipoluto that ball running lock anymore? Earlier on in his career he was fantastic off the bench for the ABs and made us metres.
From what I saw this year for the Blues he has become more a hard graft type in the Brad Thorn mould.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
@gt12 is Tuipoluto that ball running lock anymore? Earlier on in his career he was fantastic off the bench for the ABs and made us metres.
From what I saw this year for the Blues he has become more a hard graft type in the Brad Thorn mould.
And I'll repeat myself again. Apart from BBBR on occasions the AB locks have never been big ball-runners. The likes of Rodda, Coleman and Arnold were better at this, and used more often.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
@gt12 is Tuipoluto that ball running lock anymore? Earlier on in his career he was fantastic off the bench for the ABs and made us metres.
From what I saw this year for the Blues he has become more a hard graft type in the Brad Thorn mould.
And I'll repeat myself again. Apart from BBBR on occasions the AB locks have never been big ball-runners. The likes of Rodda, Coleman and Arnold were better at this, and used more often.
@Bovidae said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
@gt12 is Tuipoluto that ball running lock anymore? Earlier on in his career he was fantastic off the bench for the ABs and made us metres.
From what I saw this year for the Blues he has become more a hard graft type in the Brad Thorn mould.
And I'll repeat myself again. Apart from BBBR on occasions the AB locks have never been big ball-runners. The likes of Rodda, Coleman and Arnold were better at this, and used more often.
Eben Etszabeth is a monster at this too
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@junior said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
@gt12 said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
Anyone not voting for Cane can GTFO.
I'm shocked that Moody doesn't have more votes. He was a machine on defence today. I would like to see more run metres out of him and Ofa, but since we hardly had the fucking ball, I can't really blame them for that.
After that, I think we have multiple options - from his very brief body of work, I think Clarke showed he belongs at this level and can be a weapon. Terrible selecting is the only thing him not starting showed.
Good point. It was actually annoying how little we used our muscle throughout the match to carry. I'm sure Whitelock had about 5 times as many carries as Pat T, which is just arse about face. I thought we actually started to use our forwards much better after the 80th minute, but even then we did the idiotic thing of giving the ball to Karl for the carry instead of someone better suited for it.
the problem is, more than half of our selected forwards are actually no good at carrying in to the teeth. We are relying on too few to do the heavy lifting. 3 of the 4 props, 1 80 minute lock, and two of the loose forwards are next to useless if you are trying to smash your way through the gain line.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
@junior said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
@gt12 said in All Blacks MOTM v Aus (Oct 11):
Anyone not voting for Cane can GTFO.
I'm shocked that Moody doesn't have more votes. He was a machine on defence today. I would like to see more run metres out of him and Ofa, but since we hardly had the fucking ball, I can't really blame them for that.
After that, I think we have multiple options - from his very brief body of work, I think Clarke showed he belongs at this level and can be a weapon. Terrible selecting is the only thing him not starting showed.
Good point. It was actually annoying how little we used our muscle throughout the match to carry. I'm sure Whitelock had about 5 times as many carries as Pat T, which is just arse about face. I thought we actually started to use our forwards much better after the 80th minute, but even then we did the idiotic thing of giving the ball to Karl for the carry instead of someone better suited for it.
the problem is, more than half of our selected forwards are actually no good at carrying in to the teeth. We are relying on too few to do the heavy lifting. 3 of the 4 props, 1 80 minute lock, and two of the loose forwards are next to useless if you are trying to smash your way through the gain line.
And yet those guys tend to do a disproportionate amount of carrying!
