Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November
-
Are there any decent journalists that are going to ask some pointed questions of these guys at the next few press conferences?
@Unite said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Are there any decent journalists that are going to ask some pointed questions of these guys at the next few press conferences?
Foster just deflects to congratulating the other team, saying how well they played etc. It wasnt his fault, it was just the other team played better. It is very hard to win when the other teams just keep playing so well....
-
@Unite said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Are there any decent journalists that are going to ask some pointed questions of these guys at the next few press conferences?
Foster just deflects to congratulating the other team, saying how well they played etc. It wasnt his fault, it was just the other team played better. It is very hard to win when the other teams just keep playing so well....
-
The thing which frustrates me is this is the same-old, same-old.
The problems we saw from 2017 onward are still there and it shows against a team which can out-muscle and out-discipline us. The strategy doesn't seem to have changed much either - go down the blind, spin it into the midfield where the likes of BB can exploit the gaps and fast counter attacks. That and occasional shit kicks and poor discipline.
There just doesn't seem to be a Plan B or a default style of play when the main game plan isn't working and there's a need to retain possession and/or pressure the opposition into making mistakes. That's not helped by both individual stupidity and a collective sense of panic. We had this ability in spades until 2016 and I don't think it's down to individual players.
A few years ago, we played Argentina and were in exactly the same place. The team kept calm, tightened the play up, played for position and had confidence in their ability to make something happen. Sure enough we pilfered a ball (a Nonu hit IIRC) and launched a counter attack. Try. Change in tempo and confidence. Game over
Now there's a lack of composure which almost seems to have become part of the on-field culture which is worrying. It breeds nervousness and mistakes in the players which means we drop passes or make the wrong decision at key points in the game (e.g. BBBR in RWC2019 semi)
I don't blame Foster for all of this as he's inherited a lot of the problems and you have to give him credit for some good stuff like making the lineout drive a potent weapon and actually trying to bring some continuity to team selection. But he really needs to have a good, hard look at his tactics, his team plan/style of play development and, above all, get the players heads right, both individually and collectively.
And I can't fault Cane either for his on-field attitude. Sure, he's still learning and some of his decisions aren't good, but he's giving 120% and is at least focussing on controlling the team and the game. Do Senior players like Sam Whitelock, Nugget and Beauden Barrett need to step up and get more involved both on and off the field?
I don't think there's any need to panic as it's early days, but to keep Joe Public on-side, Foster and co. really should communicate what they see as the current problems and what they are doing to address them. Otherwise it's going to be another season or two of the same old headless chicken rugby
-
@ACT-Crusader I think everyone goes through this. A point at which your opponents catch up or pass you, and you have to rebuild. Is it game plan or players or leadership. Foster has just started his coaching reign. The World Cup showed we had problems. Not every game but when a team gets it right. He may may do what is required - let’s see what happens by the end of the tournament.
@kev I tend to agree. But the danger is losing confidence as we try to right some wrongs and adjust to changes.
Confidence or lack of it can be contagious and something the coaches and playing group need to arrest quickly.
-
So I ended up not watching this game. A quick scroll through this thread seems to indicate that it didn't go so well?
Now I have to decide whether to put myself through the torture of watching the replay.
@voodoo said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
So I ended up not watching this game. A quick scroll through this thread seems to indicate that it didn't go so well?
Now I have to decide whether to put myself through the torture of watching the replay.
Don't do it. I only watched the first 25 minutes before heading out. The recording got flushed
-
@Paekakboyz said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
And 13+ to boot. Fuck.
What were the odds on that pre game
@Nevorian head to head was 12 dollars, 13+ must have been upwards of $16?
Argentina half-time/full-time would have been spicy too.
Fuck.
-
So I ended up not watching this game. A quick scroll through this thread seems to indicate that it didn't go so well?
Now I have to decide whether to put myself through the torture of watching the replay.
-
@Paekakboyz said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@voodoo what @canefan said. Its bad bro, real bad. I watched the whole thing and wish I hadn't.
Imagine doing it surrounded by Wallabies supporters.
-
@Paekakboyz said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@voodoo what @canefan said. Its bad bro, real bad. I watched the whole thing and wish I hadn't.
Imagine doing it surrounded by Wallabies supporters.
The fact that you are posting this without a call to come bail you of jail is enough to show that you have considerable self-restraint.
-
@Paekakboyz said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@voodoo what @canefan said. Its bad bro, real bad. I watched the whole thing and wish I hadn't.
Imagine doing it surrounded by Wallabies supporters.
@antipodean said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Paekakboyz said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@voodoo what @canefan said. Its bad bro, real bad. I watched the whole thing and wish I hadn't.
Imagine doing it surrounded by Wallabies supporters.
Thats the time to sit quietly sipping your beer watching the fly walk up the wall
-
@Paekakboyz said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@voodoo what @canefan said. Its bad bro, real bad. I watched the whole thing and wish I hadn't.
Imagine doing it surrounded by Wallabies supporters.
@antipodean 2020 just keeps on giving eh?
-
People were complaining about mythical Bok and England concerns, but this was what we were worried about. A physical side making few mistakes.
@Kirwan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
People were complaining about mythical Bok and England concerns, but this was what we were worried about. A physical side making few mistakes.
Yes mate exactly what I was talking about that got slammed by a few people on here
No progression more losses coming m. -
@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@NTA As a neutral are we overreacting or were we really that shit?
I can't speak for all of you as a collective
but some of you may be egging it a bit too much in terms of this game being a disaster beyond all disasters. The fact is, this has happened before (RWC2019 SF) and will happen again.EDIT: I mean in terms of this being rugby. You have to accept losses. Just makes it hard for you bastards you only lose occasionally.
Argentina won the way you always beat the All Blacks: minimise your errors, make your tackles, and don't take any shit at set piece.
I've said it a few times the last month, but I think as fans you guys occasionally get carried away with the freakish skills some of your guys possess, and think that is the difference i.e. that they're just better as a group than everyone. Really, its just that the fifteen individuals you put on the park at one time (fourteen is S Barrett is playing ;)) are probably better players than the other blokes, but what is that saying about Champion Team versus Champion Individuals? Doesn't always work.
@mariner4life - in the same period - has pointed out a few times that when under the pump, the ABs haven't really looked that special. Nothing more than good even in Sydney - it was either dinky kicks breaking things open for you + counterattack (26-0 at halftime), or getting whacked (first part of the second half).
I count one set piece try in the period - and that was a 5 metre scrum where our flanker didn't get off in time at ANZ, leaving the wing stranded.
That has been the AB game plan since Henry / McCaw left: defend, counterattack, and (occasionally) pull off your skills and fitness, complemented occasionally by the odd piece of streaky bullshit. And I'm not saying those skills and fitness aren't great, because the winning record over the last decade speaks for itself.
BUT these skills and fitness aren't really built around any structure besides "You're the Fucking All Blacks, go out and win".
Looking at the last few weeks, maybe the depth isn't as good as everyone thinks. I'll talk about the tight five, because that's my jam.
Big concern for the Wallabies was second row in particular, but we generally stood up physically with Philip, LSL, and even Simmons. On the flipside, guys like Tuipolotou have not shown up with consistency. Whitelock is still a stalwart but looked a helluva lot better with BBBR (as would any of us!)
Your props are fine around the park but getting a bit of a lesson at scrum time, as a collective - that also comes back to your second row being a little frail. The combination there is important, and what stands out is you're not learning on the run. A couple of times the Wallabies put the ABs under pressure and you didn't adjust.
Must say that Coles is a fuckwit who throws his toys when he's not allowed to just swan around on the wing while everyone else does the hard yards (like Codie Taylor).
The backs are going through the motions, and look it isn't park footy and you can't always have a highly structured plan, but "play what's in front of you" has dangers of its own, especially when half the backline changes in the space of 2 weeks from A to B and back again.
Maybe making 9+ changes two weeks in a row wasn't the right decision. Maybe the selections and combinations are just wrong.
Regardless, you haven't really moved the needle in close to a decade, tactically speaking. It makes the ABs an easy target for coaches to plan for: front up physically, don't miss your tackles, and don't give away cheap ball. Of course, that relies on players executing and the Wallabies continue to be plagued by inconsistency.
Contrast Brisbane and Wellington versus ANZ and Auckland from a Wallabies point of view. Chalk and cheese in terms of execution.
The most burning example of this was Caleb Clarke: breaks 8 tackles on his way to setting up a try in Auckland, but was well looked after tonight. Simple game, really.
@NTA said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@NTA As a neutral are we overreacting or were we really that shit?
<SNIP>
EDIT: I mean in terms of this being rugby. You have to accept losses. Just makes it hard for you bastards you only lose occasionally.Argentina won the way you always beat the All Blacks: minimise your errors, make your tackles, and don't take any shit at set piece.
<SNIP>
That has been the AB game plan since Henry / McCaw left: defend, counterattack, and (occasionally) pull off your skills and fitness, complemented occasionally by the odd piece of streaky bullshit. And I'm not saying those skills and fitness aren't great, because the winning record over the last decade speaks for itself.
<SNIP>
The most burning example of this was Caleb Clarke: breaks 8 tackles on his way to setting up a try in Auckland, but was well looked after tonight. Simple game, really.
The first and last lines sum it up for me - I think we have been shit, we've just been lucky to have a few individuals like Caleb Clarke turn that shitness into a victory anyway.
Where I do disagree with you is in the Henry/McCaw era - we went into games with a clear game plan to put the opposition under pressure and played high percentage football to build that pressure. The opposition had to play at least above average to have a chance to beat Henry and McCaws AB's because they knew what their game plan was and knew what parts of their game they could use to suck up pressure/relieve pressure/create opportunities if that game plan wasn't delivering an outright advantage. While I won't dispute defence/counterattack/skills sometimes got us over the line, it depended on the opposition, how to exploit that teams weaknesses and how well we were playing, particularly towards the end of competitions/tours. And by and large, this continued in the Hansen/Read era although injuries to Read certainly disrupted this.
Fast forward to 2020 and Fozzies AB's versus Aussie last week. The game plan appeared to be "just throw it around and hopefully something works", when it didn't and we lost a player we briefly knuckled down to what we knew worked while down a player before coming out in the second half with no real plan again. Against Argentina we substituted no real plan for no real plan and terrible execution of the basics. While Argentina made their tackles and minimised their errors, the AB's looked directionless - how many times did we make errors under almost no pressure?
Sotutu's attempted pass to DMac in the last 10 minutes summed up the game - brilliant play and pass by Sotutu to create an opening but DMac didn't seem to be aware that it could have been an opportunity. Maybe I'm being harsh... But we are finding ways to stifle anything creative by just being shit.
-
@Kirwan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
People were complaining about mythical Bok and England concerns, but this was what we were worried about. A physical side making few mistakes.
Yes mate exactly what I was talking about that got slammed by a few people on here
No progression more losses coming m.@Chris said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Kirwan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
People were complaining about mythical Bok and England concerns, but this was what we were worried about. A physical side making few mistakes.
Yes mate exactly what I was talking about that got slammed by a few people on here
No progression more losses coming m.I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that only Cane and Whitelock would currently be selected in a combined AB/Bok pack. Whitelock may not even make it tbh.
That unfortunately is the reality of where our forwards are atm. We simply aren't world class up front anymore. -
First up Ref was good I thought. Matera was inspired. Ledesma managed to keep error rate super low and disciplined. D was relentless and very impressive way past 70 minutes in and I’m happy for the Los Pumas to finally get a meaningful return against ABs especially after all their lockdown efforts as seen in clips. Crazy motivational stuff with very little actual training field time to work with. Their urgency and focus as a result was just a different level and rough for any team to be on the receiving end of. The thought of 4am beer flowing throughout Argentina has me smiling. Similar passion to RWC19 Uruguay win v Fiji against all odds
-
This should make me feel better:
But it doesn't.
Already thinking about how to get better? How to get one back?
That horse has bolted man. You were there at Soldier field, how the fuck do you and the 6 other members who were also there not have that in your mind?
Get one back against Argentina? When did we become France?
What the fuck are you guys doing?
