Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November
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Not an excuse but what were the ABs playing for yesterday? A Trinations trophy nobody seems particularly interested in. I suspect many of the players would much rather be with their families and young children. Yes playing for the ABs should be enough motivation for anyone but from where I'm sitting they are a long way from being mentally strong.
Argentina on the other hand have had months of build up for this one game, to beat a team they have never beaten and a clear game plan to train for.
It was obvious which team wanted it and turned up. In theory the ABs have more talent and skill on a per player basis but the Pumas were a far better team both physically and mentally.
Not sure what the answer is but I hope they use the next two weeks to figure out why the players would rather be at home than playing for the ABs.
Robertson often talks about a journey and theme with the Crusaders all the players buy into, they are all playing for him and that theme. The ABs say the right things in the press but I wonder if many of the players don't believe in Foster and the team.
I think one clip BB off handedly said Plums doesn't know what he is talking about in reference to his Achilles injury. That is a concern to me.
@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Argentina on the other hand have had months of build up for this one game, to beat a team they have never beaten and a clear game plan to train for.
Wait, Argies don't have family? If I was an AB I'd be training to beat a team we'd never lost to.
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Well with the benefit of some space here’s my take.
The ABs have been riding their luck for a while now against a rush defence, with the theory being (as I understand it) that as defences tire you get misalignment because it becomes increasingly difficult for the big forwards to move up at pace while staying aligned with the backs. Then take advantage of the small misalignments to breach the d line.
In practice that worked too, which may be why we saw points coming in the 3rd quarter, the ABs made the oppo make tackles and tired out their forwards earlier in the game, then when the subs come on for the oppo it’s too late because they’re now playing catch-up and they have a different problem.
But all that is based on the AB doing their jobs really well. Good body position taking the tackle, good handling and great cleanouts to force the defence to move. Instead though we’ve now got slow and unreliable breakdowns so by the time the halfback has cleared the ball the rush has had plenty of time to align. As oppositions get fitter it becomes even harder manipulate the line.
I’m interested to know what Foster’s plan is now. The players obviously know their jobs but they aren’t executing. Sam Whitelock on his own isn’t going to secure quick ball for 80 minutes. And press conferences aren’t going to fix that, coaching is. But I haven’t seen any evidence of coaching happening.
If all you have to do to be AB coach now is selection then I’ll have a go. After all it seems you don’t have to actually win. I reckon I can do a selection conference then a post match where I can say the players didn’t execute. After all they’ve already fucked the legacy so I don’t have to worry about that.
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That’s good analysis from NTA. It reminds me of 1999 when NZ had talent to burn and thought they just had to turn up to win. ‘Just pass the ball to Jonah’. iIt’s also a lack of respect for the opposition and too much belief in their own myth. Most of all, it’s poor leadership and coaching. Foster’s a dead man walking.
@MrDenmore said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Foster’s a dead man walking.
He is if I see him.
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@NTA said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@NTA As a neutral are we overreacting or were we really that shit?
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EDIT: I mean in terms of this being rugby. You have to accept losses. Just makes it hard for you bastards you only lose occasionally.Argentina won the way you always beat the All Blacks: minimise your errors, make your tackles, and don't take any shit at set piece.
<SNIP>
That has been the AB game plan since Henry / McCaw left: defend, counterattack, and (occasionally) pull off your skills and fitness, complemented occasionally by the odd piece of streaky bullshit. And I'm not saying those skills and fitness aren't great, because the winning record over the last decade speaks for itself.
<SNIP>
The most burning example of this was Caleb Clarke: breaks 8 tackles on his way to setting up a try in Auckland, but was well looked after tonight. Simple game, really.
The first and last lines sum it up for me - I think we have been shit, we've just been lucky to have a few individuals like Caleb Clarke turn that shitness into a victory anyway.
Where I do disagree with you is in the Henry/McCaw era - we went into games with a clear game plan to put the opposition under pressure and played high percentage football to build that pressure. The opposition had to play at least above average to have a chance to beat Henry and McCaws AB's because they knew what their game plan was and knew what parts of their game they could use to suck up pressure/relieve pressure/create opportunities if that game plan wasn't delivering an outright advantage. While I won't dispute defence/counterattack/skills sometimes got us over the line, it depended on the opposition, how to exploit that teams weaknesses and how well we were playing, particularly towards the end of competitions/tours. And by and large, this continued in the Hansen/Read era although injuries to Read certainly disrupted this.
Fast forward to 2020 and Fozzies AB's versus Aussie last week. The game plan appeared to be "just throw it around and hopefully something works", when it didn't and we lost a player we briefly knuckled down to what we knew worked while down a player before coming out in the second half with no real plan again. Against Argentina we substituted no real plan for no real plan and terrible execution of the basics. While Argentina made their tackles and minimised their errors, the AB's looked directionless - how many times did we make errors under almost no pressure?
Sotutu's attempted pass to DMac in the last 10 minutes summed up the game - brilliant play and pass by Sotutu to create an opening but DMac didn't seem to be aware that it could have been an opportunity. Maybe I'm being harsh... But we are finding ways to stifle anything creative by just being shit.
@PecoTrain said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Where I do disagree with you is in the Henry/McCaw era
Point of order: I said "since [they] left"
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I got very drunk during the game and fell asleep not long after. So I’m up at 4:30am on a Sunday
We were soundly beaten by a better team. They looked better conditioned from the start to about the 66 minute. They were physically and tactically stronger than us. They played territory to close out the game and defended like demons for 80 min. It’s hard to say this but I stopped thinking we could win at half time. I just didn’t see anyone on the field that could turn it around. No one. We do not have someone that can take over a game anymore. BB looks like he can still hit a gap and pull out some freakish plays. But the time spent switching between positions has affected his game management. It’s all a bit predictable now.
Mo’unga was rubbish yesterday. He played so casually like the game wasn’t hanging in the balance. That’s a good trait to have if you can follow up a poor play with several good ones. Like James Maloney in league. But the problem for Richie is he often makes a mistake and then we don’t see him do any at all for very long stretches. That’s not what you need leading your team around the field. Not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water. He was outstanding a couple games back. But he’s still very much a work in progress.
I think Goodhue has been off all of the test series. He’s not making ground on carries and he’s been caught out on defense a few times. Looks underdone or carrying an injury. He’s much better player than what we have seen this year. His mate in the mid field has been outstanding though. ALB is going from strength to strength every game. Strong defender and makes ground on every carry. Best back this year.
Clarke got a reality check today. Will go back to calling him Eroni’s son instead of calling Clarke senior Caleb’s dad. I think Reece would have been a better option against this defense and with how flat we were on offence. Jordie Barrett needs to be given time in the 15 jersey. He was shit yesterday and was rightfully subbed but he’s playing out of position. I’d like to see McKenzie out on the wing. Just to see if we are potentially missing a trick. Yes I understand that would be playing another specialist fullback out of position...
The scrum got eaten yesterday. This is something we have been extremely strong in for a number of years now. So why have we suddenly gone backwards? I’m a fucken winger so can a prop explain it to me please? Redbeard was always good for that. Our lineout is consistently the best or in and around the best, year in year out. But not last night.
Aside from Whitelock I was disappointed with the entire forward back. They were bitch slapped for 80min. Hosking Sotutu made an impact against a tiring Puma pack but I’m struggling to think of a period we’re our pack looked cohesive or imposing.
I’m going to upset some of you Cane-Inites but he’s not a captains arsehole. ALB was taken high off the ball and eventually sent for an HIA. Nothing from Cane to the ref. Earlier in the game Jordie was hit with a shoulder to the head in a loose, almost armless tackle and he stayed down for a long period. Cane should have been screaming at the ref to look for foul play. But again nothing. Smith was hit high in yet another dubious tackle and again nothing from Cane. There was a maul formed on the Pumas line. The ref called out a pumas player to hold his position. Smith went to clear the ball and that player, the ref called out, then purposely knocked the ball out of smiths hands. That’s 10 in the bin everyday of the week. We were hot on attack and Cane did not blow up. That’s all you need to know he’s not the guy. Cant fault his effort to put his body on the line. But he’s not the guy. “Who do you give it to then, raz?” I hear you say. Fuck knows. Whitelock? Certainly plays like a “follow me”guy but is too quiet like Cane. A returning Retallick maybe. No one in the backs. Once upon a time Coles would have been good but he’s a 40-50min player now with an idiot streak that he’s never grown out of.
The ref was as shit as a ref can be. That charge down call was some shit he imagined. One of the worst calls I have ever seen. It shows a lack of feeling for the game and a lack of common sense. No excuses we lost because we were shit. But Angus put on one of the worst performances I’ve seen from a referee in years.
Lots to work on for the players. Very sure the coaches don’t have the ability to turn it around with a bit of motivational speaking. Because what ever was said at half time yesterday did Jack shit to spark them.
Probably a good thing Boks aren’t here this year
@raznomore said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
The scrum got eaten yesterday. This is something we have been extremely strong in for a number of years now. So why have we suddenly gone backwards? I’m a fucken winger so can a prop explain it to me please. Redbeard was always good for that.
I think its down to your second row inconsistency. When you've got BBBR or Thorn pushing it is a markedly different prospect to Whitelock (who is no slouch) and almost anyone else available ATM. Throw in Whitelock having a couple of up and down performances, and swapping combinations through selection.
Our lineout is consistently the best or in and around the best, year in year out. But not last night.
It wasn't great last week either. Camped on the Wallaby line at the end of the first half and then got picked off. Again: consistency.
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@raznomore said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
The scrum got eaten yesterday. This is something we have been extremely strong in for a number of years now. So why have we suddenly gone backwards? I’m a fucken winger so can a prop explain it to me please. Redbeard was always good for that.
I think its down to your second row inconsistency. When you've got BBBR or Thorn pushing it is a markedly different prospect to Whitelock (who is no slouch) and almost anyone else available ATM. Throw in Whitelock having a couple of up and down performances, and swapping combinations through selection.
Our lineout is consistently the best or in and around the best, year in year out. But not last night.
It wasn't great last week either. Camped on the Wallaby line at the end of the first half and then got picked off. Again: consistency.
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man if you look at some of the game stats (which are a bit dubious to say the least - like the defenders beaten ones for us) we should have won this game
28 tackles by Kremer from 31 attempted, Montoya with 2nd highest in the team with 16, and none missed
https://www.espn.com.au/rugby/playerstats?gameId=592925&league=289274
Just shows we did absolutely nothing with the ball we had.
Instead we just kept running into the wall expecting it to break.
This is where we needed Cane to step and say look, we need to do this instead, or BB to say he guys I can see we need to set our pods wider, or SMith to say look I can see we need to get over them cos we aint gettign through them...instead we stubbornly kept trying to break them down.
McCaw struggled in his early years as captain, I think Cane could be a very good captain too, but we need our senior players to step up and react to the situation, rather than seemingly keep banging away blindly
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As an aside, I'd like to know what the Argie number 5 was penalised for when knocked the ball from Aaron Smith's hands.
I heard the ref telling him he was ok in the maul, so why penalise him?
And if he was penalised for deliberately disrupting the hb, how is that different from barrets yellow card?
Big decisions being refereed differently is a problem.
Similarly what happened to "player safety" when ALB got HIA'd and Nugget got walloped?
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As an aside, I'd like to know what the Argie number 5 was penalised for when knocked the ball from Aaron Smith's hands.
I heard the ref telling him he was ok in the maul, so why penalise him?
And if he was penalised for deliberately disrupting the hb, how is that different from barrets yellow card?
Big decisions being refereed differently is a problem.
Similarly what happened to "player safety" when ALB got HIA'd and Nugget got walloped?
@Siam said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
As an aside, I'd like to know what the Argie number 5 was penalised for when knocked the ball from Aaron Smith's hands.
I heard the ref telling him he was ok in the maul, so why penalise him?
And if he was penalised for deliberately disrupting the hb, how is that different from barrets yellow card?
Barrett got a yellow card because he was off his feet, illegally positioned at a ruck, being a fuckwit.
The Argie 5 got a penalty because he was ON his feet, LEGALLY positioned at a maul, being a fuckwit.Both got penalised for knocking the ball with no attempt to rip or possess it. Effectively it is a deliberate knockdown but generally against the spirit of the game.
But the Laws give referees discretion to determine what is a professional foul or not. Barrett's met that definition because he decided to double down on stupid.
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@Siam said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
As an aside, I'd like to know what the Argie number 5 was penalised for when knocked the ball from Aaron Smith's hands.
I heard the ref telling him he was ok in the maul, so why penalise him?
And if he was penalised for deliberately disrupting the hb, how is that different from barrets yellow card?
Barrett got a yellow card because he was off his feet, illegally positioned at a ruck, being a fuckwit.
The Argie 5 got a penalty because he was ON his feet, LEGALLY positioned at a maul, being a fuckwit.Both got penalised for knocking the ball with no attempt to rip or possess it. Effectively it is a deliberate knockdown but generally against the spirit of the game.
But the Laws give referees discretion to determine what is a professional foul or not. Barrett's met that definition because he decided to double down on stupid.
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@NTA ok, I can understand that. So you need to be committing numerous offences to warrant a card.
Let's see how that plays out...
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@Siam all depends on the guy with the whistle.
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@taniwharugby and the replay guy, it would appear
@Siam to a lesser extent I think so, but largely on the ref, I mean the douche moment by Coles, most refs would tell him to pull his head in, but AG said that was a 'slap' and reversed the pen...
Man in the middle calls them as he sees them (even if he sees them wrong
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@Siam said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@NTA ok, I can understand that. So you need to be committing numerous offences to warrant a card.
Let's see how that plays out...
Not necessarily.
The first thing to remember is that rugby has Laws. Not Rules. Not Strictures. Not Gospel.
Laws have interpretation. That means in different situations you're going to have different outcomes, because ultimately rugby is a fluid game and you're going to get differences in refereeing depending on the flow of the game.
If Argie #5 did exactly the same thing BUT the ABs were 2 metres out from the goal line on a rampage with their maul, he probably gets yellow carded. I believe I commented at the time in this thread I thought it was "yellow, surely" but AFG didn't see it that way.
Remember that the guy with the whistle is generally the closest to the action. He's out there breathing every minute of the contest so he's making these interpretations run on the fly.
I would like some consistency around using the TMO but that has its own pitfalls and you can*'t* please all the fans all the time.
I love complaining about referees not penalising the ABs enough, but I like to think I've backed off on that since refereeing a game. In fact I think all rugby fans should do a shortened version of their local Union's refereeing course. Might help calm everyone down.
OK, not everyone, but some...
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@akan004 said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that only Cane and Whitelock would currently be selected in a combined AB/Bok pack. Whitelock may not even make it tbh.
That unfortunately is the reality of where our forwards are atm. We simply aren't world class up front anymore.Who would you take Cane over in the Bok pack?
@PecoTrain said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@akan004 said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that only Cane and Whitelock would currently be selected in a combined AB/Bok pack. Whitelock may not even make it tbh.
That unfortunately is the reality of where our forwards are atm. We simply aren't world class up front anymore.Who would you take Cane over in the Bok pack?
Kolisi.
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@taniwharugby said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@chimoaus not like these issues are new to 2020 though are they
Nope Chicago had a very similar feel to it.
@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@taniwharugby said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@chimoaus not like these issues are new to 2020 though are they
Nope Chicago had a very similar feel to it.
Chicago was the first game of a tour of what was nearly a home game with the amount of support the Irish had, so rustiness, a yellow card and a slight ambush played there parts. While it hurt, the Irish team was very strong at the time and Schmidt was a very good coach and the Irish had a lot of motivation.
In game 5, after last weeks loss, with no cards, with Cheika as part of the coaching staff and against a team that was ranked outside the top 5 (10th at the moment but they are better than that) in the world with arguably our first choice players? That's a much bigger issue.
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It seems that our magic number is still 26. We get there we normally win (and would have yesterday). Simplistic, but does hold some water.
Not many teams beat our defence to get past that score (Aus / Perth, Boks a couple of times last few years, but only just and we won one of them).
Our lack of imagination to break down defences is killing us. We can't get to that number. They all know how to stifle us and it works.
We managed >26 twice this year and won. Stats and damn lies I know, but our attack (and limiting it to counter attack and broken play) won't cut it anymore, other teams have it too sorted, we just can't score. More of a kicking game early to create doubt maybe, but at least try and kick into space. Execution is poor at the moment.
Yes, scoring more points than the opposition wins you games, but the point is our "attack" isn't there. We have the players but no idea how to use them to maximise the skills.
We can't go down the "kick for territory and kick penalties" route to win either because we give away too many ourselves (mostly through stupidity (Coles, S Barret, et al).
We really do need a Wayne Smith or maybe Tony Brown, as others have mentioned, as well as a head coach that inspires confidence not incompetence.
That's my venting over (and I don't feel any better for it either).
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@Siam to a lesser extent I think so, but largely on the ref, I mean the douche moment by Coles, most refs would tell him to pull his head in, but AG said that was a 'slap' and reversed the pen...
Man in the middle calls them as he sees them (even if he sees them wrong
)@taniwharugby said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Siam to a lesser extent I think so, but largely on the ref, I mean the douche moment by Coles, most refs would tell him to pull his head in, but AG said that was a 'slap' and reversed the pen...
Man in the middle calls them as he sees them (even if he sees them wrong
)Don't forget that AG had already told Matera that his team should not respond to AB provocation and that he would take care of it - I'm not sure there is much to complain about with that decision even if it was a little soft. The ref said he would do smething and he did.
