Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November
-
@Winger said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@raznomore said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Mo’unga was rubbish yesterday.
Agree. Mo’unga seems to need a dominate forward pack otherwise he rubbish
And BB was rubbish last week. The result. 2 lossesMy view is one should start and the other should be in the reserves. So say if Mo’unga starts and is playing like crap then take him off. To replace with a 1st 5 not someones whose been pissed around in two positions. But mainly at FB
Beauden's play at first 5 isn't going to improve more by being on the bench than it is by playing fullback with plenty of opportunity in the first receiver role.
@reprobate said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Beauden's play at first 5 isn't going to improve
Based on last week its not improving playing at FB. And the team needs another option at 1st
-
No first-five is going to play well unless he has some kind of forward pack in front of him.
-
I got very drunk during the game and fell asleep not long after. So I’m up at 4:30am on a Sunday
We were soundly beaten by a better team. They looked better conditioned from the start to about the 66 minute. They were physically and tactically stronger than us. They played territory to close out the game and defended like demons for 80 min. It’s hard to say this but I stopped thinking we could win at half time. I just didn’t see anyone on the field that could turn it around. No one. We do not have someone that can take over a game anymore. BB looks like he can still hit a gap and pull out some freakish plays. But the time spent switching between positions has affected his game management. It’s all a bit predictable now.
Mo’unga was rubbish yesterday. He played so casually like the game wasn’t hanging in the balance. That’s a good trait to have if you can follow up a poor play with several good ones. Like James Maloney in league. But the problem for Richie is he often makes a mistake and then we don’t see him do any at all for very long stretches. That’s not what you need leading your team around the field. Not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water. He was outstanding a couple games back. But he’s still very much a work in progress.
I think Goodhue has been off all of the test series. He’s not making ground on carries and he’s been caught out on defense a few times. Looks underdone or carrying an injury. He’s much better player than what we have seen this year. His mate in the mid field has been outstanding though. ALB is going from strength to strength every game. Strong defender and makes ground on every carry. Best back this year.
Clarke got a reality check today. Will go back to calling him Eroni’s son instead of calling Clarke senior Caleb’s dad. I think Reece would have been a better option against this defense and with how flat we were on offence. Jordie Barrett needs to be given time in the 15 jersey. He was shit yesterday and was rightfully subbed but he’s playing out of position. I’d like to see McKenzie out on the wing. Just to see if we are potentially missing a trick. Yes I understand that would be playing another specialist fullback out of position...
The scrum got eaten yesterday. This is something we have been extremely strong in for a number of years now. So why have we suddenly gone backwards? I’m a fucken winger so can a prop explain it to me please? Redbeard was always good for that. Our lineout is consistently the best or in and around the best, year in year out. But not last night.
Aside from Whitelock I was disappointed with the entire forward back. They were bitch slapped for 80min. Hosking Sotutu made an impact against a tiring Puma pack but I’m struggling to think of a period we’re our pack looked cohesive or imposing.
I’m going to upset some of you Cane-Inites but he’s not a captains arsehole. ALB was taken high off the ball and eventually sent for an HIA. Nothing from Cane to the ref. Earlier in the game Jordie was hit with a shoulder to the head in a loose, almost armless tackle and he stayed down for a long period. Cane should have been screaming at the ref to look for foul play. But again nothing. Smith was hit high in yet another dubious tackle and again nothing from Cane. There was a maul formed on the Pumas line. The ref called out a pumas player to hold his position. Smith went to clear the ball and that player, the ref called out, then purposely knocked the ball out of smiths hands. That’s 10 in the bin everyday of the week. We were hot on attack and Cane did not blow up. That’s all you need to know he’s not the guy. Cant fault his effort to put his body on the line. But he’s not the guy. “Who do you give it to then, raz?” I hear you say. Fuck knows. Whitelock? Certainly plays like a “follow me”guy but is too quiet like Cane. A returning Retallick maybe. No one in the backs. Once upon a time Coles would have been good but he’s a 40-50min player now with an idiot streak that he’s never grown out of.
The ref was as shit as a ref can be. That charge down call was some shit he imagined. One of the worst calls I have ever seen. It shows a lack of feeling for the game and a lack of common sense. No excuses we lost because we were shit. But Angus put on one of the worst performances I’ve seen from a referee in years.
Lots to work on for the players. Very sure the coaches don’t have the ability to turn it around with a bit of motivational speaking. Because what ever was said at half time yesterday did Jack shit to spark them.
Probably a good thing Boks aren’t here this year
@raznomore BB's game management was always fickle.
Coles did have a time he controlled himself and he is still a form hooker but needs to be left out to cool down. Senior players need to fight for their place.I agree with the captaincy issue you raise. Cantabs can say better than I can, but I don't think SW would be a too quiet captain. There is one other option and that is A Smith. He would not be quiet but would he be a good captain?
-
Well, late to the thread. By crikey that was an annoying loss. The thing that really stands out for me, and leaves me furious, is that we didn't make Argentina create much to soundly beat us.
What we're seeing is what we feared with Foster - poor selections, and very little quality coaching. He's hell bent on getting what he sees as the best XV players out there, no matter whether they are specialists or not. Savea/Can, and ALB/Goodhue are the obvious ones, but we're also playing a heffalump at 14 and not giving him the kicks or allwoing him to contest in the air. It's insane - we trade off the speed and agility of a winger to get a big, strong, tall kicker, adn don't use his strengths.
Going back to the Argies, well done lads. You tackled your guts out, created a try with a moment of chaos, and took all the possession and territory we gifted you on a platter. Fair play, straigh up dominated us around the paddock.
Offensively we struggled, again, and just can't seem to actually understand how to break down a defence to create space outside. Goddamn I'm frustrated about this.
Finally, the thing that pushes the coaching concern for me is how players go the longer they spend in camp. Right now, you are seeing good players look headless or lost (TJP as an example), and just not improving the way they used to.
All in all, and I don't say this lightly, Foster should fall on his sword. If you can't get the team up afte rlosing last week, when and how the hella re you going to do that. Roll on 2021, because 2020 is a year to forget.
-
Y'all motherfuckers ready to listen to me yet?
@mariner4life said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Y'all motherfuckers ready to listen to me yet?
I've been a devout follower of your gospel for a while now. As a seasoned and traumatised Chiefs fan you have the experience to see the patterns unfolding and predict what will come should we continue down this road.
-
As I said before, there has been no change in game plan from the old version. The rugby world has countered the 2015 game plan, packed up, moved on, and left the ABs behind to reflect on their golden age.
The Agies knew there wouldn't be hard yards made up the middle so they just committed one or two to the breakdown, spread out and waited for the inevitable pod system crash ball. So predictable and easy pickings. I will have to watch again but it seemed that the game was a bit weird, it lacked a traditional forward contest. There were few actual real contests of eight on eight fighting for every inch and dominance. Putting the ball in front of the forwards and carve off some territory by kicking to the corners etc, etc. Nothing resembling any type of game plan except an actual stricter version of the failed old one. -
Wow. Congratulations Argentina. Never would have picked this, with the covid impacted build up for them.
@Rapido said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Wow. Congratulations Argentina. Never would have picked this, with the covid impacted build up for them.
I think it was good for them. It was like aRWC build up, sad I mentioned pre match. A lot of time together, a couple of minutes games to warm up, then an ambush Vs ABs
-
@Rapido said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Wow. Congratulations Argentina. Never would have picked this, with the covid impacted build up for them.
I think it was good for them. It was like aRWC build up, sad I mentioned pre match. A lot of time together, a couple of minutes games to warm up, then an ambush Vs ABs
@Machpants said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I think it was good for them.
Yeah, I thought that too.
Watching us smash ourselves around in SRA, then against the Aussies for weeks and weeks.
They had rested bodies (and minds) and been doing the training, were clearly fit. We looked flat and tired.No excuses there though. They were better than us and if you can't lift for a test you shouldn't be on the field (I might still be a little grumpy).
-
@Rapido said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Wow. Congratulations Argentina. Never would have picked this, with the covid impacted build up for them.
I think it was good for them. It was like aRWC build up, sad I mentioned pre match. A lot of time together, a couple of minutes games to warm up, then an ambush Vs ABs
@Machpants said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Rapido said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Wow. Congratulations Argentina. Never would have picked this, with the covid impacted build up for them.
I think it was good for them. It was like aRWC build up, sad I mentioned pre match. A lot of time together, a couple of minutes games to warm up, then an ambush Vs ABs
Assuming all 12 of them made good recoveries. The NBA experience was the total opposite, the guys that caught it never quite recovered,Westbrook a great example. Wonder there is something in the way Covid hits your aerobic/aerobic efforts.
-
@NTA said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@raznomore said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
The scrum got eaten yesterday. This is something we have been extremely strong in for a number of years now. So why have we suddenly gone backwards? I’m a fucken winger so can a prop explain it to me please. Redbeard was always good for that.
I think its down to your second row inconsistency. When you've got BBBR or Thorn pushing it is a markedly different prospect to Whitelock (who is no slouch) and almost anyone else available ATM. Throw in Whitelock having a couple of up and down performances, and swapping combinations through selection.
Our lineout is consistently the best or in and around the best, year in year out. But not last night.
It wasn't great last week either. Camped on the Wallaby line at the end of the first half and then got picked off. Again: consistency.
Don’t know what you think, but seems to me that some locks are better on TH — BBBR, Romano, Thorn, Kruis, etc. and others LH — Whitelock, Barrett and Itoje. So ABs have Whitelock at TH, which isn’t his best side and Patty T, which despite being very powerful never seems to transfer it to scrum time. Add in a couple of novice props and one hooker who isn’t known for his scrummaging and you’ve got a fairly so so set up.
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@NTA said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@raznomore said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
The scrum got eaten yesterday. This is something we have been extremely strong in for a number of years now. So why have we suddenly gone backwards? I’m a fucken winger so can a prop explain it to me please. Redbeard was always good for that.
I think its down to your second row inconsistency. When you've got BBBR or Thorn pushing it is a markedly different prospect to Whitelock (who is no slouch) and almost anyone else available ATM. Throw in Whitelock having a couple of up and down performances, and swapping combinations through selection.
Our lineout is consistently the best or in and around the best, year in year out. But not last night.
It wasn't great last week either. Camped on the Wallaby line at the end of the first half and then got picked off. Again: consistency.
Don’t know what you think, but seems to me that some locks are better on TH — BBBR, Romano, Thorn, Kruis, etc. and others LH — Whitelock, Barrett and Itoje. So ABs have Whitelock at TH, which isn’t his best side and Patty T, which despite being very powerful never seems to transfer it to scrum time. Add in a couple of novice props and one hooker who isn’t known for his scrummaging and you’ve got a fairly so so set up.
Exactly - just like props are becoming specialists, locks have their role to play as well. If you've not played a lot of TH lock you don't have the same muscle memory and instinct for it. To be able to adjust angles and directions in the moment becomes problematic. In a split second you can find yourself in all sorts of trouble, and then people start thinking which leads to trouble
I go back (again) to the example of my club. Playing TH Prop in front of one guy who knew what he was doing was very different to playing in front of another guy who was bigger, stronger, and a better ball runner, but wasn't used to the position.
-
@Machpants said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Rapido said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Wow. Congratulations Argentina. Never would have picked this, with the covid impacted build up for them.
I think it was good for them. It was like aRWC build up, sad I mentioned pre match. A lot of time together, a couple of minutes games to warm up, then an ambush Vs ABs
Assuming all 12 of them made good recoveries. The NBA experience was the total opposite, the guys that caught it never quite recovered,Westbrook a great example. Wonder there is something in the way Covid hits your aerobic/aerobic efforts.
@voodoo said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Machpants said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Rapido said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Wow. Congratulations Argentina. Never would have picked this, with the covid impacted build up for them.
I think it was good for them. It was like aRWC build up, sad I mentioned pre match. A lot of time together, a couple of minutes games to warm up, then an ambush Vs ABs
Assuming all 12 of them made good recoveries. The NBA experience was the total opposite, the guys that caught it never quite recovered,Westbrook a great example. Wonder there is something in the way Covid hits your aerobic/aerobic efforts.
Actually, fuck this. Calling Covid an advantage to them is a massive cop out (not saying anyone has actually said its the reason they won).
It was a huge disruption to them, their training and their prep. Conversely we had a fine prep, had well rested guys this week, and 2 massive mental reasons to get up having lost last week and having never lost to the steak-eaters.
-
all this talk of Hart and Mains, I reckon Fozzie got his hands on Mains gameplan from the 1995 RWC...pass it to #11
sadly 14 runs for 65m showed we didnt create the space for him to run with as well.
-
This reminds me of 1999 through 2003. When the "powder puff forwards" stereotype was accurate.
@Tim said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
This reminds me of 1999 through 2003. When the "powder puff forwards" stereotype was accurate.
Back then we were not at our best in Super Rugby too though, partly for that reason.
Now we carve up consistently in SR. NZ forwards seem strong enough in general.
I reckon a change of coaching staff and suddenly our "powder puff forwards" will be strangely able to do the business.
-
@Tim said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
This reminds me of 1999 through 2003. When the "powder puff forwards" stereotype was accurate.
Back then we were not at our best in Super Rugby too though, partly for that reason.
Now we carve up consistently in SR. NZ forwards seem strong enough in general.
I reckon a change of coaching staff and suddenly our "powder puff forwards" will be strangely able to do the business.
-
Seriously we have 23 players capable of winning consistently,
FFS give them a go too decent game plan and a back up plan if things go pear shaped with the main plan.
Instill some passion and a direction they believe in and we dominate.
Summed up find some coaches who can get those things done. -
Seriously we have 23 players capable of winning consistently,
FFS give them a go too decent game plan and a back up plan if things go pear shaped with the main plan.
Instill some passion and a direction they believe in and we dominate.
Summed up find some coaches who can get those things done.@Chris said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Seriously we have 23 players capable of winning consistently,
FFS give them a go too decent game plan and a back up plan if things go pear shaped with the main plan.
Instill some passion and a direction they believe in and we dominate.
Summed up find some coaches who can get those things done.you're clearly not qualified to select coaches, you make too much sense.
nothing about coaching teams or powerpoints?
-
@Chris said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Seriously we have 23 players capable of winning consistently,
FFS give them a go too decent game plan and a back up plan if things go pear shaped with the main plan.
Instill some passion and a direction they believe in and we dominate.
Summed up find some coaches who can get those things done.you're clearly not qualified to select coaches, you make too much sense.
nothing about coaching teams or powerpoints?
@nzzp said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Chris said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Seriously we have 23 players capable of winning consistently,
FFS give them a go too decent game plan and a back up plan if things go pear shaped with the main plan.
Instill some passion and a direction they believe in and we dominate.
Summed up find some coaches who can get those things done.you're clearly not qualified to select coaches, you make too much sense.
nothing about coaching teams or powerpoints?
Hahaha seems simple to me
Fuck the power points. -
@nzzp said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Chris said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Seriously we have 23 players capable of winning consistently,
FFS give them a go too decent game plan and a back up plan if things go pear shaped with the main plan.
Instill some passion and a direction they believe in and we dominate.
Summed up find some coaches who can get those things done.you're clearly not qualified to select coaches, you make too much sense.
nothing about coaching teams or powerpoints?
Hahaha seems simple to me
Fuck the power points.
