Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final
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@chris-b said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@mn5 I think Mitchell is a better batsman than Colin and I don't expect our 5th seamer to play a defining role.
If we need a 5th seamer we're probably going to need an extra/better batsman more.
Neither exactly strike me as world beaters and what you’re saying has merit but what flips it for me is the experience CDGH brings ( although he might not play if they select Patel )
@mn5 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@chris-b said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@mn5 I think Mitchell is a better batsman than Colin and I don't expect our 5th seamer to play a defining role.
If we need a 5th seamer we're probably going to need an extra/better batsman more.
Neither exactly strike me as world beaters and what you’re saying has merit but what flips it for me is the experience CDGH brings ( although he might not play if they select Patel )
I'm not too bothered about it. I'd just think the batting allrounder is likely to be more use than the bowling allrounder - if you characterize them like that. I also have a memory of CdG's batting being pretty woeful in the CWC Final, when a slightly bigger and more fluent innings would have won it. On the other hand, his bowling was good.
We'll see. I won't be amazed to see both CdG and Patel play at the expense of one of our seamers - and Stead even signaled this possibility on 3 News last night.
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@godder From an Indian perspective, I'd love to see NZ pick CDG ahead of Patel or Ravindra.
@newsjunkie said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@godder From an Indian perspective, I'd love to see NZ pick CDG ahead of Patel or Ravindra.
Who are you picking for your team newsjunkie?
I'd be pretty happy to see Jadeja sitting in the stands. Big match player!
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@mn5 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@chris-b said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@mn5 I think Mitchell is a better batsman than Colin and I don't expect our 5th seamer to play a defining role.
If we need a 5th seamer we're probably going to need an extra/better batsman more.
Neither exactly strike me as world beaters and what you’re saying has merit but what flips it for me is the experience CDGH brings ( although he might not play if they select Patel )
I'm not too bothered about it. I'd just think the batting allrounder is likely to be more use than the bowling allrounder - if you characterize them like that. I also have a memory of CdG's batting being pretty woeful in the CWC Final, when a slightly bigger and more fluent innings would have won it. On the other hand, his bowling was good.
We'll see. I won't be amazed to see both CdG and Patel play at the expense of one of our seamers - and Stead even signaled this possibility on 3 News last night.
@chris-b said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@mn5 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@chris-b said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@mn5 I think Mitchell is a better batsman than Colin and I don't expect our 5th seamer to play a defining role.
If we need a 5th seamer we're probably going to need an extra/better batsman more.
Neither exactly strike me as world beaters and what you’re saying has merit but what flips it for me is the experience CDGH brings ( although he might not play if they select Patel )
I'm not too bothered about it. I'd just think the batting allrounder is likely to be more use than the bowling allrounder - if you characterize them like that. I also have a memory of CdG's batting being pretty woeful in the CWC Final, when a slightly bigger and more fluent innings would have won it. On the other hand, his bowling was good.
We'll see. I won't be amazed to see both CdG and Patel play at the expense of one of our seamers - and Stead even signaled this possibility on 3 News last night.
We have 10 world class players, I'd be seriously passed off if they left one of them out.
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@mn5 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@chris-b said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@mn5 I think Mitchell is a better batsman than Colin and I don't expect our 5th seamer to play a defining role.
If we need a 5th seamer we're probably going to need an extra/better batsman more.
Neither exactly strike me as world beaters and what you’re saying has merit but what flips it for me is the experience CDGH brings ( although he might not play if they select Patel )
I'm not too bothered about it. I'd just think the batting allrounder is likely to be more use than the bowling allrounder - if you characterize them like that. I also have a memory of CdG's batting being pretty woeful in the CWC Final, when a slightly bigger and more fluent innings would have won it. On the other hand, his bowling was good.
We'll see. I won't be amazed to see both CdG and Patel play at the expense of one of our seamers - and Stead even signaled this possibility on 3 News last night.
@chris-b said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@mn5 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@chris-b said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@mn5 I think Mitchell is a better batsman than Colin and I don't expect our 5th seamer to play a defining role.
If we need a 5th seamer we're probably going to need an extra/better batsman more.
Neither exactly strike me as world beaters and what you’re saying has merit but what flips it for me is the experience CDGH brings ( although he might not play if they select Patel )
I'm not too bothered about it. I'd just think the batting allrounder is likely to be more use than the bowling allrounder - if you characterize them like that. I also have a memory of CdG's batting being pretty woeful in the CWC Final, when a slightly bigger and more fluent innings would have won it. On the other hand, his bowling was good.
We'll see. I won't be amazed to see both CdG and Patel play at the expense of one of our seamers - and Stead even signaled this possibility on 3 News last night.
Me neither. It’s a pretty silly argument really all things considered, It’s not like we’re comparing Gary Sobers and Imran Khan after all.
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@chris-b said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@mn5 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@chris-b said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@mn5 I think Mitchell is a better batsman than Colin and I don't expect our 5th seamer to play a defining role.
If we need a 5th seamer we're probably going to need an extra/better batsman more.
Neither exactly strike me as world beaters and what you’re saying has merit but what flips it for me is the experience CDGH brings ( although he might not play if they select Patel )
I'm not too bothered about it. I'd just think the batting allrounder is likely to be more use than the bowling allrounder - if you characterize them like that. I also have a memory of CdG's batting being pretty woeful in the CWC Final, when a slightly bigger and more fluent innings would have won it. On the other hand, his bowling was good.
We'll see. I won't be amazed to see both CdG and Patel play at the expense of one of our seamers - and Stead even signaled this possibility on 3 News last night.
We have 10 world class players, I'd be seriously passed off if they left one of them out.
@no-quarter Yeah - It's why I'll be pretty happy if they decide the pitch doesn't warrant playing a spinner.
But, if Ajaz plays - then I'm not comfortable with a tail that begins with Kyle at 7. And I wonder about the merits of playing four specialists seamers - and a spinner - and just five specialist batsmen. It's unbalanced.
To counter Te Waio, we're going to have Cully at centre trying to fit everyone in.
The more I think about it - the more I'm leaning towards CdG plays regardless. :astonished_face:
Edit: MN5 - if that happens, then I'm much happier with Colin than Mtch Jr., because he's a significantly better 4th seamer.
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@no-quarter Yeah - It's why I'll be pretty happy if they decide the pitch doesn't warrant playing a spinner.
But, if Ajaz plays - then I'm not comfortable with a tail that begins with Kyle at 7. And I wonder about the merits of playing four specialists seamers - and a spinner - and just five specialist batsmen. It's unbalanced.
To counter Te Waio, we're going to have Cully at centre trying to fit everyone in.
The more I think about it - the more I'm leaning towards CdG plays regardless. :astonished_face:
Edit: MN5 - if that happens, then I'm much happier with Colin than Mtch Jr., because he's a significantly better 4th seamer.
@chris-b said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@no-quarter Yeah - It's why I'll be pretty happy if they decide the pitch doesn't warrant playing a spinner.
But, if Ajaz plays - then I'm not comfortable with a tail that begins with Kyle at 7. And I wonder about the merits of playing four specialists seamers - and a spinner - and just five specialist batsmen. It's unbalanced.
To counter Te Waio, we're going to have Cully at centre trying to fit everyone in.
The more I think about it - the more I'm leaning towards CdG plays regardless. :astonished_face:
Edit: MN5 - if that happens, then I'm much happier with Colin than Mtch Jr., because he's a significantly better 4th seamer.
Well you’ve certainly changed your tune since yesterday
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I can't see the alternative dimension where removing Jamieson or Wagner is balanced out by Patel and CDG. It just doesn't work.
I can see adding a spinner to the arsenal as we need to take 20 wickets.
I can see adding CDG to the four quicks to help with rest and rotation and give the last bat some support. -
I can't see the alternative dimension where removing Jamieson or Wagner is balanced out by Patel and CDG. It just doesn't work.
I can see adding a spinner to the arsenal as we need to take 20 wickets.
I can see adding CDG to the four quicks to help with rest and rotation and give the last bat some support.@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
I can't see the alternative dimension where removing Jamieson or Wagner is balanced out by Patel and CDG. It just doesn't work.
I can see adding a spinner to the arsenal as we need to take 20 wickets.
I can see adding CDG to the four quicks to help with rest and rotation and give the last bat some support.The thought of either of them not playing absolutely repulses me.
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I found this a good read as the countdown continues, supposedly we were a whingeing D grade australia..interesting point of view
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I can't see the alternative dimension where removing Jamieson or Wagner is balanced out by Patel and CDG. It just doesn't work.
I can see adding a spinner to the arsenal as we need to take 20 wickets.
I can see adding CDG to the four quicks to help with rest and rotation and give the last bat some support.@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
I can't see the alternative dimension where removing Jamieson or Wagner is balanced out by Patel and CDG. It just doesn't work.
I can see adding a spinner to the arsenal as we need to take 20 wickets.
I can see adding CDG to the four quicks to help with rest and rotation and give the last bat some support.Actually, I think it would be Boult or Wagner.
I simply don't think we should play five specialist bowlers - so if Ajaz plays, it's got to be because they think he'll provide more value than one of of the four best seamers.
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@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
I can't see the alternative dimension where removing Jamieson or Wagner is balanced out by Patel and CDG. It just doesn't work.
I can see adding a spinner to the arsenal as we need to take 20 wickets.
I can see adding CDG to the four quicks to help with rest and rotation and give the last bat some support.Actually, I think it would be Boult or Wagner.
I simply don't think we should play five specialist bowlers - so if Ajaz plays, it's got to be because they think he'll provide more value than one of of the four best seamers.
@chris-b said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
I can't see the alternative dimension where removing Jamieson or Wagner is balanced out by Patel and CDG. It just doesn't work.
I can see adding a spinner to the arsenal as we need to take 20 wickets.
I can see adding CDG to the four quicks to help with rest and rotation and give the last bat some support.Actually, I think it would be Boult or Wagner.
I simply don't think we should play five specialist bowlers - so if Ajaz plays, it's got to be because they think he'll provide more value than one of of the four best seamers.
……and I still think that’s what Jamieson is. All this “all rounder” talk could do is place pressure which he doesn’t need.
As decent as Patel was I don’t see him usurping any of our four pacemen.
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I don't think CdG is the panacea that everyone thinks he is, in the 8 tests he's played outside NZ, he scored 303 runs at an average of 21.64 (only 1 not out: at Lords last test) which is almost 15 runs below his overall average.
His bowling is also not as flash away, bowled 217 ocers for 14 wickets @ 35.28 (about 3.5 runs higher than his home average) with a strike rate of 1 wicket every 93 balls) . Half his away wickets came on the Aussie Tour where IIRC some of them were basically obtained during aa search for quick declaration runs
Frankly he is exactly the sort of medium pacer that the Indians will feast upon and at the Rosebowl with a high probability that the pitch could be used for 6 days, and is usually offering significant turn by the 4th day, I just don't see a tangible benefit as a bowling option. Patel also has the benefit that he gets through his overs very quickly which is a PITA for batters to deal with. It's one of the reasons Ashwin and Jadeja are so scary - they motor through their overs and you've got very little time to take stock
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@chris-b said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
I can't see the alternative dimension where removing Jamieson or Wagner is balanced out by Patel and CDG. It just doesn't work.
I can see adding a spinner to the arsenal as we need to take 20 wickets.
I can see adding CDG to the four quicks to help with rest and rotation and give the last bat some support.Actually, I think it would be Boult or Wagner.
I simply don't think we should play five specialist bowlers - so if Ajaz plays, it's got to be because they think he'll provide more value than one of of the four best seamers.
……and I still think that’s what Jamieson is. All this “all rounder” talk could do is place pressure which he doesn’t need.
As decent as Patel was I don’t see him usurping any of our four pacemen.
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I don't think CdG is the panacea that everyone thinks he is, in the 8 tests he's played outside NZ, he scored 303 runs at an average of 21.64 (only 1 not out: at Lords last test) which is almost 15 runs below his overall average.
His bowling is also not as flash away, bowled 217 ocers for 14 wickets @ 35.28 (about 3.5 runs higher than his home average) with a strike rate of 1 wicket every 93 balls) . Half his away wickets came on the Aussie Tour where IIRC some of them were basically obtained during aa search for quick declaration runs
Frankly he is exactly the sort of medium pacer that the Indians will feast upon and at the Rosebowl with a high probability that the pitch could be used for 6 days, and is usually offering significant turn by the 4th day, I just don't see a tangible benefit as a bowling option. Patel also has the benefit that he gets through his overs very quickly which is a PITA for batters to deal with. It's one of the reasons Ashwin and Jadeja are so scary - they motor through their overs and you've got very little time to take stock
@synicbast I think Colin's bowling in English conditions should be useful. A decent chunk of his overseas overs must have been that horrible Australian tour.
I agree about his batting - he's bit suspect - but, he's significantly better than any of those below him.
We could - in fact - bat Blundell at 6, Watling at 7 and then Jamieson, Wagner, Southee, Boult.
If we knock the Indians over cheaply, that's enough bowling - and if we don't - play for a draw.
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@Chris-B that is my preference, it's either Blundell or CDG for mine. Patel hasn't done anywhere near enough to oust one of our four truly world class seamers. We have to go all in on our strength for this one, trying to shoehorn in a spinner with limited experience or success at this level would be a mistake.
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@newsjunkie said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@godder From an Indian perspective, I'd love to see NZ pick CDG ahead of Patel or Ravindra.
Who are you picking for your team newsjunkie?
I'd be pretty happy to see Jadeja sitting in the stands. Big match player!
@chris-b
Jadeja only sits if he's hurt.
I'm assuming/hoping Virat plays only 5 batsmen along with Ashwin and Jadeja, given the fact that Ashwin isn't injured and the # of leftys in the Kiwi XI.
Question is whether the Indian team play Mohammed Siraj or not - they may have to bench Shami to fit him in, which is very contrary to Virat's loyalty to 'senior' players.
Regardless, there's not much to worry about on the bowling front for India - they will be OK in spite of Virat's selection stupidity, and the outcome of this one-off test primarily rests on the competency of the batting unit. Which for an Indian fan that grew up on decades of Indian teams with cannon fodder for 3rd seamers, is....different.
For all of Shubman Gill's heroics in Australia, both him and Rohit Sharma have obvious weaknesses in their technique that really make it difficult to be optimistic about their chances in 'English' conditions. Gill is a #3 bat who converted to opener, in order to get into the national team. And as good as Che Pujara is, if he's having to deal with 10/2 in both innings, it just sets up the team to fail.
So not too worried about the bowlers, but just hoping that the openers surprise in a good way.
I expect India to have a different opening pair by the end of the 5 test series against England.
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I don't think CdG is the panacea that everyone thinks he is, in the 8 tests he's played outside NZ, he scored 303 runs at an average of 21.64 (only 1 not out: at Lords last test) which is almost 15 runs below his overall average.
His bowling is also not as flash away, bowled 217 ocers for 14 wickets @ 35.28 (about 3.5 runs higher than his home average) with a strike rate of 1 wicket every 93 balls) . Half his away wickets came on the Aussie Tour where IIRC some of them were basically obtained during aa search for quick declaration runs
Frankly he is exactly the sort of medium pacer that the Indians will feast upon and at the Rosebowl with a high probability that the pitch could be used for 6 days, and is usually offering significant turn by the 4th day, I just don't see a tangible benefit as a bowling option. Patel also has the benefit that he gets through his overs very quickly which is a PITA for batters to deal with. It's one of the reasons Ashwin and Jadeja are so scary - they motor through their overs and you've got very little time to take stock
@synicbast said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
I don't think CdG is the panacea that everyone thinks he is, in the 8 tests he's played outside NZ, he scored 303 runs at an average of 21.64 (only 1 not out: at Lords last test) which is almost 15 runs below his overall average.
His bowling is also not as flash away, bowled 217 ocers for 14 wickets @ 35.28 (about 3.5 runs higher than his home average) with a strike rate of 1 wicket every 93 balls) . Half his away wickets came on the Aussie Tour where IIRC some of them were basically obtained during aa search for quick declaration runsAll very well saying "away" from home but that makes his home record rather good and this is England, most likely to be more similar to our conditions. He has had one test in England and that was two weeks ago after a long lay off. So a bit hard to judge on that.
As @Chris-B says 3 away tests were Perth, Melb, Syd where he was unlikely to do well with the ball anyway. Then you have Columbo, Abu Dhabi and Dubai.I thought that general consensus was that he would go well in English conditions (bowling wise anyway)?
