Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final
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@synicbast said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
I don't think CdG is the panacea that everyone thinks he is, in the 8 tests he's played outside NZ, he scored 303 runs at an average of 21.64 (only 1 not out: at Lords last test) which is almost 15 runs below his overall average.
His bowling is also not as flash away, bowled 217 ocers for 14 wickets @ 35.28 (about 3.5 runs higher than his home average) with a strike rate of 1 wicket every 93 balls) . Half his away wickets came on the Aussie Tour where IIRC some of them were basically obtained during aa search for quick declaration runsAll very well saying "away" from home but that makes his home record rather good and this is England, most likely to be more similar to our conditions. He has had one test in England and that was two weeks ago after a long lay off. So a bit hard to judge on that.
As @Chris-B says 3 away tests were Perth, Melb, Syd where he was unlikely to do well with the ball anyway. Then you have Columbo, Abu Dhabi and Dubai.I thought that general consensus was that he would go well in English conditions (bowling wise anyway)?
@snowy said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@synicbast said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
I don't think CdG is the panacea that everyone thinks he is, in the 8 tests he's played outside NZ, he scored 303 runs at an average of 21.64 (only 1 not out: at Lords last test) which is almost 15 runs below his overall average.
His bowling is also not as flash away, bowled 217 ocers for 14 wickets @ 35.28 (about 3.5 runs higher than his home average) with a strike rate of 1 wicket every 93 balls) . Half his away wickets came on the Aussie Tour where IIRC some of them were basically obtained during aa search for quick declaration runsAll very well saying "away" from home but that makes his home record rather good and this is England, most likely to be more similar to our conditions. He has had one test in England and that was two weeks ago after a long lay off. So a bit hard to judge on that.
As @Chris-B says 3 away tests were Perth, Melb, Syd where he was unlikely to do well with the ball anyway. Then you have Columbo, Abu Dhabi and Dubai.I thought that general consensus was that he would go well in English conditions (bowling wise anyway)?
I don’t think anyone is saying CDGH is some kind of panacea, more a case of no one compelling enough to take his place, simple as that. We have enviable depth and absolute class players in the batting and bowling departments but our All Rounders are a bit ‘journeyman’ in comparison. Even shit teams like the Windies and Bangladesh have All Rounders better than we can muster.
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We need a weather correspondent in ol blighty.
I'm worried we're worried about a damp squib.
Anyone near this place they call Ageas? Preferably someone like Yanet :
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@snowy said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@synicbast said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
I don't think CdG is the panacea that everyone thinks he is, in the 8 tests he's played outside NZ, he scored 303 runs at an average of 21.64 (only 1 not out: at Lords last test) which is almost 15 runs below his overall average.
His bowling is also not as flash away, bowled 217 ocers for 14 wickets @ 35.28 (about 3.5 runs higher than his home average) with a strike rate of 1 wicket every 93 balls) . Half his away wickets came on the Aussie Tour where IIRC some of them were basically obtained during aa search for quick declaration runsAll very well saying "away" from home but that makes his home record rather good and this is England, most likely to be more similar to our conditions. He has had one test in England and that was two weeks ago after a long lay off. So a bit hard to judge on that.
As @Chris-B says 3 away tests were Perth, Melb, Syd where he was unlikely to do well with the ball anyway. Then you have Columbo, Abu Dhabi and Dubai.I thought that general consensus was that he would go well in English conditions (bowling wise anyway)?
I don’t think anyone is saying CDGH is some kind of panacea, more a case of no one compelling enough to take his place, simple as that. We have enviable depth and absolute class players in the batting and bowling departments but our All Rounders are a bit ‘journeyman’ in comparison. Even shit teams like the Windies and Bangladesh have All Rounders better than we can muster.
@mn5 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@snowy said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@synicbast said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
I don't think CdG is the panacea that everyone thinks he is, in the 8 tests he's played outside NZ, he scored 303 runs at an average of 21.64 (only 1 not out: at Lords last test) which is almost 15 runs below his overall average.
His bowling is also not as flash away, bowled 217 ocers for 14 wickets @ 35.28 (about 3.5 runs higher than his home average) with a strike rate of 1 wicket every 93 balls) . Half his away wickets came on the Aussie Tour where IIRC some of them were basically obtained during aa search for quick declaration runsAll very well saying "away" from home but that makes his home record rather good and this is England, most likely to be more similar to our conditions. He has had one test in England and that was two weeks ago after a long lay off. So a bit hard to judge on that.
As @Chris-B says 3 away tests were Perth, Melb, Syd where he was unlikely to do well with the ball anyway. Then you have Columbo, Abu Dhabi and Dubai.I thought that general consensus was that he would go well in English conditions (bowling wise anyway)?
There’s no one compelling enough to take his place, simple as that. We have enviable depth in batting and bowling but our All Rounders are a bit ‘journeyman’ in comparison.
When you consider the role of an allrounder and that the definition of a 'good' one is 30+ batting and -30 bowling they really are journeymen anyway.
It would be nice to have a 'good' one though. It is very early days for Jamieson but 47/15 has a lot of room for levelling out and still being world class.
When you look at the numbers Southee actually gets very close 28/17 is not to be sneezed at when you consider that Paddles was 27/22.
Vettori and Cairns were a little lucky in that the had opportunities to bat longer periods due to the quality up the order. Even then they only managed batting averages around 30.If you look right through the history of allrounders (1000 runs/100 wickets minimum) there are few players with a double digit spread of batting - bowling. Obviously the freaks of Kallis (22.7) and Sobers (23.75). Keith Miller had a spread of 14, Jadeja is on 11.8 and that is it.
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@majorrage said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@siam forget about play on Friday.
Incredibly humid at the moment, ball will swing.
Forecast isn't great at all for the weekend. Any play will be in rising steam. If that's the case maybe the Patel/CDG argument gets put aside and we back the bowlers and bolster the batting.
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@mn5 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@snowy said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@synicbast said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
I don't think CdG is the panacea that everyone thinks he is, in the 8 tests he's played outside NZ, he scored 303 runs at an average of 21.64 (only 1 not out: at Lords last test) which is almost 15 runs below his overall average.
His bowling is also not as flash away, bowled 217 ocers for 14 wickets @ 35.28 (about 3.5 runs higher than his home average) with a strike rate of 1 wicket every 93 balls) . Half his away wickets came on the Aussie Tour where IIRC some of them were basically obtained during aa search for quick declaration runsAll very well saying "away" from home but that makes his home record rather good and this is England, most likely to be more similar to our conditions. He has had one test in England and that was two weeks ago after a long lay off. So a bit hard to judge on that.
As @Chris-B says 3 away tests were Perth, Melb, Syd where he was unlikely to do well with the ball anyway. Then you have Columbo, Abu Dhabi and Dubai.I thought that general consensus was that he would go well in English conditions (bowling wise anyway)?
There’s no one compelling enough to take his place, simple as that. We have enviable depth in batting and bowling but our All Rounders are a bit ‘journeyman’ in comparison.
When you consider the role of an allrounder and that the definition of a 'good' one is 30+ batting and -30 bowling they really are journeymen anyway.
It would be nice to have a 'good' one though. It is very early days for Jamieson but 47/15 has a lot of room for levelling out and still being world class.
When you look at the numbers Southee actually gets very close 28/17 is not to be sneezed at when you consider that Paddles was 27/22.
Vettori and Cairns were a little lucky in that the had opportunities to bat longer periods due to the quality up the order. Even then they only managed batting averages around 30.If you look right through the history of allrounders (1000 runs/100 wickets minimum) there are few players with a double digit spread of batting - bowling. Obviously the freaks of Kallis (22.7) and Sobers (23.75). Keith Miller had a spread of 14, Jadeja is on 11.8 and that is it.
@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@mn5 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@snowy said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@synicbast said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
I don't think CdG is the panacea that everyone thinks he is, in the 8 tests he's played outside NZ, he scored 303 runs at an average of 21.64 (only 1 not out: at Lords last test) which is almost 15 runs below his overall average.
His bowling is also not as flash away, bowled 217 ocers for 14 wickets @ 35.28 (about 3.5 runs higher than his home average) with a strike rate of 1 wicket every 93 balls) . Half his away wickets came on the Aussie Tour where IIRC some of them were basically obtained during aa search for quick declaration runsAll very well saying "away" from home but that makes his home record rather good and this is England, most likely to be more similar to our conditions. He has had one test in England and that was two weeks ago after a long lay off. So a bit hard to judge on that.
As @Chris-B says 3 away tests were Perth, Melb, Syd where he was unlikely to do well with the ball anyway. Then you have Columbo, Abu Dhabi and Dubai.I thought that general consensus was that he would go well in English conditions (bowling wise anyway)?
There’s no one compelling enough to take his place, simple as that. We have enviable depth in batting and bowling but our All Rounders are a bit ‘journeyman’ in comparison.
When you consider the role of an allrounder and that the definition of a 'good' one is 30+ batting and -30 bowling they really are journeymen anyway.
It would be nice to have a 'good' one though. It is very early days for Jamieson but 47/15 has a lot of room for levelling out and still being world class.
When you look at the numbers Southee actually gets very close 28/17 is not to be sneezed at when you consider that Paddles was 27/22.
Vettori and Cairns were a little lucky in that the had opportunities to bat longer periods due to the quality up the order. Even then they only managed batting averages around 30.If you look right through the history of allrounders (1000 runs/100 wickets minimum) there are few players with a double digit spread of batting - bowling. Obviously the freaks of Kallis (22.7) and Sobers (23.75). Keith Miller had a spread of 14, Jadeja is on 11.8 and that is it.
You’re forgetting Imran.
At first class level Paddles was 31/18 so, as controversial as it may seem, it could be argued he underachieved a bit at test level !
Sounds like he absolutely kicked arse when he played in England.
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@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@mn5 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@snowy said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@synicbast said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
I don't think CdG is the panacea that everyone thinks he is, in the 8 tests he's played outside NZ, he scored 303 runs at an average of 21.64 (only 1 not out: at Lords last test) which is almost 15 runs below his overall average.
His bowling is also not as flash away, bowled 217 ocers for 14 wickets @ 35.28 (about 3.5 runs higher than his home average) with a strike rate of 1 wicket every 93 balls) . Half his away wickets came on the Aussie Tour where IIRC some of them were basically obtained during aa search for quick declaration runsAll very well saying "away" from home but that makes his home record rather good and this is England, most likely to be more similar to our conditions. He has had one test in England and that was two weeks ago after a long lay off. So a bit hard to judge on that.
As @Chris-B says 3 away tests were Perth, Melb, Syd where he was unlikely to do well with the ball anyway. Then you have Columbo, Abu Dhabi and Dubai.I thought that general consensus was that he would go well in English conditions (bowling wise anyway)?
There’s no one compelling enough to take his place, simple as that. We have enviable depth in batting and bowling but our All Rounders are a bit ‘journeyman’ in comparison.
When you consider the role of an allrounder and that the definition of a 'good' one is 30+ batting and -30 bowling they really are journeymen anyway.
It would be nice to have a 'good' one though. It is very early days for Jamieson but 47/15 has a lot of room for levelling out and still being world class.
When you look at the numbers Southee actually gets very close 28/17 is not to be sneezed at when you consider that Paddles was 27/22.
Vettori and Cairns were a little lucky in that the had opportunities to bat longer periods due to the quality up the order. Even then they only managed batting averages around 30.If you look right through the history of allrounders (1000 runs/100 wickets minimum) there are few players with a double digit spread of batting - bowling. Obviously the freaks of Kallis (22.7) and Sobers (23.75). Keith Miller had a spread of 14, Jadeja is on 11.8 and that is it.
You’re forgetting Imran.
At first class level Paddles was 31/18 so, as controversial as it may seem, it could be argued he underachieved a bit at test level !
Sounds like he absolutely kicked arse when he played in England.
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@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@mn5 Yes. Missed Imran at 14.9
Good catch
But at any rate players like him and the others you mentioned are once in a generation if that. With the strength our team has elsewhere it’d be a fucken massive ask to get anyone close to that quality.
Southee would be doing extremely well to get the average to 19-20, he isn’t in this conversation.
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Some interesting stuff looking at that allrounders list.
Only 16 players (1000/100) have a positive difference batt/bowl AND average over 30 with the bat.
Also only 16 average under 30 with the ball.Only 11 players fit the so called benchmark of 30+/ -30
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Some interesting stuff looking at that allrounders list.
Only 16 players (1000/100) have a positive difference batt/bowl AND average over 30 with the bat.
Also only 16 average under 30 with the ball.Only 11 players fit the so called benchmark of 30+/ -30
@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
Some interesting stuff looking at that allrounders list.
Only 16 players (1000/100) have a positive difference batt/bowl AND average over 30 with the bat.
Also only 16 average under 30 with the ball.> Only 11 players fit the so called benchmark of 30+/ -30
Off the top of my head….
My boy Cairnsy, Beefy, Imran, Miller, Shaun Pollock, jadeja, Holder, Kapil Dev…….
Tell me the rest.
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@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
Some interesting stuff looking at that allrounders list.
Only 16 players (1000/100) have a positive difference batt/bowl AND average over 30 with the bat.
Also only 16 average under 30 with the ball.> Only 11 players fit the so called benchmark of 30+/ -30
Off the top of my head….
My boy Cairnsy, Beefy, Imran, Miller, Shaun Pollock, jadeja, Holder, Kapil Dev…….
Tell me the rest.
@mn5 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
Some interesting stuff looking at that allrounders list.
Only 16 players (1000/100) have a positive difference batt/bowl AND average over 30 with the bat.
Also only 16 average under 30 with the ball.> Only 11 players fit the so called benchmark of 30+/ -30
Off the top of my head….
My boy Cairnsy, Beefy, Imran, Shaun Pollock, Sobers, jadeja, Holder, Kapil Dev…….
Tell me the rest.
Not Sobers (only 34 with the ball)
Miller, Goddard, Noble, Rhodes
Two of those way way before our time or historical stories. Miller and Goddard still get mentions from time to time.
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@mn5 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
Some interesting stuff looking at that allrounders list.
Only 16 players (1000/100) have a positive difference batt/bowl AND average over 30 with the bat.
Also only 16 average under 30 with the ball.> Only 11 players fit the so called benchmark of 30+/ -30
Off the top of my head….
My boy Cairnsy, Beefy, Imran, Shaun Pollock, Sobers, jadeja, Holder, Kapil Dev…….
Tell me the rest.
Not Sobers (only 34 with the ball)
Miller, Goddard, Noble, Rhodes
Two of those way way before our time or historical stories. Miller and Goddard still get mentions from time to time.
@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@mn5 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
Some interesting stuff looking at that allrounders list.
Only 16 players (1000/100) have a positive difference batt/bowl AND average over 30 with the bat.
Also only 16 average under 30 with the ball.> Only 11 players fit the so called benchmark of 30+/ -30
Off the top of my head….
My boy Cairnsy, Beefy, Imran, Shaun Pollock, Sobers, jadeja, Holder, Kapil Dev…….
Tell me the rest.
Not Sobers (only 34 with the ball)
Miller, Goddard, Noble, Rhodes
Some bloody great players on that list.
….and ( according to the fern at least ) Chris Cairns sneaks in as well
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@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@mn5 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
Some interesting stuff looking at that allrounders list.
Only 16 players (1000/100) have a positive difference batt/bowl AND average over 30 with the bat.
Also only 16 average under 30 with the ball.> Only 11 players fit the so called benchmark of 30+/ -30
Off the top of my head….
My boy Cairnsy, Beefy, Imran, Shaun Pollock, Sobers, jadeja, Holder, Kapil Dev…….
Tell me the rest.
Not Sobers (only 34 with the ball)
Miller, Goddard, Noble, Rhodes
Some bloody great players on that list.
….and ( according to the fern at least ) Chris Cairns sneaks in as well
@mn5 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@mn5 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
Some interesting stuff looking at that allrounders list.
Only 16 players (1000/100) have a positive difference batt/bowl AND average over 30 with the bat.
Also only 16 average under 30 with the ball.> Only 11 players fit the so called benchmark of 30+/ -30
Off the top of my head….
My boy Cairnsy, Beefy, Imran, Shaun Pollock, Sobers, jadeja, Holder, Kapil Dev…….
Tell me the rest.
Not Sobers (only 34 with the ball)
Miller, Goddard, Noble, Rhodes
Some bloody great players on that list.
….and ( according to the fern at least ) Chris Cairns sneaks in as well
Goes to show that the 30/30 standard is a pretty high bar though. Even 27/30 or 30/33 only captures a handful more.
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@mn5 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@mn5 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
Some interesting stuff looking at that allrounders list.
Only 16 players (1000/100) have a positive difference batt/bowl AND average over 30 with the bat.
Also only 16 average under 30 with the ball.> Only 11 players fit the so called benchmark of 30+/ -30
Off the top of my head….
My boy Cairnsy, Beefy, Imran, Shaun Pollock, Sobers, jadeja, Holder, Kapil Dev…….
Tell me the rest.
Not Sobers (only 34 with the ball)
Miller, Goddard, Noble, Rhodes
Some bloody great players on that list.
….and ( according to the fern at least ) Chris Cairns sneaks in as well
Goes to show that the 30/30 standard is a pretty high bar though. Even 27/30 or 30/33 only captures a handful more.
@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@mn5 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@mn5 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
Some interesting stuff looking at that allrounders list.
Only 16 players (1000/100) have a positive difference batt/bowl AND average over 30 with the bat.
Also only 16 average under 30 with the ball.> Only 11 players fit the so called benchmark of 30+/ -30
Off the top of my head….
My boy Cairnsy, Beefy, Imran, Shaun Pollock, Sobers, jadeja, Holder, Kapil Dev…….
Tell me the rest.
Not Sobers (only 34 with the ball)
Miller, Goddard, Noble, Rhodes
Some bloody great players on that list.
….and ( according to the fern at least ) Chris Cairns sneaks in as well
Goes to show that the 30/30 standard is a pretty high bar though. Even 27/30 or 30/33 only captures a handful more.
Some have periods where the averages are amazing, Botham at his peak had a bowling average under 20 and batting around 40. Think that’s was around 20 tests in.
Khan was one who got better, his batting average for his last few years was around 50 ( not overall just that period) -
@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@mn5 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@mn5 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
Some interesting stuff looking at that allrounders list.
Only 16 players (1000/100) have a positive difference batt/bowl AND average over 30 with the bat.
Also only 16 average under 30 with the ball.> Only 11 players fit the so called benchmark of 30+/ -30
Off the top of my head….
My boy Cairnsy, Beefy, Imran, Shaun Pollock, Sobers, jadeja, Holder, Kapil Dev…….
Tell me the rest.
Not Sobers (only 34 with the ball)
Miller, Goddard, Noble, Rhodes
Some bloody great players on that list.
….and ( according to the fern at least ) Chris Cairns sneaks in as well
Goes to show that the 30/30 standard is a pretty high bar though. Even 27/30 or 30/33 only captures a handful more.
Some have periods where the averages are amazing, Botham at his peak had a bowling average under 20 and batting around 40. Think that’s was around 20 tests in.
Khan was one who got better, his batting average for his last few years was around 50 ( not overall just that period)Hard not to go past Beefy as one of the few true best ever Allrounders.
Even though he fell away his test record is incredible.102 Tests
14 Test 100's (to put that into context only 3 black cap batsmen have score more)
33.54 Average383 Test wickets
28.40 Average, which is almost identical to Southee's
27 5wi hauls
4 10wm haulsA 100 and 5 wickets in an innings 5 times.
Vs India in 1980 he scored 114 and took 6/58 & 7/48
For good measure he took 120 catches as well.
Also according to Martin Crowe's time playing alongside him at Somerset in the 80's, a night on the piss and coming home at 6am didnt effect his performances either.
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@stockcar86 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
That's it, we're doomed.
Makes 2004 journos seem shy and bashful.
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India will be absolutely chomping at the bit to get stuck into us, they are a world class side with no obvious weaknesses. Their captain is also an absolute gun that does not take a backward step, hence them doing the Aussies in their own back yard. We have an amazing team but we are up against it here.
If both teams play to their potential it will be an absolute cracker. If we are even slightly off our game it could end in disaster very quickly.
Ashwin and Jadeja scare the shit out of me.
