All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nta you can't win turnovers with passive tackles
Agreed.
A good percentage of the turnovers in multi-phase D against Australia were just easy strips (I reference this morning's game at Twickenham) or knocks-on or intercepts. The rest were ruck turnovers against a side who can't cover their ball.
That is no preparation for a team like Ireland who were running with pace and purpose, and the ABs had no way to stop it because they couldn't get in at the ruck against a more accurate team. And they were doing it mostly inside their own 40.
Something something RWC2019SF?
@nta said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nta you can't win turnovers with passive tackles
Agreed.
A good percentage of the turnovers in multi-phase D against Australia were just easy strips (I reference this morning's game at Twickenham) or knocks-on or intercepts. The rest were ruck turnovers against a side who can't cover their ball.
That is no preparation for a team like Ireland who were running with pace and purpose, and the ABs had no way to stop it because they couldn't get in at the ruck against a more accurate team. And they were doing it mostly inside their own 40.
Something something RWC2019SF?
The Irish ball security was leagues ahead of ours.
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Geez I can't believe how overly critical people are on here. In a galaxy light years from here...
A team was kept together in isolation for a 15 match program all over the world and away from family and friends and after a challenging super program.
That team played most of their latest match without their top 9 10 and 12 and without their best loose forward and usual captain. They played an Irish team that was on fire and still hung in the game until a questionable call to kick and not scrum.
They could not shuffle players in and out and the coaches did their best to keep everyone involved and to build combinations and experience and try a few new things.
They even won some matches along the way and may have even broken World point and try scoring records and won the odd trophy.
But they could not keep the fans happy or combat their demand for heads to roll. They were consistent though having said the same things since before the first match.
Geez it is a tough world out there.
I am proud of the way they hung in there without a few key hands. Well played Ireland. You deserve more credit than the opposition demand scorn. -
Watched the game this afternoon.
First point to get out of the way: the bitching and fucking moaning from everyone. Pearce has the patience of a saint. I'd have been carding people left, right, and centre for some of that shit. Sexton was the worst (and yes Dane, he is a mouthy fluffybunny, you mouthy fluffybunny) but several on both sides weren't far behind.
The Ref: I saw a few things that went against the ABs early I thought were a bit rough but they didn't make a difference to the result IMHO; none of them were unrecoverable.
The game: Ireland won through intensity, accuracy, and cohesion. A lot of these guys have spent a lot of time together, and it shows.
The All Blacks' constant rotation shows in the lack of connection between a lot of players. Losing Beaugan early was a bit of a blow but all he'd done to that point was kick badly. Mo'unga continued the trend.
That was the story of the AB possession stats: kicking what little ball they had without purpose. The worst part was they'd do that around halfway, but inside their 22 they're taking dumb shit taps. Looked panicked and rudderless.
Some genuine stupidity in hitting Sexton late a couple of times, and TBH Blackadder was lucky not to escape harsher sanction; the ref was well within his right to explain to Whitelock that it was a clear professional foul and it had to stop, therefore yellow card was the lesson. There was a later one from Lomax on an Irish reserve which was just petty and stupid. Again: ref would have been well within his rights to go harder on that given repeat offences.
Foster must have a fucking airtight keg of powder in a secret volcano lair, that he's keeping dry for RWC2023, because the same basic, through-the-hands attack line happens again and again and again. No subtlety. No work off the ball. It is great when it is Aussie falling off tackles, making Akira Ioane look like a superstar, but looks utterly amateur when it is someone who doesn't miss very much.
The AB defence is built off waiting for a turnover (big de ja vu moment here as I type this), but they got fuck all in that department and so the rest of the plan - just score more points when the other side fuck up - fell to shit.
AB defence was outstanding in terms of tackle percentage BUT it was all down the wrong end. And add in that Ireland pick and choose their moment to go into contact that stands out, using their hands to create yards post-breakdown. The ruck is accurate and quick. The backline has bodies in motion, all players across the squad, with hands dropping the ball short and/or in behind to sweeping backline moves with varying depth, pace, and angle. Beautiful to watch, and similar to Scotland.
This isn't just the Wales-under-Gatland 2 dummy runners with a ball out the back that won a couple of 6N because NH sides didn't do back play back then. It is ambition and shows the work and planning to get that execution right when they're in their green zone - centre field - with what looks like no set ruck count like some over-engineered plans.
The Kiwi imports helped turn the screws. Lowe was great. The halfback was awesome. It shows the depth NZ is gifting to the world, but these guys played far better than their opposites.
Ringrose was the best on ground for me - always threatened, always hard to put away. Made the right decisions, stretched the defence.
But fucking hell their forwards put in some work. Utterly bitched the AB pack who looked like they'd just met in the carpark, and forgot to tell their backrow they were required for 80 minutes besides.
I'm not saying Whitelock and Retallick are a spent force, but you look at their effect on a game and think their best years are behind them besides pushing at scrum. Laulala is so hit and miss. Taylor is the guy you want to grind out the first 60 and then bring Coles on to be a niggly fluffybunny for 20. Moody needs to improve.
To me it was a great game to watch, and the right team won by at least the correct margin.
@nta said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster must have a fucking airtight keg of powder in a secret volcano lair, that he's keeping dry for RWC2023, because the same basic, through-the-hands attack line happens again and again and again. No subtlety. No work off the ball. It is great when it is Aussie falling off tackles, making Akira Ioane look like a superstar, but looks utterly amateur when it is someone who doesn't miss very much.
The AB defence is built off waiting for a turnover (big de ja vu moment here as I type this), but they got fuck all in that department and so the rest of the plan - just score more points when the other side fuck up - fell to shit.They put it the 'playing off nine to suck in rush defences until you've earned the right to go wide' powder away after Lions #2. They must've lost the key, cos we could've used it quite a few times since!
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew
Players of a known quantity are underperforming, new players don't cut the mustard. That's on the coach.Or the players just aren't there? The player pool at 9 isn't exactly overflowing and that's not down to Foster
Except it is. Robertson can win Super Trophies with Drummond -- who isn't even in the reckoning for the ABs. Brad Weber can play some amazing rugby, with the right game plan. (I loathe TJP with a passion, and can't way to see the back of him, but that's more about what a tool he is as a person.)
Robertson's hardly a lone exception. We can all cite coaches who just seem to get the best out of players. And other coaches who turn gold into, um, not gold.
It's no good saying that NZ isn't producing the quality of players we used to, when our Super and provincial teams are streaks ahead of everyone else. And when our rejects are starting players for other countries.
Our game plan seems to be, kick it as soon as you get it except in their 22, and hope to score from individual brilliance. It's a shit plan, and it deserves what it got last night. It isn't like Beauden was carving up when he was on, he kicked it even more than Mo'unga. It has to be the plan, not the players.
@chester-draws said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew
Players of a known quantity are underperforming, new players don't cut the mustard. That's on the coach.Or the players just aren't there? The player pool at 9 isn't exactly overflowing and that's not down to Foster
Except it is. Robertson can win Super Trophies with Drummond -- who isn't even in the reckoning for the ABs.
That wasn't the point I was making. I'm not sure your argument that the player pool (and how it is developed) doesn't matter and holds water. It's not like a journeyman 10 would be a world-beater under the right AB coach. We are short of skilled players in a number of positions
Robertson's hardly a lone exception. We can all cite coaches who just seem to get the best out of players. And other coaches who turn gold into, um, not gold.
So any half-decent coach other than Foster would turn things around? I suspect the problems are way deeper than that.
It's no good saying that NZ isn't producing the quality of players we used to, when our Super and provincial teams are streaks ahead of everyone else.
Not sure we are not streaks ahead at all - otherwise our Super Rugby teams would hammer the opposition every week - and that may be part of the problem. We're not awash with McCaw's, Carter's, Nonu's & Smith's - even if we had all these great coaches the NZRFU have rejected who can turn average players into matchwinners.
And when our rejects are starting players for other countries.
The same can be said for Sth Africa, Australia and Fiji so I'm not sure I get your point.
Our game plan seems to be, kick it as soon as you get it except in their 22, and hope to score from individual brilliance. It's a shit plan, and it deserves what it got last night. It isn't like Beauden was carving up when he was on, he kicked it even more than Mo'unga. It has to be the plan, not the players.
I agree with you on the game plan (assuming there is actually a plan...), but don't you think the players have some responsibility in executing the plan? Being disciplined enough not to give away dumb penalties? Senior players stepping up when things aren't working?
It's pretty clear something has gone badly wrong since 2016/17 (the seeds may have been sown earlier) and I don't think that's all down to Foster. The NZRFU needs to take a good hard look at what's going on, identify the problems, find fixes and apply them
Maybe Robertson or another coach will become a messiah who'll solve all the problems, but I have my doubts and don't want to be hearing the same arguments about Robertson in 2 years time.
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Geez I can't believe how overly critical people are on here. In a galaxy light years from here...
A team was kept together in isolation for a 15 match program all over the world and away from family and friends and after a challenging super program.
That team played most of their latest match without their top 9 10 and 12 and without their best loose forward and usual captain. They played an Irish team that was on fire and still hung in the game until a questionable call to kick and not scrum.
They could not shuffle players in and out and the coaches did their best to keep everyone involved and to build combinations and experience and try a few new things.
They even won some matches along the way and may have even broken World point and try scoring records and won the odd trophy.
But they could not keep the fans happy or combat their demand for heads to roll. They were consistent though having said the same things since before the first match.
Geez it is a tough world out there.
I am proud of the way they hung in there without a few key hands. Well played Ireland. You deserve more credit than the opposition demand scorn.@arhs said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
They even won some matches along the way and may have even broken World point and try scoring records and won the odd trophy.
Oh wow! World try scoring records against Tonga and Fiji B! Damn, what are people complaining about?
Three loses in the last five games against a team who had never beaten us until 2016 - what is anyone complaining about?
The same game plan against every team we play - great!
No rush defence of our own? The great results make that a non-issue.
A guy who punches out men and a women outside bars? Straight back into the team and embraced without any consequences. He's never fired a shot at test level but he's part of the family, one of the good guys. Only some kind of hysteric would claim that the head coach had any choice in that decision!
You'd have to be some kind of real weirdo to think that a good coach could make major changes and beat teams with big forward packs after two years at the helm. No coach has ever done a turn around before!
I'm just sick of those ungrateful fans that expect NZ to beat Ireland.
Of all the coaches to become a sycophant to, you chose Ian Foster? A guy who has never won anything?
Don't talk down to this forum with pompous bullshit when we can all see what's in front of our eyes.
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@arhs said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
the coaches did their best to keep everyone involved and to build combinations
That... is not in any way true. It has been rotation city.
And why leave guys on the bench? Fresh legs. Change the attack pattern. Give Christie a shot.
Losses will happen, sure, but the way in which losses are happening illustrate something isn't quite right, and hasn't been for some time.
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@arhs said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
the coaches did their best to keep everyone involved and to build combinations
That... is not in any way true. It has been rotation city.
And why leave guys on the bench? Fresh legs. Change the attack pattern. Give Christie a shot.
Losses will happen, sure, but the way in which losses are happening illustrate something isn't quite right, and hasn't been for some time.
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@arhs said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
the coaches did their best to keep everyone involved and to build combinations
That... is not in any way true. It has been rotation city.
And why leave guys on the bench? Fresh legs. Change the attack pattern. Give Christie a shot.
Losses will happen, sure, but the way in which losses are happening illustrate something isn't quite right, and hasn't been for some time.
@nta said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@arhs said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
the coaches did their best to keep everyone involved and to build combinations
That... is not in any way true. It has been rotation city.
And why leave guys on the bench? Fresh legs. Change the attack pattern. Give Christie a shot.
Losses will happen, sure, but the way in which losses are happening illustrate something isn't quite right, and hasn't been for some time.
It's been happening since the 2019 SF. No plan B when things slide sideways
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@arhs said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
They even won some matches along the way and may have even broken World point and try scoring records and won the odd trophy.
Oh wow! World try scoring records against Tonga and Fiji B! Damn, what are people complaining about?
Three loses in the last five games against a team who had never beaten us until 2016 - what is anyone complaining about?
The same game plan against every team we play - great!
No rush defence of our own? The great results make that a non-issue.
A guy who punches out men and a women outside bars? Straight back into the team and embraced without any consequences. He's never fired a shot at test level but he's part of the family, one of the good guys. Only some kind of hysteric would claim that the head coach had any choice in that decision!
You'd have to be some kind of real weirdo to think that a good coach could make major changes and beat teams with big forward packs after two years at the helm. No coach has ever done a turn around before!
I'm just sick of those ungrateful fans that expect NZ to beat Ireland.
Of all the coaches to become a sycophant to, you chose Ian Foster? A guy who has never won anything?
Don't talk down to this forum with pompous bullshit when we can all see what's in front of our eyes.
@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
A guy who punches out men and a women outside bars? Straight back into the team and embraced without any consequences. He's never fired a shot at test level but he's part of the family, one of the good guys. Only some kind of hysteric would claim that the head coach had any choice in that decision!
To be fair, Robertson didn't kick Sevu Reece out of the Crusaders either when he assaulted a woman, but I take your point - so much for the "no dickheads" policy
So who sets the rules on managing this sort of thing in NZ rugby? Is it down to coaches like Foster and Robertson to decide or should there be some national policy at the top levels?
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@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
A guy who punches out men and a women outside bars? Straight back into the team and embraced without any consequences. He's never fired a shot at test level but he's part of the family, one of the good guys. Only some kind of hysteric would claim that the head coach had any choice in that decision!
To be fair, Robertson didn't kick Sevu Reece out of the Crusaders either when he assaulted a woman, but I take your point - so much for the "no dickheads" policy
So who sets the rules on managing this sort of thing in NZ rugby? Is it down to coaches like Foster and Robertson to decide or should there be some national policy at the top levels?
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@nta TJP and Codie should’ve been subbed early in the 2nd half. That is on the coaches
@act-crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nta TJP and Codie should’ve been subbed early in the 2nd half. That is on the coaches
Another bugbear of mine. Our bench players often have little impact when they come on compared to the past.
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@act-crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nta TJP and Codie should’ve been subbed early in the 2nd half. That is on the coaches
Another bugbear of mine. Our bench players often have little impact when they come on compared to the past.
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@act-crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nta TJP and Codie should’ve been subbed early in the 2nd half. That is on the coaches
Another bugbear of mine. Our bench players often have little impact when they come on compared to the past.
Well two of them didn't get on the field.....
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@victor-meldrew Code of Conduct needs updating?
@nta said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew Code of Conduct needs updating?
Yeah. I just think it sets a bad example and a symptom of something poss. not quite right in NZ rugby.
There's a balance to be struck between someone going thru a rough time which might spill into bad behaviour (Jimmy Cowan or Zac Guildford) and out and out assault.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@act-crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nta TJP and Codie should’ve been subbed early in the 2nd half. That is on the coaches
Another bugbear of mine. Our bench players often have little impact when they come on compared to the past.
Well two of them didn't get on the field.....
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@act-crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nta TJP and Codie should’ve been subbed early in the 2nd half. That is on the coaches
Another bugbear of mine. Our bench players often have little impact when they come on compared to the past.
Well two of them didn't get on the field.....
Exactly.
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@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
A guy who punches out men and a women outside bars? Straight back into the team and embraced without any consequences. He's never fired a shot at test level but he's part of the family, one of the good guys. Only some kind of hysteric would claim that the head coach had any choice in that decision!
To be fair, Robertson didn't kick Sevu Reece out of the Crusaders either when he assaulted a woman, but I take your point - so much for the "no dickheads" policy
So who sets the rules on managing this sort of thing in NZ rugby? Is it down to coaches like Foster and Robertson to decide or should there be some national policy at the top levels?
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
A guy who punches out men and a women outside bars? Straight back into the team and embraced without any consequences. He's never fired a shot at test level but he's part of the family, one of the good guys. Only some kind of hysteric would claim that the head coach had any choice in that decision!
To be fair, Robertson didn't kick Sevu Reece out of the Crusaders either when he assaulted a woman, but I take your point - so much for the "no dickheads" policy
So who sets the rules on managing this sort of thing in NZ rugby? Is it down to coaches like Foster and Robertson to decide or should there be some national policy at the top levels?
Reece was with Waikato at the time, and had his Irish contract cancelled. Crusaders did give him a life line, but the All Blacks didn't pick him up immediately that year!
He was shit in the WC, but at least that was after a year of super rugby first.
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@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
A guy who punches out men and a women outside bars? Straight back into the team and embraced without any consequences. He's never fired a shot at test level but he's part of the family, one of the good guys. Only some kind of hysteric would claim that the head coach had any choice in that decision!
To be fair, Robertson didn't kick Sevu Reece out of the Crusaders either when he assaulted a woman, but I take your point - so much for the "no dickheads" policy
So who sets the rules on managing this sort of thing in NZ rugby? Is it down to coaches like Foster and Robertson to decide or should there be some national policy at the top levels?
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
A guy who punches out men and a women outside bars? Straight back into the team and embraced without any consequences. He's never fired a shot at test level but he's part of the family, one of the good guys. Only some kind of hysteric would claim that the head coach had any choice in that decision!
To be fair, Robertson didn't kick Sevu Reece out of the Crusaders either when he assaulted a woman, but I take your point - so much for the "no dickheads" policy
So who sets the rules on managing this sort of thing in NZ rugby? Is it down to coaches like Foster and Robertson to decide or should there be some national policy at the top levels?
Reece wasn't in the Crusaders when that happened they picked up after that incident.Pretty hard for Robertson to throw the guy out when he wasn't there in the first place.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
A guy who punches out men and a women outside bars? Straight back into the team and embraced without any consequences. He's never fired a shot at test level but he's part of the family, one of the good guys. Only some kind of hysteric would claim that the head coach had any choice in that decision!
To be fair, Robertson didn't kick Sevu Reece out of the Crusaders either when he assaulted a woman, but I take your point - so much for the "no dickheads" policy
So who sets the rules on managing this sort of thing in NZ rugby? Is it down to coaches like Foster and Robertson to decide or should there be some national policy at the top levels?
Reece wasn't in the Crusaders when that happened they picked up after that incident.Pretty hard for Robertson to throw the guy out when he wasn't there in the first place.
True. My bad.
But Robertson picked him when others rejected him, saying he needed a second chance. Fair enough, but there needs to be some consistency in selecting someone who assaults woman.
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True. My bad.
But Robertson picked him when others rejected him, saying he needed a second chance. Fair enough, but there needs to be some consistency in selecting someone who assaults woman.
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@victor-meldrew Well maybe not in the same fucking season for a start
@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew Well maybe not in the same fucking season for a start
I just wouldn't have Frizzell anywhere near an AB team - same season or not.
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Some positives to note:
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Scrum has been stable, sometimes destructive.
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Lineout has been better than in RC, but still not near the levels it was 3-4 years ago when it was best in the world. Read is a big loss in this regard - he was a world class lineout operator.
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Papali'i has played some good rugby and deserves his place.
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The legend of Samisoni has grown in his absence from the team. He does look a real gem though.
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I thought there were times when ABs actually had the ball and didn't kick it away that they looked threatening. This was especially true when punching up around the fringes with runners hitting the line at pace.
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Discipline - ABs gave Ireland too many opportunities to kick for territory or posts as a result of gifting penalties. Was this a result of panicking? Maybe. But cut the penalties by even 25% and Ireland are playing more from the middle third of the pitch.
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ABs still have more players capable of producing moments of quality than other teams. Yes, it is individual moments, but imagine this place if that was absent too
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ABs are missing Aaron Smith and Sam Cane. Two leaders. You still have them to come back. It won't solve all the issues that have been discussed above, but they will add some steel and finesse to the team.
Issues:
The lack of physicality has been spoken of as nauseum above. I don't think the ABs lack physical players, but there appears to the outside eye (mine) to be a lack of hunger for the dirty work. Clearouts, pick and gos, trucking the ball up into contact whilst seeking to dominate the tackler(s). Sucking defences in. Rugby isn't all about offloads, tackle busts and sexy tries scored within 4 phases
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Kicking game (or lack thereof). ABs used to have one of the most aggressive kicking games around. It forced the opposition to make decisions and usually resulted in territorial gains. TJ didn't clear well yesterday when under pressure. It invited more pressure. Barrett/Mo'unga and J Barrett didn't clear well either. And there were several opportunities for a 50:22 and nobody even attempted it. Ireland weren't placed under much pressure. When they were, they were as susceptible as the ABs to cracking.
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Backline attack - it is rare to see an AB backline look so disjointed. Surprise? In some ways no. Barrett went off injured which left TJ with Mo'unga (no real history of playing together and TJ's passing doesn't suit Mo'unga's style). ALB was lost which left Havilii with Mo'unga inside and Rieko Ioane outside. That's a 10/12/13 with no experience of playing together in a match that was crying out for cohesive combinations. I thought the back 3 went ok in the circumstances. Havilii set up the Jordan break with a lovely pass over the top prior to the chip and chase. He picked the wrong option after the Savea break when he tried a similar pass that Lowe brilliantly read. A short pop to TJ was probably the better option as there was support on hand.
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