All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour
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@mrdenmore That's not analysis. That's just an unproven and lazy assumption.
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mrdenmore That's not analysis. That's just an unproven and lazy assumption.
An assumption that marries well with the evidence. Players playing out of position. A coaching group talking about lessons that never materialise.
Assisted in no small measure by those holding a flame for certain players. Almost anyone with two eyes can see Ardie shirks the hard work come ruck time - that's been a feature of his entire career. And DMac is a fucking liability.
I could go on, but the article has already been written.
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@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mrdenmore That's not analysis. That's just an unproven and lazy assumption.
An assumption that marries well with the evidence. Players playing out of position. A coaching group talking about lessons that never materialise.
Assisted in no small measure by those holding a flame for certain players. Almost anyone with two eyes can see Ardie shirks the hard work come ruck time - that's been a feature of his entire career. And DMac is a fucking liability.
I could go on, but the article has already been written.
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Assisted in no small measure by those holding a flame for certain players.
Yeah, Fozzie has a hard on for Ardie.
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This from the poster Highlander on Roar is one of the best analyses I’ve seen of what’s ailing the ABs.
“Somewhere deep in the heart of this coaching group and squad of players is a belief that they can run and outscore anyone, no matter the circumstances, no matter what the opposition bring.
“It’s misguided, it’s entitled and it’s just downright wrong. We don’t need to follow the years old rules of earning the right to play, we are different.”
@mrdenmore said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
This from the poster Highlander on Roar is one of the best analyses I’ve seen of what’s ailing the ABs.
“Somewhere deep in the heart of this coaching group and squad of players is a belief that they can run and outscore anyone, no matter the circumstances, no matter what the opposition bring.
“It’s misguided, it’s entitled and it’s just downright wrong. We don’t need to follow the years old rules of earning the right to play, we are different.”
Well I don't think we are fitter than other top teams now in the last 20 minutes. We don't tire them out any more.
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@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mrdenmore That's not analysis. That's just an unproven and lazy assumption.
Which is perfectly in synch with what I saw.
I think one of the worst things that happened to us was the score that had us in front at half time. Gave us belief as per above, when what was needed was something else.
Probably not something we were capable of to be honest.
@majorrage said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mrdenmore That's not analysis. That's just an unproven and lazy assumption.
Which is perfectly in synch with what I saw.
I think one of the worst things that happened to us was the score that had us in front at half time. Gave us belief as per above, when what was needed was something else.
Probably not something we were capable of to be honest.
Isn't there a stat about how often the ABs lose when ahead at halftime? From memory it is very unlikely but perhaps it is changing recently.
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So that's three losses in the last five games against Ireland? We really love trying the same shit and hoping for a different result.
@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
So that's three losses in the last five games against Ireland? We really love trying the same shit and hoping for a different result.
Dunno if I've been booboo'ed but I don't think think this was a case of same shit different day, as this was a different level from the Paddies.
They completely dominated, where as I don't think they did in Chicago or 2018.
I've got a rant brewing about tight forwards and coaching (given I'm a "I want Foster to succeed " guy), but I need to articulate it upside mah head first
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@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
So that's three losses in the last five games against Ireland? We really love trying the same shit and hoping for a different result.
Dunno if I've been booboo'ed but I don't think think this was a case of same shit different day, as this was a different level from the Paddies.
They completely dominated, where as I don't think they did in Chicago or 2018.
I've got a rant brewing about tight forwards and coaching (given I'm a "I want Foster to succeed " guy), but I need to articulate it upside mah head first
@booboo said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
So that's three losses in the last five games against Ireland? We really love trying the same shit and hoping for a different result.
Dunno if I've been booboo'ed but I don't think think this was a case of same shit different day, as this was a different level from the Paddies.
They completely dominated, where asI don't think they did in Chicago or 2018.
I've got a rant brewing about tight forwards and coaching (given I'm a "I want Foster to succeed " guy), but I need to articulate it upside mah head first
You may eventually find these two admirable intentions
a. want Foster to succeed or
b. want the ABs to succeed
are increasingly going in opposite directions -
@mencey BS. This was his first year in the 12 jersey and he's offered more than Tupaea thus far.
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mencey BS. This was his first year in the 12 jersey and he's offered more than Tupaea thus far.
He has been consistently shit. Not sure who should be in the centres. Like ALB but he has been off. We need a big forward of the like of Tana or Nanu along with ALB in for IMHO. But Havvilli is not the answer.
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@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mencey BS. This was his first year in the 12 jersey and he's offered more than Tupaea thus far.
He has been consistently shit. Not sure who should be in the centres. Like ALB but he has been off. We need a big forward of the like of Tana or Nanu along with ALB in for IMHO. But Havvilli is not the answer.
@mencey said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mencey BS. This was his first year in the 12 jersey and he's offered more than Tupaea thus far.
He has been consistently shit. Not sure who should be in the centres. Like ALB but he has been off. We need a big forward of the like of Tana or Nanu along with ALB in for IMHO. But Havvilli is not the answer.
That's a patent lie. He was excellent before the games against South Africa, especially if you consider it's his first year in the 12 jersey. Agree he's not a big guy, but there's no reason why the big guy (maybe Leicester Fainga'anuku) can't play at centre. It doesn't need to be the 12.
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@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
I cannot believe that they did not appoint Robertson as coach. The current one just has not got what it take. Look how well Canterbury and the Crusaders have done under him and I do not like either but admire both. Foster never had what it takes. The whole forward pack needs to toughen the fuck up while I am on this rant.
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@mrdenmore said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
This from the poster Highlander on Roar is one of the best analyses I’ve seen of what’s ailing the ABs.
“Somewhere deep in the heart of this coaching group and squad of players is a belief that they can run and outscore anyone, no matter the circumstances, no matter what the opposition bring.
“It’s misguided, it’s entitled and it’s just downright wrong. We don’t need to follow the years old rules of earning the right to play, we are different.”
Well I don't think we are fitter than other top teams now in the last 20 minutes. We don't tire them out any more.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mrdenmore said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
This from the poster Highlander on Roar is one of the best analyses I’ve seen of what’s ailing the ABs.
“Somewhere deep in the heart of this coaching group and squad of players is a belief that they can run and outscore anyone, no matter the circumstances, no matter what the opposition bring.
“It’s misguided, it’s entitled and it’s just downright wrong. We don’t need to follow the years old rules of earning the right to play, we are different.”
Well I don't think we are fitter than other top teams now in the last 20 minutes. We don't tire them out any more.
With all the TMO smokos its much harder nowadays.
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@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
I cannot believe that they did not appoint Robertson as coach. The current one just has not got what it take. Look how well Canterbury and the Crusaders have done under him and I do not like either but admire both. Foster never had what it takes. The whole forward pack needs to toughen the fuck up while I am on this rant.
@mencey said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
I cannot believe that they did not appoint Robertson as coach. The current one just has not got what it take. Look how well Canterbury and the Crusaders have done under him and I do not like either but admire both. Foster never had what it takes. The whole forward pack needs to toughen the fuck up while I am on this rant.
It is very hard to argue against your posts when your avatar is so darn cool.
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@mencey said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mencey BS. This was his first year in the 12 jersey and he's offered more than Tupaea thus far.
He has been consistently shit. Not sure who should be in the centres. Like ALB but he has been off. We need a big forward of the like of Tana or Nanu along with ALB in for IMHO. But Havvilli is not the answer.
That's a patent lie. He was excellent before the games against South Africa, especially if you consider it's his first year in the 12 jersey. Agree he's not a big guy, but there's no reason why the big guy (maybe Leicester Fainga'anuku) can't play at centre. It doesn't need to be the 12.
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mencey said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mencey BS. This was his first year in the 12 jersey and he's offered more than Tupaea thus far.
He has been consistently shit. Not sure who should be in the centres. Like ALB but he has been off. We need a big forward of the like of Tana or Nanu along with ALB in for IMHO. But Havvilli is not the answer.
That's a patent lie. He was excellent before the games against South Africa,
Let's keep in mind the level of competition.
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@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
I cannot believe that they did not appoint Robertson as coach. The current one just has not got what it take. Look how well Canterbury and the Crusaders have done under him and I do not like either but admire both. Foster never had what it takes. The whole forward pack needs to toughen the fuck up while I am on this rant.
@mencey said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
I cannot believe that they did not appoint Robertson as coach. The current one just has not got what it take. Look how well Canterbury and the Crusaders have done under him and I do not like either but admire both. Foster never had what it takes. The whole forward pack needs to toughen the fuck up while I am on this rant.
OK. Very fair points. But what if the problems aren't Foster or aren't just Foster? What if we get Robertson in and things don't improve that much? What do we do then?
You're dead right on the mid-field, but we've had 6 years - six fucking years - to sort out some stability which takes into account injuries, and yet our options for the France game are now down to two inexperienced tyros in Ennor & Tupaea, an out-of-form Havili and/or Reiko who's a great wing but lacks goods at 13 at Test level.
That's not all down to Foster (I actually give him credit for at least trying to fix the issue) - that's down to NZRFU taking their eye off the ball on ensuring long-term player development.
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@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mencey said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mencey BS. This was his first year in the 12 jersey and he's offered more than Tupaea thus far.
He has been consistently shit. Not sure who should be in the centres. Like ALB but he has been off. We need a big forward of the like of Tana or Nanu along with ALB in for IMHO. But Havvilli is not the answer.
That's a patent lie. He was excellent before the games against South Africa,
Let's keep in mind the level of competition.
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Let's keep in mind the level of competition.
I dunno, but perhaps that tells us a part of the problem? We think we have a great player pool and we haven't at the moment/anymore. We throw a 15 in at 12, he does a good job and looks a good prospect, but becomes a little unstuck against a tough opponent, loses confidence and then gets thrown under the bus by the critics.
Nonu has a much easier ride than Havili in many ways
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@mencey said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
I cannot believe that they did not appoint Robertson as coach. The current one just has not got what it take. Look how well Canterbury and the Crusaders have done under him and I do not like either but admire both. Foster never had what it takes. The whole forward pack needs to toughen the fuck up while I am on this rant.
OK. Very fair points. But what if the problems aren't Foster or aren't just Foster? What if we get Robertson in and things don't improve that much? What do we do then?
You're dead right on the mid-field, but we've had 6 years - six fucking years - to sort out some stability which takes into account injuries, and yet our options for the France game are now down to two inexperienced tyros in Ennor & Tupaea, an out-of-form Havili and/or Reiko who's a great wing but lacks goods at 13 at Test level.
That's not all down to Foster (I actually give him credit for at least trying to fix the issue) - that's down to NZRFU taking their eye off the ball on ensuring long-term player development.
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mencey said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
I cannot believe that they did not appoint Robertson as coach. The current one just has not got what it take. Look how well Canterbury and the Crusaders have done under him and I do not like either but admire both. Foster never had what it takes. The whole forward pack needs to toughen the fuck up while I am on this rant.
OK. Very fair points. But what if the problems aren't Foster or aren't just Foster? What if we get Robertson in and things don't improve that much? What do we do then?
You're dead right on the mid-field, but we've had 6 years - six fucking years - to sort out some stability which takes into account injuries, and yet our options for the France game are now down to two inexperienced tyros in Ennor & Tupaea, an out-of-form Havili and/or Reiko who's a great wing but lacks goods at 13 at Test level.
That's not all down to Foster (I actually give him credit for at least trying to fix the issue) - that's down to NZRFU taking their eye off the ball on ensuring long-term player development.
Aki is pulling a DiCaprio smirk right about now
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mencey said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
I cannot believe that they did not appoint Robertson as coach. The current one just has not got what it take. Look how well Canterbury and the Crusaders have done under him and I do not like either but admire both. Foster never had what it takes. The whole forward pack needs to toughen the fuck up while I am on this rant.
OK. Very fair points. But what if the problems aren't Foster or aren't just Foster? What if we get Robertson in and things don't improve that much? What do we do then?
You're dead right on the mid-field, but we've had 6 years - six fucking years - to sort out some stability which takes into account injuries, and yet our options for the France game are now down to two inexperienced tyros in Ennor & Tupaea, an out-of-form Havili and/or Reiko who's a great wing but lacks goods at 13 at Test level.
That's not all down to Foster (I actually give him credit for at least trying to fix the issue) - that's down to NZRFU taking their eye off the ball on ensuring long-term player development.
Aki is pulling a DiCaprio smirk right about now
@mikethesnow said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mencey said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
I cannot believe that they did not appoint Robertson as coach. The current one just has not got what it take. Look how well Canterbury and the Crusaders have done under him and I do not like either but admire both. Foster never had what it takes. The whole forward pack needs to toughen the fuck up while I am on this rant.
OK. Very fair points. But what if the problems aren't Foster or aren't just Foster? What if we get Robertson in and things don't improve that much? What do we do then?
You're dead right on the mid-field, but we've had 6 years - six fucking years - to sort out some stability which takes into account injuries, and yet our options for the France game are now down to two inexperienced tyros in Ennor & Tupaea, an out-of-form Havili and/or Reiko who's a great wing but lacks goods at 13 at Test level.
That's not all down to Foster (I actually give him credit for at least trying to fix the issue) - that's down to NZRFU taking their eye off the ball on ensuring long-term player development.
Aki is pulling a DiCaprio smirk right about now
Dunno Mike, but we could sure learn from Wales on developing new players and bringing them seamlessly into the squad.
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Interesting comments from Foster:
"I think our pack’s gone pretty well through the year. Overall, I’ve been reasonably satisfied to date"
“Certainly, we got put on the back foot a little bit last night, but parts of our forward play, I thought, was really good"
“But, consistently over 80 minutes, we’ve got to get stronger, and, also, we’ve got to make sure that we’re giving our forwards a chance to impose themselves on the opposition a bit better."
This is an interesting one. Basically saying to the backs stop messing up so that we can get the forwards into our attacking patterns.
“I thought we turned over a lot of ball in the backs within one-to-two phases again, and that’s something that actually hurt us in the first test against South Africa, even though we won it."
“We got into a similar problem [against Ireland], and that came back to bite us a little bit, so it’s really a matter of backs being accountable for the decisions they make and retaining the ball to give our forwards a chance to impose themselves, and that’s going to be a big part of the solution.”
Whether you agree with his prognosis, he's not exactly wrong that the backline in general were poor on Saturday and brought on additional pressure. In the past when the AB forwards have been under pressure, the backs have offered a way to relieve that pressure and keep the opposition honest. That outlet wasn't there on Saturday.
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Interesting comments from Foster:
"I think our pack’s gone pretty well through the year. Overall, I’ve been reasonably satisfied to date"
“Certainly, we got put on the back foot a little bit last night, but parts of our forward play, I thought, was really good"
“But, consistently over 80 minutes, we’ve got to get stronger, and, also, we’ve got to make sure that we’re giving our forwards a chance to impose themselves on the opposition a bit better."
This is an interesting one. Basically saying to the backs stop messing up so that we can get the forwards into our attacking patterns.
“I thought we turned over a lot of ball in the backs within one-to-two phases again, and that’s something that actually hurt us in the first test against South Africa, even though we won it."
“We got into a similar problem [against Ireland], and that came back to bite us a little bit, so it’s really a matter of backs being accountable for the decisions they make and retaining the ball to give our forwards a chance to impose themselves, and that’s going to be a big part of the solution.”
Whether you agree with his prognosis, he's not exactly wrong that the backline in general were poor on Saturday and brought on additional pressure. In the past when the AB forwards have been under pressure, the backs have offered a way to relieve that pressure and keep the opposition honest. That outlet wasn't there on Saturday.
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@stodders I think the backs aren’t given much of a chance. Yes they made mistakes and some ownership there but what kind of forward platform does he think is good? I don’t understand the man.
@broughie said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders I think the backs aren’t given much of a chance. Yes they made mistakes and some ownership there but what kind of forward platform does he think is good? I don’t understand the man.
I think he's saying that mistakes by the backs and poor ball retention are disrupting the forwards by forcing them onto the defensive and disrupting their momentum.
