All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour
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@no-quarter said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
but it just doesn't seem like we have figured out how to play the more physical teams with the organised rush defense
cut them some slack, the first time were exposed to that was 2017, good things take time.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@no-quarter said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
but it just doesn't seem like we have figured out how to play the more physical teams with the organised rush defense
cut them some slack, the first time were exposed to that was 2017, good things take time.
Only 4 years we should have worked it by 2025 maybe :disappointed_face:
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Sotutu or Jacobson havent had a fair go this tour. Both decent players
@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Sotutu or Jacobson havent had a fair go this tour. Both decent players.
Are you saying the All Blacks should be about a “fair go”?
What does that even mean when top level pro sport has never been about objectivity.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
A bit of a tale of two stories - one for the backs, where everyone paid for their errors (to the extent that injuries permit), but in the forwards it seems like they still want to trust some old heads but punish/rest a few.
- Taylor pays with his spot, despite being probably the best of the three starting front row
- Brodie gets another chance, thus Vaa'ii may be just as likely to not take the field
- Paps and Blackadder pay for doing their jobs, and the player who put in the least effort of the three gets rewarded with another test
- Frizell gets bought in to bring a big body, despite having almost zero rugby, and we've not seen him be the type of player who makes an instant impact (or much impact at all)
I don't think we'll end the year with any better idea of what our best team is, compared to before rugby kicked off in February. That says something.
I'd suggest a big part of that is the nature of this year's congested fixture list. They'd have to have managed workloads in the camp to get through two blocks of five Tests in a row.
FWIW given injuries and workloads, I'd say this is pretty close to the best team they can put out. Paps must be sore and tired now given his efforts this far. Vaa'i needs to continue his managed introduction to get more accuracy. Taylor started the season well and has dropped off so it makes sense to me that you'd replace him with a fit Dane.
I think it shows that they've picked too many players they don't seem to want to play - we've hardly seen Aumua, De Groot, Ta'avao, Ennor, Sotutu, and Lord (understandable).
So, this week we've gone back to future with Bridge when we could have gone with Ennor (conceivably, giving better 13 cover), and we're still yet to see opportunities for De Groot who might be our best young prop with ball in hand. We also don't see Sotutu or Jacobson, when this test would be the ideal one (if rest is needed) to put Ardie back on the bench where he belongs.
Ennor on the wing is a good call. Get him used to Test rugby so he can be a centre option (he's a million miles away at the moment).
Bridge is a failure at Test level and it's a waste of a spot. Problem solves itself when Clarke comes back next year, but for this weekend going back to Bridge just means no attack from his wing.
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
A bit of a tale of two stories - one for the backs, where everyone paid for their errors (to the extent that injuries permit), but in the forwards it seems like they still want to trust some old heads but punish/rest a few.
- Taylor pays with his spot, despite being probably the best of the three starting front row
- Brodie gets another chance, thus Vaa'ii may be just as likely to not take the field
- Paps and Blackadder pay for doing their jobs, and the player who put in the least effort of the three gets rewarded with another test
- Frizell gets bought in to bring a big body, despite having almost zero rugby, and we've not seen him be the type of player who makes an instant impact (or much impact at all)
I don't think we'll end the year with any better idea of what our best team is, compared to before rugby kicked off in February. That says something.
I'd suggest a big part of that is the nature of this year's congested fixture list. They'd have to have managed workloads in the camp to get through two blocks of five Tests in a row.
FWIW given injuries and workloads, I'd say this is pretty close to the best team they can put out. Paps must be sore and tired now given his efforts this far. Vaa'i needs to continue his managed introduction to get more accuracy. Taylor started the season well and has dropped off so it makes sense to me that you'd replace him with a fit Dane.
I think it shows that they've picked too many players they don't seem to want to play - we've hardly seen Aumua, De Groot, Ta'avao, Ennor, Sotutu, and Lord (understandable).
So, this week we've gone back to future with Bridge when we could have gone with Ennor (conceivably, giving better 13 cover), and we're still yet to see opportunities for De Groot who might be our best young prop with ball in hand. We also don't see Sotutu or Jacobson, when this test would be the ideal one (if rest is needed) to put Ardie back on the bench where he belongs.
Ennor on the wing is a good call. Get him used to Test rugby so he can be a centre option (he's a million miles away at the moment).
Bridge is a failure at Test level and it's a waste of a spot. Problem solves itself when Clarke comes back next year, but for this weekend going back to Bridge just means no attack from his wing.
Bridge to score within the first 10 minutes then
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@gt12 Are you being serious with those charges? Just looks like the whole squad is being managed through a long arduous program and opportunities given on merit for the commitment made and rest given where required. The rotation seems largely planned around who the opposition is and not about playing the supposed top xv each week regardless of circumstances.
If you are serious then I would hate to be in any squad you are involved in. Just flog your favourites and deny others opportunities when they are selected.
I don't care if we lose the odd match when we are building depth and combinations and giving fair opportunities to those selected to improve their experience in international conditions with different refereeing styles and constant hometown scrutiny of possible incidents while playing away from home and covid restrictions on the usual touring activities and distancing from friends and family.
So I totally disagree with the criticism of selections when this management crew has probably had the biggest challenge of the professional era in keeping the players motivated and unified as a team. Just witness the Lions tours issues with the dirt trackers for a comparison.@arhs said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Are you being serious with those charges? Just looks like the whole squad is being managed through a long arduous program and opportunities given on merit for the commitment made and rest given where required
I just can't buy that when there are very good players left with very little game time and we see things like Perenara going a whole game when he's the worst halfback on tour.
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Just going to say I don't have the same sense of trepidation for this Test.
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Just going to say I don't have the same sense of trepidation for this Test.
@antipodean said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Just going to say I don't have the same sense of trepidation for this Test.
They have successfully lowered your expectations
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I’m going to leave judgement until after the match.
If we get slaughtered - coaches out please
If we win convincingly not only on the scoreboard but also on the pitch - fair play to foster.
A middling display - coaches out please
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I’m going to leave judgement until after the match.
If we get slaughtered - coaches out please
If we win convincingly not only on the scoreboard but also on the pitch - fair play to foster.
A middling display - coaches out please
@billy-tell said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
I’m going to leave judgement until after the match.
If we get slaughtered - coaches out please
If we win convincingly not only on the scoreboard but also on the pitch - fair play to foster.
A middling display - coaches out please
but how consistently have France been playing? If not very consistent, then the result might not be very revealing.
2019: Scraped past Tonga in the group stage, just lost to Wales by 1 in RWC QF.
2021: Thrashed Italy (50-10), beat Ireland (15-13), just lost to England (20-23)..just beat Wales (32-30), lost to Scotland by 4 (23-27)... -
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@billy-tell said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
I’m going to leave judgement until after the match.
If we get slaughtered - coaches out please
If we win convincingly not only on the scoreboard but also on the pitch - fair play to foster.
A middling display - coaches out please
but how consistently have France been playing? If not very consistent, then the result might not be very revealing.
2019: Scraped past Tonga in the group stage, just lost to Wales by 1 in RWC QF.
2021: Thrashed Italy (50-10), beat Ireland (15-13), just lost to England (20-23)..just beat Wales (32-30), lost to Scotland by 4 (23-27)...If it is a 2004 45-6 type of performance, then I'm sure ppl will be happy
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@billy-tell said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
I’m going to leave judgement until after the match.
If we get slaughtered - coaches out please
If we win convincingly not only on the scoreboard but also on the pitch - fair play to foster.
A middling display - coaches out please
but how consistently have France been playing? If not very consistent, then the result might not be very revealing.
2019: Scraped past Tonga in the group stage, just lost to Wales by 1 in RWC QF.
2021: Thrashed Italy (50-10), beat Ireland (15-13), just lost to England (20-23)..just beat Wales (32-30), lost to Scotland by 4 (23-27)...@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@billy-tell said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
I’m going to leave judgement until after the match.
If we get slaughtered - coaches out please
If we win convincingly not only on the scoreboard but also on the pitch - fair play to foster.
A middling display - coaches out please
but how consistently have France been playing? If not very consistent, then the result might not be very revealing.
2019: Scraped past Tonga in the group stage, just lost to Wales by 1 in RWC QF.
2021: Thrashed Italy (50-10), beat Ireland (15-13), just lost to England (20-23)..just beat Wales (32-30), lost to Scotland by 4 (23-27)...Their form fluctuates a bit but not to to the point of being easy-beats. So if we win convincingly then we will have played well.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@billy-tell said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
I’m going to leave judgement until after the match.
If we get slaughtered - coaches out please
If we win convincingly not only on the scoreboard but also on the pitch - fair play to foster.
A middling display - coaches out please
but how consistently have France been playing? If not very consistent, then the result might not be very revealing.
2019: Scraped past Tonga in the group stage, just lost to Wales by 1 in RWC QF.
2021: Thrashed Italy (50-10), beat Ireland (15-13), just lost to England (20-23)..just beat Wales (32-30), lost to Scotland by 4 (23-27)...Their form fluctuates a bit but not to to the point of being easy-beats. So if we win convincingly then we will have played well.
@billy-tell said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@billy-tell said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
I’m going to leave judgement until after the match.
If we get slaughtered - coaches out please
If we win convincingly not only on the scoreboard but also on the pitch - fair play to foster.
A middling display - coaches out please
but how consistently have France been playing? If not very consistent, then the result might not be very revealing.
2019: Scraped past Tonga in the group stage, just lost to Wales by 1 in RWC QF.
2021: Thrashed Italy (50-10), beat Ireland (15-13), just lost to England (20-23)..just beat Wales (32-30), lost to Scotland by 4 (23-27)...Their form fluctuates a bit but not to to the point of being easy-beats. So if we win convincingly then we will have played well.
Fair enough!
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Typically it we beat France outside a world cup it's shrugged off as France B/C or the end of a long season or... something else.
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Typically it we beat France outside a world cup it's shrugged off as France B/C or the end of a long season or... something else.
This year is different!! Welcome back to the chasing pack again where every game means something
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@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Typically it we beat France outside a world cup it's shrugged off as France B/C or the end of a long season or... something else.
This year is different!! Welcome back to the chasing pack again where every game means something
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Typically it we beat France outside a world cup it's shrugged off as France B/C or the end of a long season or... something else.
This year is different!! Welcome back to the chasing pack again where every game means something
See this irritates me, it is a subtle lowering of standards and expectations. We had never lost to Ireland until recently, so that's not "welcome back to what was previously normal after an abnormal period of a really good team", it is a new low. The aussie eales era vs now fits that description, not the abs.
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After last week France would have to be faves for this test, how well do they deal with that.
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@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Sotutu or Jacobson havent had a fair go this tour. Both decent players.
Are you saying the All Blacks should be about a “fair go”?
What does that even mean when top level pro sport has never been about objectivity.
@act-crusader cant see the point of taking good players on a long tour and getting minimal game time
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@frye said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Conservative starting selection.
6-2 split, with two locks and no demi du melee (9) on bench.
Potential for three Wesley Old Boys on field at same time!
@pakman said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@frye said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Conservative starting selection.
6-2 split, with two locks and no demi du melee (9) on bench.
Potential for three Wesley Old Boys on field at same time!
EDIT: Wrong Lucu -- Maxine is a 9.
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@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Typically it we beat France outside a world cup it's shrugged off as France B/C or the end of a long season or... something else.
This year is different!! Welcome back to the chasing pack again where every game means something
See this irritates me, it is a subtle lowering of standards and expectations. We had never lost to Ireland until recently, so that's not "welcome back to what was previously normal after an abnormal period of a really good team", it is a new low. The aussie eales era vs now fits that description, not the abs.
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Typically it we beat France outside a world cup it's shrugged off as France B/C or the end of a long season or... something else.
This year is different!! Welcome back to the chasing pack again where every game means something
See this irritates me, it is a subtle lowering of standards and expectations. We had never lost to Ireland until recently, so that's not "welcome back to what was previously normal after an abnormal period of a really good team", it is a new low. The aussie eales era vs now fits that description, not the abs.
I could understand this if Ireland played like they did 20 years ago. But they don't. They are a professional outfit that have probably improved more than any other nation in the last 20 years.
There isn't another team that comes even close to what the ABs did under Henry, then Hansen, in terms of winning record. Given how many internationals that are played nowadays, Henry's team only losing twice to NH opposition was quite frankly a ludicrous achievement over 8 years. It was always unlikely that the ABs would be able to maintain their standards, and other teams to not raise theirs.
So yes, the ABs have moved back towards the mean and other nations have raised their game. In terms of having a competitive sport, isn't that the goal?
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Typically it we beat France outside a world cup it's shrugged off as France B/C or the end of a long season or... something else.
This year is different!! Welcome back to the chasing pack again where every game means something
See this irritates me, it is a subtle lowering of standards and expectations. We had never lost to Ireland until recently, so that's not "welcome back to what was previously normal after an abnormal period of a really good team", it is a new low. The aussie eales era vs now fits that description, not the abs.
I could understand this if Ireland played like they did 20 years ago. But they don't. They are a professional outfit that have probably improved more than any other nation in the last 20 years.
There isn't another team that comes even close to what the ABs did under Henry, then Hansen, in terms of winning record. Given how many internationals that are played nowadays, Henry's team only losing twice to NH opposition was quite frankly a ludicrous achievement over 8 years. It was always unlikely that the ABs would be able to maintain their standards, and other teams to not raise theirs.
So yes, the ABs have moved back towards the mean and other nations have raised their game. In terms of having a competitive sport, isn't that the goal?
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Typically it we beat France outside a world cup it's shrugged off as France B/C or the end of a long season or... something else.
This year is different!! Welcome back to the chasing pack again where every game means something
See this irritates me, it is a subtle lowering of standards and expectations. We had never lost to Ireland until recently, so that's not "welcome back to what was previously normal after an abnormal period of a really good team", it is a new low. The aussie eales era vs now fits that description, not the abs.
I could understand this if Ireland played like they did 20 years ago. But they don't. They are a professional outfit that have probably improved more than any other nation in the last 20 years.
There isn't another team that comes even close to what the ABs did under Henry, then Hansen, in terms of winning record. Given how many internationals that are played nowadays, Henry's team only losing twice to NH opposition was quite frankly a ludicrous achievement over 8 years. It was always unlikely that the ABs would be able to maintain their standards, and other teams to not raise theirs.
So yes, the ABs have moved back towards the mean and other nations have raised their game. In terms of having a competitive sport, isn't that the goal?
Its not about losing as much as how we are losing to the same teams that play the same way against us.
And we can't come up with game plans and tactics to overcome these teams its been a pattern since the WC lose to England in 2019.
Its the same old loses with no progression,if Foster and co are so Awesome as a coaching unit,Change something to get the AB's going forward.It has been one of our strengths to re invent the game somewhat to stay ahead of the pack.
But now we are content to fall back into the pack, and just become another team not the AB's anymore.
As we are getting beaten badly more regularly our revenue stream will diminsh and the AB's reputation will tarnish more and more and we will never be the same again. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Typically it we beat France outside a world cup it's shrugged off as France B/C or the end of a long season or... something else.
This year is different!! Welcome back to the chasing pack again where every game means something
See this irritates me, it is a subtle lowering of standards and expectations. We had never lost to Ireland until recently, so that's not "welcome back to what was previously normal after an abnormal period of a really good team", it is a new low. The aussie eales era vs now fits that description, not the abs.
I could understand this if Ireland played like they did 20 years ago. But they don't. They are a professional outfit that have probably improved more than any other nation in the last 20 years.
There isn't another team that comes even close to what the ABs did under Henry, then Hansen, in terms of winning record. Given how many internationals that are played nowadays, Henry's team only losing twice to NH opposition was quite frankly a ludicrous achievement over 8 years. It was always unlikely that the ABs would be able to maintain their standards, and other teams to not raise theirs.
So yes, the ABs have moved back towards the mean and other nations have raised their game. In terms of having a competitive sport, isn't that the goal?
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Typically it we beat France outside a world cup it's shrugged off as France B/C or the end of a long season or... something else.
This year is different!! Welcome back to the chasing pack again where every game means something
See this irritates me, it is a subtle lowering of standards and expectations. We had never lost to Ireland until recently, so that's not "welcome back to what was previously normal after an abnormal period of a really good team", it is a new low. The aussie eales era vs now fits that description, not the abs.
I could understand this if Ireland played like they did 20 years ago. But they don't. They are a professional outfit that have probably improved more than any other nation in the last 20 years.
How much was due to Joe Schmidt? Or are there other key factors?
