Red Cards
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YC for careless or cynical play: Sin bin and on report (fine/ban)
OC for reckless or dangerous play: Sinbin and you can't return, and on report (fine/ban)
RC for intentional filth: Off with no replacement (fine/ban)
Report system for anything missed with bans lengthened by one match
Penalties also lengthened across the board and fines used.Edit: Another idea would be, if people don't like an orange card, to have people not be able to return from the Sinbin. So, pretty much everything is either a penalty or YC, and after 10 minutes the team has the choice to replace players until they are out of replacements. Red cards are only for intentional filth.
@gt12 I'm still not a fan of reducing a team to 14 (or less) for the balance of the game.
Filth, you are gone but still replaced, why is the rest of your team punished cos you a dirty fluffybunny? Why are fans punished cos you a dirty fluffybunny?
The accidental ones are tougher, Barrett for example, huge bone head thuggish move, but no way did he go out to hurt/injure someone, but he has, so he needs to go too and not return, I'd be keen on an orange card being 10 mins, but automatic 2 week ban to go with your judiciary visit, more time off and a fine.
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I'm convinced that rugby needs a cultural change so that cards for head contact are replaced with a citation system and longer suspensions.
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I'm convinced that rugby needs a cultural change so that cards for head contact are replaced with a citation system and longer suspensions.
@antipodean said in Red Cards:
I'm convinced that rugby needs a cultural change so that cards for head contact are replaced with a citation system and longer suspensions.
I tend to agree. Think there needs to be a distinction between deliberate dangerous play, like kneeing someone in the neck, and what is essentially poor tacking technique.
If on-field sanction is needed, perhaps a YC and citation/suspension system where things can be looked at away from the baying crowd?
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I'm not sure the real issue is being addressed.
If it was being addressed properly, then the numbers should be going down. They aren't. They are sky rocketing.
First step in resolving a problem, is really understanding what the problem is. I'm not sure that's being done here.
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I'm not sure the real issue is being addressed.
If it was being addressed properly, then the numbers should be going down. They aren't. They are sky rocketing.
First step in resolving a problem, is really understanding what the problem is. I'm not sure that's being done here.
@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
I'm not sure the real issue is being addressed.
If it was being addressed properly, then the numbers should be going down. They aren't. They are sky rocketing.
First step in resolving a problem, is really understanding what the problem is. I'm not sure that's being done here.
You could look at it another way in that it's well and truly recognised now by officials, but not being addressed by coaches and players, hence the sky rockets in flight.
No afternoon delight.
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@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
I'm not sure the real issue is being addressed.
If it was being addressed properly, then the numbers should be going down. They aren't. They are sky rocketing.
First step in resolving a problem, is really understanding what the problem is. I'm not sure that's being done here.
You could look at it another way in that it's well and truly recognised now by officials, but not being addressed by coaches and players, hence the sky rockets in flight.
No afternoon delight.
@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
I'm not sure the real issue is being addressed.
If it was being addressed properly, then the numbers should be going down. They aren't. They are sky rocketing.
First step in resolving a problem, is really understanding what the problem is. I'm not sure that's being done here.
You could look at it another way in that it's well and truly recognised now by officials, but not being addressed by coaches and players, hence the sky rockets in flight.
No afternoon delight.
Yeah, very true. However perhaps a certain number of head knocks are just part of how the game is played & there really is nothing you can do about them other than punish those that find themselves being the perpetrator.
People aren't perfect and never have been. Modern game you need to tackle around the chest to stop plays. As long as this remains the key way to clear people out / collide, then head knocks are always going to happen. If everybody did everything perfectly runners would never get injured, tennis players would never do an unforced error, cricketers would never drop catches.
It's just not reality.
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@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
I'm not sure the real issue is being addressed.
If it was being addressed properly, then the numbers should be going down. They aren't. They are sky rocketing.
First step in resolving a problem, is really understanding what the problem is. I'm not sure that's being done here.
You could look at it another way in that it's well and truly recognised now by officials, but not being addressed by coaches and players, hence the sky rockets in flight.
No afternoon delight.
Yeah, very true. However perhaps a certain number of head knocks are just part of how the game is played & there really is nothing you can do about them other than punish those that find themselves being the perpetrator.
People aren't perfect and never have been. Modern game you need to tackle around the chest to stop plays. As long as this remains the key way to clear people out / collide, then head knocks are always going to happen. If everybody did everything perfectly runners would never get injured, tennis players would never do an unforced error, cricketers would never drop catches.
It's just not reality.
@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
Modern game you need to tackle around the chest to stop plays.
That's not necessarily true though and it's this attitude that needs to be addressed I reckon, it's simply just not ok to do something dangerous/careless/reckless to stop play - if you can't do it safely, then don't do it. Then the game opens up and/or teams find other ways to safely get around foul play.
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@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
Modern game you need to tackle around the chest to stop plays.
That's not necessarily true though and it's this attitude that needs to be addressed I reckon, it's simply just not ok to do something dangerous/careless/reckless to stop play - if you can't do it safely, then don't do it. Then the game opens up and/or teams find other ways to safely get around foul play.
@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
Modern game you need to tackle around the chest to stop plays.
That's not necessarily true though and it's this attitude that needs to be addressed I reckon, it's simply just not ok to do something dangerous/careless/reckless to stop play - if you can't do it safely, then don't do it. Then the game opens up and/or teams find other ways to safely get around foul play.
It's true if you tack on the word effectively to it.
I'm not condoning people shoulder charging to head/neck. Far from it. But the way the game is being played at the moment, it IS going to happen. Either we are happy with a huge increase in the cards, or we aren't. The number of cards is only going to go up, unless the real problem is addressed.
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@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
Modern game you need to tackle around the chest to stop plays.
That's not necessarily true though and it's this attitude that needs to be addressed I reckon, it's simply just not ok to do something dangerous/careless/reckless to stop play - if you can't do it safely, then don't do it. Then the game opens up and/or teams find other ways to safely get around foul play.
It's true if you tack on the word effectively to it.
I'm not condoning people shoulder charging to head/neck. Far from it. But the way the game is being played at the moment, it IS going to happen. Either we are happy with a huge increase in the cards, or we aren't. The number of cards is only going to go up, unless the real problem is addressed.
@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
unless the real problem is addressed
Which is the players and coaches not taking responsibility and effectively training on technique to be safer. And the casual fans moaning that there's nothing the players can do about it....
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Just to add - most of the complaints I'm seeing are people saying that there's no way players have time to adjust and/or couldn't make the tackle (etc) any other way. I sure hope they're not the same people that complain about defences being too tight and hard to unlock...
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@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
unless the real problem is addressed
Which is the players and coaches not taking responsibility and effectively training on technique to be safer. And the casual fans moaning that there's nothing the players can do about it....
@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
unless the real problem is addressed
Which is the players and coaches not taking responsibility and effectively training on technique to be safer. And the casual fans moaning that there's nothing the players can do about it....
We are just going around in circles. You aren't wrong, and I'm just saying people aren't perfect and no matter how much you train, mistakes are going to be made.
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@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
unless the real problem is addressed
Which is the players and coaches not taking responsibility and effectively training on technique to be safer. And the casual fans moaning that there's nothing the players can do about it....
We are just going around in circles. You aren't wrong, and I'm just saying people aren't perfect and no matter how much you train, mistakes are going to be made.
@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
unless the real problem is addressed
Which is the players and coaches not taking responsibility and effectively training on technique to be safer. And the casual fans moaning that there's nothing the players can do about it....
We are just going around in circles. You aren't wrong, and I'm just saying people aren't perfect and no matter how much you train, mistakes are going to be made.
Oh not arguing mistakes are going to be made. I'm in no doubt less can be made though. Carter kicks waaaay better than most and Smith passes waaaay better than most - I'm not convinced that it's the laws and officiating that make this so.
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@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
unless the real problem is addressed
Which is the players and coaches not taking responsibility and effectively training on technique to be safer. And the casual fans moaning that there's nothing the players can do about it....
We are just going around in circles. You aren't wrong, and I'm just saying people aren't perfect and no matter how much you train, mistakes are going to be made.
Oh not arguing mistakes are going to be made. I'm in no doubt less can be made though. Carter kicks waaaay better than most and Smith passes waaaay better than most - I'm not convinced that it's the laws and officiating that make this so.
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@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
unless the real problem is addressed
Which is the players and coaches not taking responsibility and effectively training on technique to be safer. And the casual fans moaning that there's nothing the players can do about it....
We are just going around in circles. You aren't wrong, and I'm just saying people aren't perfect and no matter how much you train, mistakes are going to be made.
Oh not arguing mistakes are going to be made. I'm in no doubt less can be made though. Carter kicks waaaay better than most and Smith passes waaaay better than most - I'm not convinced that it's the laws and officiating that make this so.
@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
unless the real problem is addressed
Which is the players and coaches not taking responsibility and effectively training on technique to be safer. And the casual fans moaning that there's nothing the players can do about it....
We are just going around in circles. You aren't wrong, and I'm just saying people aren't perfect and no matter how much you train, mistakes are going to be made.
Oh not arguing mistakes are going to be made. I'm in no doubt less can be made though.
Yeah, so that's where we differ. I think under current laws, the number can't go down.
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@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
unless the real problem is addressed
Which is the players and coaches not taking responsibility and effectively training on technique to be safer. And the casual fans moaning that there's nothing the players can do about it....
We are just going around in circles. You aren't wrong, and I'm just saying people aren't perfect and no matter how much you train, mistakes are going to be made.
Oh not arguing mistakes are going to be made. I'm in no doubt less can be made though.
Yeah, so that's where we differ. I think under current laws, the number can't go down.
@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
I think under current laws, the number can't go down.
Can you expand on why? What doesn't make sense to me is why people think players can't tackle lower, or not tuck the arm and lead with the shoulder, or not pretend to only have eyes for the ball and run straight through a jumping player's legs?
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@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
I think under current laws, the number can't go down.
Can you expand on why? What doesn't make sense to me is why people think players can't tackle lower, or not tuck the arm and lead with the shoulder, or not pretend to only have eyes for the ball and run straight through a jumping player's legs?
@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
I think under current laws, the number can't go down.
Can you expand on why? What doesn't make sense to me is why people think players can't tackle lower, or not tuck the arm and lead with the shoulder, or not pretend to only have eyes for the ball and run straight through a jumping player's legs?
Goes back to what I said earlier. Mistakes happen.
You can coach coach coach, but in the heat of the moment, the first instinct may put people at risk. I'm not condoning, or suggesting at all, but reality is that unless the following rule changes are made, these things are always going to happen:
- Tackling around the legs only
- No running clean outs
- Cannot jump to catch a ball
As long as players can do these things, it doesn't matter how much you coach, suspend, red card, these sort of accidents will continue to happen, because for the most part, they are what they are. Accidents.
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@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
I think under current laws, the number can't go down.
Can you expand on why? What doesn't make sense to me is why people think players can't tackle lower, or not tuck the arm and lead with the shoulder, or not pretend to only have eyes for the ball and run straight through a jumping player's legs?
@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
I think under current laws, the number can't go down.
Can you expand on why? What doesn't make sense to me is why people think players can't tackle lower, or not tuck the arm and lead with the shoulder, or not pretend to only have eyes for the ball and run straight through a jumping player's legs?
I don't think it's so much that they can't, it's more that they won't with the current approach. Why would a team or player voluntarily put themselves at a disadvantage compared to everyone else? Would you accept your team losing (or by) more just to prevent any of the players getting red carded? With teams so focused on winning the collisions, it's a hard sell to just concede them all (or a lot of them) to the opposition.
There either needs to be a concerted effort to change by all teams, or it has to be forced onto them. And the first option is unlikely to happen.
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@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
I think under current laws, the number can't go down.
Can you expand on why? What doesn't make sense to me is why people think players can't tackle lower, or not tuck the arm and lead with the shoulder, or not pretend to only have eyes for the ball and run straight through a jumping player's legs?
I don't think it's so much that they can't, it's more that they won't with the current approach. Why would a team or player voluntarily put themselves at a disadvantage compared to everyone else? Would you accept your team losing (or by) more just to prevent any of the players getting red carded? With teams so focused on winning the collisions, it's a hard sell to just concede them all (or a lot of them) to the opposition.
There either needs to be a concerted effort to change by all teams, or it has to be forced onto them. And the first option is unlikely to happen.
@Anonymous said in Red Cards:
@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
I think under current laws, the number can't go down.
Can you expand on why? What doesn't make sense to me is why people think players can't tackle lower, or not tuck the arm and lead with the shoulder, or not pretend to only have eyes for the ball and run straight through a jumping player's legs?
I don't think it's so much that they can't, it's more that they won't with the current approach. Why would a team or player voluntarily put themselves at a disadvantage compared to everyone else? Would you accept your team losing (or by) more just to prevent any of the players getting red carded? With teams so focused on winning the collisions, it's a hard sell to just concede them all (or a lot of them) to the opposition.
There either needs to be a concerted effort to change by all teams, or it has to be forced onto them. And the first option is unlikely to happen.
So you're better off on the sidelines than conceding a couple of metres and/or an offload?
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@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
I think under current laws, the number can't go down.
Can you expand on why? What doesn't make sense to me is why people think players can't tackle lower, or not tuck the arm and lead with the shoulder, or not pretend to only have eyes for the ball and run straight through a jumping player's legs?
Goes back to what I said earlier. Mistakes happen.
You can coach coach coach, but in the heat of the moment, the first instinct may put people at risk. I'm not condoning, or suggesting at all, but reality is that unless the following rule changes are made, these things are always going to happen:
- Tackling around the legs only
- No running clean outs
- Cannot jump to catch a ball
As long as players can do these things, it doesn't matter how much you coach, suspend, red card, these sort of accidents will continue to happen, because for the most part, they are what they are. Accidents.
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@MajorRage you don't think tackling around the legs only would lead to a gazillion cards?
Depends on how tackles are sanctioned. If it remains yellow/red for neck/head but penalty for chest then no.
Don't think it would be much of a game though.
