All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
Leicester was far from ready then (I'm not sure he's ready now to be honest - not to be starting this game, anyway)
I just don't get this logic that these young/new players 'aren't ready'. I could understand it if our top guys were doing the business but they aren't.
In the last 4 big games of the season last year we squeaked out a last minute vs the Boks and then lost to the Boks, Ireland and France. A Boks team the Wallabies beat twice by the way (the second time fairly handily).
There's a difference between Leicester being ready compared to a World XV winger and being ready compared to our recent options.
@KiwiMurph Well, we could have picked Leicester when he was on TV starring for Nelson College, but he wasn't ready then either.
Last year he was still making tons of errors and he wasn't secure under the high ball.
This year he's still making a few more errors than I'd like, but he's definitely significantly better.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
Playing Jordie ahead of Jordan looks even worse with hindsight, but you can see the logic to it at the time.
You can? Can you explain it to me as I never understood it?
Foster has done some good stuff which he deserves credit for, but he's also done some weird stuff. I'm not bagging him as I think he inherited a bit of a disaster, but he's still on probation for me.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
Playing Jordie ahead of Jordan looks even worse with hindsight, but you can see the logic to it at the time.
You can? Can you explain it to me as I never understood it?
Foster has done some good stuff which he deserves credit for, but he's also done some weird stuff. I'm not bagging him as I think he inherited a bit of a disaster, but he's still on probation for me.
Jordan had never played a test. We had no easy warm-up games to ease him in. And Fozzie was a new, ender-pressure head coach desperate to win, so Jordie seemed like a safe option.
As it turned out, Jordan looks like he didn't need those training wheels, but maybe he's benefited from being held back.
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@Victor-Meldrew it’s not as if this sort of thing hasn’t happened before though.
Flavell at 6, he’s no blindside, he’s a lock, but he’s got pace
What is Jerry Collins playing number 8? That’s not his position.
Mils on the wing? Mils at centre? Mils back at fullback?
Dagg on the wing? Dagg back at fullback?
Bender on the wing? Bender at centre? Bender at fullback? Bender back on the wing?
And you could go through a litany of props that were used under Mitchell, Henry, Hansen - where the response was either “what’s he done?” to “whatever happened to such and such, I thought he looked alright after his first shot off the bench”, never to see him much again.
Maybe our internet plans are better now and we can write more about it
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Victor-Meldrew it’s not as if this sort of thing hasn’t happened before though.
**Flavell at 6, he’s no blindside, he’s a lock, but he’s got pace
What is Jerry Collins playing number 8? That’s not his position.
**
Mils on the wing? Mils at centre? Mils back at fullback?Dagg on the wing? Dagg back at fullback?
Bender on the wing? Bender at centre? Bender at fullback? Bender back on the wing?
And you could go through a litany of props that were used under Mitchell, Henry, Hansen - where the response was either “what’s he done?” to “whatever happened to such and such, I thought he looked alright after his first shot off the bench”, never to see him much again.
Maybe our internet plans are better now and we can write more about it
They both played loads at six and eight respectively or is my memory that bad ?
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Chris-B Scott Barret is not an experienced 6 at super level, let alone test level. My memory is shit, but has he even had an adequate game at 6 for the AB's?
I'd still rather have him than any other option if the criteria is someone who can cover lock.
If we were just picking an available 6, I'd be happier with Tom Robinson - but, I don't want a bar of him covering lock.
jesus...is that how far we've fallen...one of the key criteria for a position is the ability to cover another position for 20mins? how about just being the best fucking 6 in the country and we'll stick another lock on the bench?
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Chris-B Scott Barret is not an experienced 6 at super level, let alone test level. My memory is shit, but has he even had an adequate game at 6 for the AB's?
I'd still rather have him than any other option if the criteria is someone who can cover lock.
If we were just picking an available 6, I'd be happier with Tom Robinson - but, I don't want a bar of him covering lock.
jesus...is that how far we've fallen...one of the key criteria for a position is the ability to cover another position for 20mins? how about just being the best fucking 6 in the country and we'll stick another lock on the bench?
Actually, I was specifically responding to your criteria. You were the one who said:
exactly, if we need a lock the SB is ya man....if we need a 6 that can step into lock for the final 20mins...there are better options, this is just fozzie getting blinded by just getting who he considers the best 23 players on the pitch without considering other factors
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Chris-B Scott Barret is not an experienced 6 at super level, let alone test level. My memory is shit, but has he even had an adequate game at 6 for the AB's?
I'd still rather have him than any other option if the criteria is someone who can cover lock.
If we were just picking an available 6, I'd be happier with Tom Robinson - but, I don't want a bar of him covering lock.
jesus...is that how far we've fallen...one of the key criteria for a position is the ability to cover another position for 20mins? how about just being the best fucking 6 in the country and we'll stick another lock on the bench?
Actually, I was specifically responding to your criteria. You were the one who said:
exactly, if we need a lock the SB is ya man....if we need a 6 that can step into lock for the final 20mins...there are better options, this is just fozzie getting blinded by just getting who he considers the best 23 players on the pitch without considering other factors
@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Chris-B Scott Barret is not an experienced 6 at super level, let alone test level. My memory is shit, but has he even had an adequate game at 6 for the AB's?
I'd still rather have him than any other option if the criteria is someone who can cover lock.
If we were just picking an available 6, I'd be happier with Tom Robinson - but, I don't want a bar of him covering lock.
jesus...is that how far we've fallen...one of the key criteria for a position is the ability to cover another position for 20mins? how about just being the best fucking 6 in the country and we'll stick another lock on the bench?
Actually, I was specifically responding to your criteria. You were the one who said:
exactly, if we need a lock the SB is ya man....if we need a 6 that can step into lock for the final 20mins...there are better options, this is just fozzie getting blinded by just getting who he considers the best 23 players on the pitch without considering other factors
thought it was clear what i was saying, but obviously not....if we're looking for a 6 that can cover lock...you still pick a bloody six, you dont move a lock
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Chris-B Scott Barret is not an experienced 6 at super level, let alone test level. My memory is shit, but has he even had an adequate game at 6 for the AB's?
I'd still rather have him than any other option if the criteria is someone who can cover lock.
If we were just picking an available 6, I'd be happier with Tom Robinson - but, I don't want a bar of him covering lock.
jesus...is that how far we've fallen...one of the key criteria for a position is the ability to cover another position for 20mins? how about just being the best fucking 6 in the country and we'll stick another lock on the bench?
Actually, I was specifically responding to your criteria. You were the one who said:
exactly, if we need a lock the SB is ya man....if we need a 6 that can step into lock for the final 20mins...there are better options, this is just fozzie getting blinded by just getting who he considers the best 23 players on the pitch without considering other factors
thought it was clear what i was saying, but obviously not....if we're looking for a 6 that can cover lock...you still pick a bloody six, you dont move a lock
@Kiwiwomble Well, not to belabour the point - I think the idea of having a blindside who covers lock is probably fool's gold.
We learned in Chicago that Kaino wasn't up to the job and if he couldn't do it almost no-one can. Except Pieter-Steph du Toit!
But, if we're going to field someone to do that job, then in my mind Scott Barrett IS the best option.
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@Kiwiwomble Well, not to belabour the point - I think the idea of having a blindside who covers lock is probably fool's gold.
We learned in Chicago that Kaino wasn't up to the job and if he couldn't do it almost no-one can. Except Pieter-Steph du Toit!
But, if we're going to field someone to do that job, then in my mind Scott Barrett IS the best option.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
But, if we're going to field someone to do that job, then in my mind Scott Barrett IS the best option.
Barrett has said himself that pushing in the scrum takes more out your legs at lock, so you could end up blunting the strengths of a mobile 6.
"You actually have an extra gear because you are not right in the engine room of the scrum".
Defending from a scrum will be the biggest adjustment, but work around the field is similar as I don't think he will be in the wider channels like Ioane often is.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
But, if we're going to field someone to do that job, then in my mind Scott Barrett IS the best option.
Barrett has said himself that pushing in the scrum takes more out your legs at lock, so you could end up blunting the strengths of a mobile 6.
"You actually have an extra gear because you are not right in the engine room of the scrum".
Defending from a scrum will be the biggest adjustment, but work around the field is similar as I don't think he will be in the wider channels like Ioane often is.
@Bovidae Yeah - I think that Scott is covering lock is a bit incidental to his selection.
They need a third lineout option and they don't want to risk PGS on debut.
If it's a close game, I'd expect Scott, Retallick and Whitelock all to play big minutes.
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look, picking SB at 6 works if the plan is to play tight and just bully the fuck out of Ireland at set piece and up front
If we pick 6 tight forwards and try and play wide-wide-wide (like a certain game in 2019) then i might be looking for a new TV by the Aussie game
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look, picking SB at 6 works if the plan is to play tight and just bully the fuck out of Ireland at set piece and up front
If we pick 6 tight forwards and try and play wide-wide-wide (like a certain game in 2019) then i might be looking for a new TV by the Aussie game
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
look, picking SB at 6 works if the plan is to play tight and just bully the fuck out of Ireland at set piece and up front
If we pick 6 tight forwards and try and play wide-wide-wide (like a certain game in 2019) then i might be looking for a new TV by the Aussie game
Yeah, I suspect that is what is happening and SB will play nice and tight. I like SB, he has a good work ethic, big motor and is a great lineout option. I just prefer specialists in their positions. The "pictures" the coaches constantly talk about are different between positions and expecting players to quickly adapt just doesn't seem to work that well historically.
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look, picking SB at 6 works if the plan is to play tight and just bully the fuck out of Ireland at set piece and up front
If we pick 6 tight forwards and try and play wide-wide-wide (like a certain game in 2019) then i might be looking for a new TV by the Aussie game
@mariner4life Yeah - as a one-off it's fine. Hopefully the plan for the future is Akira, while we develop PGS.
http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/teamsheet.asp?MT_ID=2315
Hard not to agree with @Tim, that it's pretty concerning to see the number of players from the pack for the 2019 semi still involved (and you KNOW Moody and Nepo would be starting if they were fit). Especially when you recall that we got bullied pretty badly, and that most of our guys will have got older rather than better.
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look, picking SB at 6 works if the plan is to play tight and just bully the fuck out of Ireland at set piece and up front
If we pick 6 tight forwards and try and play wide-wide-wide (like a certain game in 2019) then i might be looking for a new TV by the Aussie game
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
look, picking SB at 6 works if the plan is to play tight and just bully the fuck out of Ireland at set piece and up front
If we pick 6 tight forwards and try and play wide-wide-wide (like a certain game in 2019) then i might be looking for a new TV by the Aussie game
Exactly, if we have a new pattern that wants two big bodies spread across three zones (e.g., Prop, lock; Prop, lock; Hooker, lock) with two of those on the edges being a bit more mobile, then I can see how this might fly:
For example, Edge 1 = Taylor, Retallick; Middle = Bower, Whitelock; Edge 2 = Ofa; Barrett.
But, that could/should indicate some change in pattern/pods. If so, what would be the change?
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
look, picking SB at 6 works if the plan is to play tight and just bully the fuck out of Ireland at set piece and up front
If we pick 6 tight forwards and try and play wide-wide-wide (like a certain game in 2019) then i might be looking for a new TV by the Aussie game
Exactly, if we have a new pattern that wants two big bodies spread across three zones (e.g., Prop, lock; Prop, lock; Hooker, lock) with two of those on the edges being a bit more mobile, then I can see how this might fly:
For example, Edge 1 = Taylor, Retallick; Middle = Bower, Whitelock; Edge 2 = Ofa; Barrett.
But, that could/should indicate some change in pattern/pods. If so, what would be the change?
@gt12 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
look, picking SB at 6 works if the plan is to play tight and just bully the fuck out of Ireland at set piece and up front
If we pick 6 tight forwards and try and play wide-wide-wide (like a certain game in 2019) then i might be looking for a new TV by the Aussie game
Exactly, if we have a new pattern that wants two big bodies spread across three zones (e.g., Prop, lock; Prop, lock; Hooker, lock) with two of those on the edges being a bit more mobile, then I can see how this might fly:
For example, Edge 1 = Taylor, Retallick; Middle = Bower, Whitelock; Edge 2 = Ofa; Barrett.
But, that could/should indicate some change in pattern/pods. If so, what would be the change?
we've been trying to play with structure?
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
look, picking SB at 6 works if the plan is to play tight and just bully the fuck out of Ireland at set piece and up front
If we pick 6 tight forwards and try and play wide-wide-wide (like a certain game in 2019) then i might be looking for a new TV by the Aussie game
Exactly, if we have a new pattern that wants two big bodies spread across three zones (e.g., Prop, lock; Prop, lock; Hooker, lock) with two of those on the edges being a bit more mobile, then I can see how this might fly:
For example, Edge 1 = Taylor, Retallick; Middle = Bower, Whitelock; Edge 2 = Ofa; Barrett.
But, that could/should indicate some change in pattern/pods. If so, what would be the change?
we've been trying to play with structure?
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
look, picking SB at 6 works if the plan is to play tight and just bully the fuck out of Ireland at set piece and up front
If we pick 6 tight forwards and try and play wide-wide-wide (like a certain game in 2019) then i might be looking for a new TV by the Aussie game
Exactly, if we have a new pattern that wants two big bodies spread across three zones (e.g., Prop, lock; Prop, lock; Hooker, lock) with two of those on the edges being a bit more mobile, then I can see how this might fly:
For example, Edge 1 = Taylor, Retallick; Middle = Bower, Whitelock; Edge 2 = Ofa; Barrett.
But, that could/should indicate some change in pattern/pods. If so, what would be the change?
we've been trying to play with structure?
yes. flat off 9 or flat off 10.
passes to groups of flat players meaning shit cleans.
wait for counter attack.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
look, picking SB at 6 works if the plan is to play tight and just bully the fuck out of Ireland at set piece and up front
If we pick 6 tight forwards and try and play wide-wide-wide (like a certain game in 2019) then i might be looking for a new TV by the Aussie game
Exactly, if we have a new pattern that wants two big bodies spread across three zones (e.g., Prop, lock; Prop, lock; Hooker, lock) with two of those on the edges being a bit more mobile, then I can see how this might fly:
For example, Edge 1 = Taylor, Retallick; Middle = Bower, Whitelock; Edge 2 = Ofa; Barrett.
But, that could/should indicate some change in pattern/pods. If so, what would be the change?
we've been trying to play with structure?
yes. flat off 9 or flat off 10.
passes to groups of flat players meaning shit cleans.
wait for counter attack.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
look, picking SB at 6 works if the plan is to play tight and just bully the fuck out of Ireland at set piece and up front
If we pick 6 tight forwards and try and play wide-wide-wide (like a certain game in 2019) then i might be looking for a new TV by the Aussie game
Exactly, if we have a new pattern that wants two big bodies spread across three zones (e.g., Prop, lock; Prop, lock; Hooker, lock) with two of those on the edges being a bit more mobile, then I can see how this might fly:
For example, Edge 1 = Taylor, Retallick; Middle = Bower, Whitelock; Edge 2 = Ofa; Barrett.
But, that could/should indicate some change in pattern/pods. If so, what would be the change?
we've been trying to play with structure?
yes. flat off 9 or flat off 10.
passes to groups of flat players meaning shit cleans.
wait for counter attack.
I wonder if we are thinking to change up from the 2-3-2-1 and the pod with the flat pass, to something new.
Or, maybe the red box and 2nd '2' is too light and they want a bigger body there?
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as with everything, the "how" of any "setup" is far less important than the "why".
Why are we spread across the field? who or what are we trying to isolate? Phases without purpose are useless.
