Super Rugby 2023
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@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Crucial make sense i guess but also pretty nit picky, there are several balls knocking about, think it would be a VERY rare occurrence for a ballkid to not be right there ready to give a kicker the ball, like we've added all this fine print to the laws trying to speed things....but its just extra complexity
I get what you are saying but I guess that the 'same ball' part gives the ref (or time clock) certainty on when to start the countdown.
Try is awarded = clock startsUse a second ball and there is no governance on the time between the try being awarded and the start of the clock. Also kicker gets to choose where the kick is from so you'd potentially have a ball being delivered to start the clock but maybe not where the kicker wants it.
I do agree that 90 seems a long time but also think that if you are going to use a clock then the process has to be clear.
At times when a TMO is involved the kicker will effectively have 90 seconds if they pre-empt the decision. That should be cut to 60 .
@Crucial yeah, i guess i just come from the other side, just make take the rule (60 sec from try being awarded)...and thats it work out the rest on the field, so kickers will just get use to looking for the closest ball kid as soon as a try is scored. a very simple rule and let the player work out the rest
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@Dan54 In principle, yes, but changing a yellow into a red gives the TMO a huge power that can seriously impact games. Thinking of the terribly biased TMOs we've seen in games in the not too distant past (especially some South African TMOs who blatantly influenced or tried to influence the outcome of games), extra care should be taken that the TMO isn't only technically good at his job, but also impartial. And no room for pedantic types.
@Stargazer said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Dan54 In principle, yes, but changing a yellow into a red gives the TMO a huge power that can seriously impact games. Thinking of the terribly biased TMOs we've seen in games in the not too distant past (especially some South African TMOs who blatantly influenced or tried to influence the outcome of games), extra care should be taken that the TMO isn't only technically good at his job, but also impartial. And no room for pedantic types.
Yep I must admit I do have those doubts a little too Star, and a little bit of discomfort about it being the ref who has the final say, and this oerhaps takes it away from him a bit.
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@Crucial yeah, i guess i just come from the other side, just make take the rule (60 sec from try being awarded)...and thats it work out the rest on the field, so kickers will just get use to looking for the closest ball kid as soon as a try is scored. a very simple rule and let the player work out the rest
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Crucial yeah, i guess i just come from the other side, just make take the rule (60 sec from try being awarded)...and thats it work out the rest on the field, so kickers will just get use to looking for the closest ball kid as soon as a try is scored. a very simple rule and let the player work out the rest
I'm just thinking through real scenarios. It would end up looking really stupid if there was a stadium countdown clock that runs out but the ref ignores it because of some mixup with a ball being made available or two balls arrive etc.
It is much clearer for the crowd, the players and viewers if the clock starts from try being awarded and the onus is on players to give the kicker the ball.
My only tweak would be that if there is a TMO involvement then the kicker has only 60 seconds. -
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Crucial yeah, i guess i just come from the other side, just make take the rule (60 sec from try being awarded)...and thats it work out the rest on the field, so kickers will just get use to looking for the closest ball kid as soon as a try is scored. a very simple rule and let the player work out the rest
I'm just thinking through real scenarios. It would end up looking really stupid if there was a stadium countdown clock that runs out but the ref ignores it because of some mixup with a ball being made available or two balls arrive etc.
It is much clearer for the crowd, the players and viewers if the clock starts from try being awarded and the onus is on players to give the kicker the ball.
My only tweak would be that if there is a TMO involvement then the kicker has only 60 seconds.@Crucial fair enough, i just dont think that would happen, i just cant think that someone wouldn't find one of the several balls knocking around and give it to the kicker, and i think 99% of the time a ball kid would run straight out with one, but i know my preference for less and more simplistic laws is not a universal one so all good
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@Bovidae have to say, i dont get the whole "have to use the ball the try was scored with" they should all be the same etc, kind of seems like a this contrived rule...just because
happy to have a time limit and 60 sec seems enough but just give them a ball and lets get on with it
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Bovidae have to say, i dont get the whole "have to use the ball the try was scored with" they should all be the same etc, kind of seems like a this contrived rule...just because
happy to have a time limit and 60 sec seems enough but just give them a ball and lets get on with it
I questioned this a while ago and someone said the rule came about following the 2003 world cup (I think) where a team (possibly England) got an advantage when they used a dry ball to make a crucial conversion. I guess using the same ball negates the advantage.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Bovidae have to say, i dont get the whole "have to use the ball the try was scored with" they should all be the same etc, kind of seems like a this contrived rule...just because
happy to have a time limit and 60 sec seems enough but just give them a ball and lets get on with it
I questioned this a while ago and someone said the rule came about following the 2003 world cup (I think) where a team (possibly England) got an advantage when they used a dry ball to make a crucial conversion. I guess using the same ball negates the advantage.
@Crazy-Horse said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Bovidae have to say, i dont get the whole "have to use the ball the try was scored with" they should all be the same etc, kind of seems like a this contrived rule...just because
happy to have a time limit and 60 sec seems enough but just give them a ball and lets get on with it
I questioned this a while ago and someone said the rule came about following the 2003 world cup (I think) where a team (possibly England) got an advantage when they used a dry ball to make a crucial conversion. I guess using the same ball negates the advantage.
To the same 'gamesmanship' if you went down the path of @Kiwiwomble then the opportunity for 'deliberate' mucking around also opens up a can of worms.
The path of simplicity is often to have a very clear and workable rule with little risk of alteration.
The same ball rule means that there is little to no excuse for a 'lost' or 'delayed' ball. -
all fair points that make sense, to me just seem like such minors things, you can quickly dry the ball the try was scored with (i know not as much as one thats been on the sideline), both teams also have that ability so its still fair, so to create a law in response to rare instances of minor advantage seems very reactionary, id rather world rugby just stood strong..."those are the rules" rather than tweaking things when people complained someone had an advantage....yes, that dry ball was a very slight advantage in that moment...thats the game, we give the attacking team all kinds of advantages and protections
and re team gaming things....if you can prove it on camera for example, fine and ban them later rather than changing the on field rules to effect off field activities
as i say, happy to acknowledge thats just me
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I don't think any of this is changing rules. Just enforcing them.
Currently the law is 90 secs from awarding try. That covers many scenarios without having to make allowances/judgements by the ref.
Here's a very real and regular scenario.
Kicker either scores try or is caught up in scoring 'pile'. Ref awards try. 10 seconds disappears while kicker extricates themselves from pile and then more time while he walks back to mark and tee/ball arrive (tee possibly from far side of field). Catch breath and there is 60 secs left to go through routine and kick ball. None of that is time wasting and ball probably kicked with 15 secs to spare.
Now if you made it 60 secs from awarding try it is quite likely that the kicker has a very hurried routine that saves everyone 15 secs.I am as anti time wasting as anyone but I don't see that there is anything to be gained by 60 second kicks if measured from award of try unless the awarding was due to TMO.
It is far better than 60 secs from tee arriving which leaves a long gap of potential mucking around and no urgency from tee carrier, ref or player. This law puts the onus on players to get on with the game as should be the case.
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I don't think any of this is changing rules. Just enforcing them.
Currently the law is 90 secs from awarding try. That covers many scenarios without having to make allowances/judgements by the ref.
Here's a very real and regular scenario.
Kicker either scores try or is caught up in scoring 'pile'. Ref awards try. 10 seconds disappears while kicker extricates themselves from pile and then more time while he walks back to mark and tee/ball arrive (tee possibly from far side of field). Catch breath and there is 60 secs left to go through routine and kick ball. None of that is time wasting and ball probably kicked with 15 secs to spare.
Now if you made it 60 secs from awarding try it is quite likely that the kicker has a very hurried routine that saves everyone 15 secs.I am as anti time wasting as anyone but I don't see that there is anything to be gained by 60 second kicks if measured from award of try unless the awarding was due to TMO.
It is far better than 60 secs from tee arriving which leaves a long gap of potential mucking around and no urgency from tee carrier, ref or player. This law puts the onus on players to get on with the game as should be the case.
@Crucial sorry, poorly worded, i mean the original "use the ball the try was scored with" ....i digressed from the new rules
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@Daffy-Jaffy Are the 3 early games all women's and the 6pm game men?
@Nepia yep
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They've done well with organising the round 1 matchups this year.
Crusaders-Chiefs should be a cracker
Tahs-Brumbies supposedly expecting a crowd of 30k+ at the rennovated SFS
Highlanders-Blues during O Week should see the Zoo pumping.
Be interesting what sort of crowd the Reds-Canes will get up in Townsville.
A good way to kick off the comp.
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They've done well with organising the round 1 matchups this year.
Crusaders-Chiefs should be a cracker
Tahs-Brumbies supposedly expecting a crowd of 30k+ at the rennovated SFS
Highlanders-Blues during O Week should see the Zoo pumping.
Be interesting what sort of crowd the Reds-Canes will get up in Townsville.
A good way to kick off the comp.
@KiwiMurph said in Super Rugby 2023:
Be interesting what sort of crowd the Reds-Canes will get up in Townsville.
It takes a special lack of intellect to schedule a rugby game in Townsville this time of year.
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@KiwiMurph said in Super Rugby 2023:
Be interesting what sort of crowd the Reds-Canes will get up in Townsville.
It takes a special lack of intellect to schedule a rugby game in Townsville this time of year.
@antipodean said in Super Rugby 2023:
@KiwiMurph said in Super Rugby 2023:
Be interesting what sort of crowd the Reds-Canes will get up in Townsville.
It takes a special lack of intellect to schedule a rugby game in Townsville this time of year.
I think the Canes will be picking the most mobile pack they can in what will sure to be a hot affair up there.
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Three players to watch.
Im keen to have a good look at Fabian Holland. After all the hype
And to see how Love develops if he gets game time at FB. And maybe a run at 1st at times. But he would need a big improvement to his previous starts at first in super rugby. Although he was too young then and not really suited to first but Canes at not strong in this position. Ever since Barrett left. And Cameron starts the year injured so still not strong with only an up and down Morgan and a new player (Godfrey)
Super Rugby never fails to deliver in promoting young talent. Who's a player you have tabbed to make a move in '23?
Hinton: There’s something about Blues flanker Anton Segner that exudes top-end class. He will have to be patient around opportunities in a loose trio with three All Blacks, but this is a kid with all the tools, and set to be an important figure over the next cycle. Watch him come of age.
Cully: Highlanders lock Fabian Holland, although the All Blacks won't get their hands on the 20-year-old Dutchman until ‘25. Holland is out early with a knee injury, but when fit he'll be in the Highlanders' 23. He's big, mobile, learns quickly and competes hard for every inch on either side of the ball.
Knowler: Ruben Love will be worth watching. Injury will delay his start with the Hurricanes, but if the fullback/first-five builds on his performances with Wellington in the NPC last year, and later the All Blacks XV up north, you can expect him to feature in punters’ conversations.
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Couple of players I think will be hitting their straps AND get enough game time to show the goods are Stevenson and ENS.
Both had it rough selection wise last year but then SS fired for the rep end of the year. ENS looks to have grown into himself and may just show what he is capable of.Edit: add Aumua to that list. A good season and he gets to go to the RWC.
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Couple of players I think will be hitting their straps AND get enough game time to show the goods are Stevenson and ENS.
Both had it rough selection wise last year but then SS fired for the rep end of the year. ENS looks to have grown into himself and may just show what he is capable of.Edit: add Aumua to that list. A good season and he gets to go to the RWC.
@Crucial said in Super Rugby 2023:
Couple of players I think will be hitting their straps AND get enough game time to show the goods are Stevenson and ENS.
Both had it rough selection wise last year but then SS fired for the rep end of the year. ENS looks to have grown into himself and may just show what he is capable of.Edit: add Aumua to that list. A good season and he gets to go to the RWC.
Aumua is about the only other Canes forward who might make it (but he will replace another 1 in Coles). Lakai for the future but a year too early for him.
