Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2
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@taniwharugby touch the halfback before he picks up the ball? penalty.
FWIW i always thought that if you were in the ruck you were "onside" and therefore this play was all good once TJP picks up the ball.
But as i said, i wouldn't be surprised to find out i was wrong.
@mariner4life said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
touch the halfback before he picks up the ball? penalty.
yeah usually only the guy with 9 on his jersey, someone else steps in to play 9, fair game...but yeah theres that as well.
The other issue with 9s is interpretation as to when they are fair game...I know it used to be hands on, ball is out, you clear quickly, now, so much adjusting goes on at the back, with hands, feet etc, hands on for a second while assessing options....
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@mariner4life said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
touch the halfback before he picks up the ball? penalty.
yeah usually only the guy with 9 on his jersey, someone else steps in to play 9, fair game...but yeah theres that as well.
The other issue with 9s is interpretation as to when they are fair game...I know it used to be hands on, ball is out, you clear quickly, now, so much adjusting goes on at the back, with hands, feet etc, hands on for a second while assessing options....
@taniwharugby said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
@mariner4life said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
touch the halfback before he picks up the ball? penalty.
yeah usually only the guy with 9 on his jersey, someone else steps in to play 9, fair game...but yeah theres that as well.
The other issue with 9s is interpretation as to when they are fair game...I know it used to be hands on, ball is out, you clear quickly, now, so much adjusting goes on at the back, with hands, feet etc, hands on for a second while assessing options....
...and for a while to get around this exact situation being unclear the refs ruled that the ball had to be clear of the ruck not just lifted.
If that ruling is correct then no wonder we see the stupid caterpillars and the halfback rolling the ball back that we all hate.
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Law 15.4, .5, .6, .8 and .18:
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Each team has an offside line that runs parallel to the goal line through the hindmost point of any ruck participant. If that point is on or behind the goal line, the offside line for that team is the goal line.
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An arriving player must be on their feet and join from behind their offside line.
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A player may join alongside but not in front of the hindmost player.
So that covers establishment of the offside line and how to join the ruck.
- Players must join the ruck or retire behind their offside line immediately.
Join or retire behind the offside line.
- The ruck ends and play continues when the ball leaves the ruck or when the ball in the ruck is on or over the goal line.
Ruck has ended. Offside line no longer exists, hence how defenders may move forward after the ruck has ended.
So Law 10.9 comes into effect.
- A player who is offside at a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout remains offside, even after the ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended.
McCloskey is never offside.
@antipodean said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
- A player who is offside at a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout remains offside, even after the ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended.
To me the word "at" seems to apply to those not actually participating "in" the ruck ie the defensive line including guard dogs. If you are part of a ruck that you joined from behind the hindmost foot then you cannot be offside provided you are still bound
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@antipodean said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
- A player who is offside at a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout remains offside, even after the ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended.
To me the word "at" seems to apply to those not actually participating "in" the ruck ie the defensive line including guard dogs. If you are part of a ruck that you joined from behind the hindmost foot then you cannot be offside provided you are still bound
@Higgins said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
@antipodean said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
- A player who is offside at a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout remains offside, even after the ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended.
To me the word "at" seems to apply to those not actually participating "in" the ruck ie the defensive line including guard dogs. If you are part of a ruck that you joined from behind the hindmost foot then you cannot be offside provided you are still bound
Agreed - otherwise if a defender on the ground moves backwards, or you fight your way forwards through a ruck, somehow you're now offside. That makes even less sense.
If you join a ruck legally, you're onside. And once that ruck ends, you're onside.
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@Higgins said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
@antipodean said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
- A player who is offside at a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout remains offside, even after the ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended.
To me the word "at" seems to apply to those not actually participating "in" the ruck ie the defensive line including guard dogs. If you are part of a ruck that you joined from behind the hindmost foot then you cannot be offside provided you are still bound
Agreed - otherwise if a defender on the ground moves backwards, or you fight your way forwards through a ruck, somehow you're now offside. That makes even less sense.
If you join a ruck legally, you're onside. And once that ruck ends, you're onside.
@antipodean said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
or you fight your way forwards through a ruck, somehow you're now offside
like you can in a maul...
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Another set of ratings can be found here:
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/maori-all-blacks-player-ratings-vs-ireland-2/
@KiwiMurph said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
Another set of ratings can be found here:
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/maori-all-blacks-player-ratings-vs-ireland-2/
These ratings are better. But still the 2nd 5 and centre score low
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@antipodean said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
- A player who is offside at a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout remains offside, even after the ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended.
To me the word "at" seems to apply to those not actually participating "in" the ruck ie the defensive line including guard dogs. If you are part of a ruck that you joined from behind the hindmost foot then you cannot be offside provided you are still bound
@Higgins said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
@antipodean said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
- A player who is offside at a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout remains offside, even after the ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended.
To me the word "at" seems to apply to those not actually participating "in" the ruck ie the defensive line including guard dogs. If you are part of a ruck that you joined from behind the hindmost foot then you cannot be offside provided you are still bound
I have no idea on the ruling. I'm just upset those of you who know the rules are just as confused as I am.
But on the English: to me at means connected to, on the spot.
If they meant people not part of the ruck they should have said by, or next to. Not at.
If you are at the hospital you aren't in the building next door. -
@Higgins said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
@antipodean said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
- A player who is offside at a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout remains offside, even after the ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended.
To me the word "at" seems to apply to those not actually participating "in" the ruck ie the defensive line including guard dogs. If you are part of a ruck that you joined from behind the hindmost foot then you cannot be offside provided you are still bound
I have no idea on the ruling. I'm just upset those of you who know the rules are just as confused as I am.
But on the English: to me at means connected to, on the spot.
If they meant people not part of the ruck they should have said by, or next to. Not at.
If you are at the hospital you aren't in the building next door.@nostrildamus said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
@Higgins said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
@antipodean said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
- A player who is offside at a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout remains offside, even after the ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended.
To me the word "at" seems to apply to those not actually participating "in" the ruck ie the defensive line including guard dogs. If you are part of a ruck that you joined from behind the hindmost foot then you cannot be offside provided you are still bound
I have no idea on the ruling. I'm just upset those of you who know the rules are just as confused as me.
But on the English: to me at means connected to, on the spot.
If they meant people not part of the ruck they should have said by, or next to. Not at.
If you are at the hospital you aren't in the building next door.By at in this instance. They mean - at the time of, not at the place of.
E.g. you are a winger a retreating after a failed kick chase. The kick receipt forms a ruck and you are still retiring 20m offside at the time of the ruck. You are still offside when that ruck finishes and the oppositon pass it to you while you are in their backline.
Rules should be written in language, not English, with a smaller less vague vocabulary. English is great for poetry, terrible for ruby laws ....
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@nostrildamus said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
@Higgins said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
@antipodean said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
- A player who is offside at a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout remains offside, even after the ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended.
To me the word "at" seems to apply to those not actually participating "in" the ruck ie the defensive line including guard dogs. If you are part of a ruck that you joined from behind the hindmost foot then you cannot be offside provided you are still bound
I have no idea on the ruling. I'm just upset those of you who know the rules are just as confused as me.
But on the English: to me at means connected to, on the spot.
If they meant people not part of the ruck they should have said by, or next to. Not at.
If you are at the hospital you aren't in the building next door.By at in this instance. They mean - at the time of, not at the place of.
E.g. you are a winger a retreating after a failed kick chase. The kick receipt forms a ruck and you are still retiring 20m offside at the time of the ruck. You are still offside when that ruck finishes and the oppositon pass it to you while you are in their backline.
Rules should be written in language, not English, with a smaller less vague vocabulary. English is great for poetry, terrible for ruby laws ....
@Rapido said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
@nostrildamus said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
@Higgins said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
@antipodean said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
- A player who is offside at a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout remains offside, even after the ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended.
To me the word "at" seems to apply to those not actually participating "in" the ruck ie the defensive line including guard dogs. If you are part of a ruck that you joined from behind the hindmost foot then you cannot be offside provided you are still bound
I have no idea on the ruling. I'm just upset those of you who know the rules are just as confused as me.
But on the English: to me at means connected to, on the spot.
If they meant people not part of the ruck they should have said by, or next to. Not at.
If you are at the hospital you aren't in the building next door.By at in this instance. They mean - at the time of, not at the place of.
E.g. you are a winger a retreating after a failed kick chase. The kick receipt forms a ruck and you are still retiring 20m offside at the time of the ruck. You are still offside when that ruck finishes and the oppisiton pass it to you while you are in their backline.
Rules should be written in language, not Engliosh, with a smaller less vague vocabulary. English is great for poetry, terrible for ruby laws ....
I see. But it is not exactly intuitive.
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@nostrildamus said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
@Higgins said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
@antipodean said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
- A player who is offside at a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout remains offside, even after the ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended.
To me the word "at" seems to apply to those not actually participating "in" the ruck ie the defensive line including guard dogs. If you are part of a ruck that you joined from behind the hindmost foot then you cannot be offside provided you are still bound
I have no idea on the ruling. I'm just upset those of you who know the rules are just as confused as me.
But on the English: to me at means connected to, on the spot.
If they meant people not part of the ruck they should have said by, or next to. Not at.
If you are at the hospital you aren't in the building next door.By at in this instance. They mean - at the time of, not at the place of.
E.g. you are a winger a retreating after a failed kick chase. The kick receipt forms a ruck and you are still retiring 20m offside at the time of the ruck. You are still offside when that ruck finishes and the oppositon pass it to you while you are in their backline.
Rules should be written in language, not English, with a smaller less vague vocabulary. English is great for poetry, terrible for ruby laws ....
@Rapido but the off-side line is determined by the place of the ruck, or more importantly, the last foot at the place of the ruck, not at the of time the ruck or the time of the foot being at the back...
So more ambiguity?
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@Crucial @antipodean this situation is problematic on several fronts because of how other the ruck is officiating more generally.
He joins the ruck from an onside position. He leans on bodies in that ruck so that means he is part of the ruck / off his feet so can’t play the ball. He doesn’t play the ball but makes a play for the halfback in an attempted tackle (there’s no other way to describe that because he isn’t driving over the ball).
In all my knowledge of the game a player needs to come from an onside position to make a tackle in that situation.
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@Crucial @antipodean this situation is problematic on several fronts because of how other the ruck is officiating more generally.
He joins the ruck from an onside position. He leans on bodies in that ruck so that means he is part of the ruck / off his feet so can’t play the ball. He doesn’t play the ball but makes a play for the halfback in an attempted tackle (there’s no other way to describe that because he isn’t driving over the ball).
In all my knowledge of the game a player needs to come from an onside position to make a tackle in that situation.
@ACT-Crusader said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
@Crucial @antipodean this situation is problematic on several fronts because of how other the ruck is officiating more generally.
He joins the ruck from an onside position. He leans on bodies in that ruck so that means he is part of the ruck / off his feet so can’t play the ball. He doesn’t play the ball but makes a play for the halfback in an attempted tackle (there’s no other way to describe that because he isn’t driving over the ball).
In all my knowledge of the game a player needs to come from an onside position to make a tackle in that situation.
I believe I covered that earlier - he's always onside. What I find contentious is the perception he can't play the ball which is out of the ruck.
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@Stargazer said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
insert Bill Cosby meme here ^^^^
after searching rugby laws all morning and failing, I have no energy to find a meme lol
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Despite TJP's slow delivery, the MABs have created enough opportunities to win this game by +20. At this level, when you miss so many opportunities, a win is not conceivable. Don't blame Dickson's very poor refereeing for this defeat, the Maoris should have won this one easily. I am among those who think that Zarn Sullivan and Suafoa's absences did not help their cause.
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Despite TJP's slow delivery, the MABs have created enough opportunities to win this game by +20. At this level, when you miss so many opportunities, a win is not conceivable. Don't blame Dickson's very poor refereeing for this defeat, the Maoris should have won this one easily. I am among those who think that Zarn Sullivan and Suafoa's absences did not help their cause.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
@Crucial @antipodean this situation is problematic on several fronts because of how other the ruck is officiating more generally.
He joins the ruck from an onside position. He leans on bodies in that ruck so that means he is part of the ruck / off his feet so can’t play the ball. He doesn’t play the ball but makes a play for the halfback in an attempted tackle (there’s no other way to describe that because he isn’t driving over the ball).
In all my knowledge of the game a player needs to come from an onside position to make a tackle in that situation.
I believe I covered that earlier - he's always onside. What I find contentious is the perception he can't play the ball which is out of the ruck.
@antipodean said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
@ACT-Crusader said in Māori All Blacks v Ireland 2:
@Crucial @antipodean this situation is problematic on several fronts because of how other the ruck is officiating more generally.
He joins the ruck from an onside position. He leans on bodies in that ruck so that means he is part of the ruck / off his feet so can’t play the ball. He doesn’t play the ball but makes a play for the halfback in an attempted tackle (there’s no other way to describe that because he isn’t driving over the ball).
In all my knowledge of the game a player needs to come from an onside position to make a tackle in that situation.
I believe I covered that earlier - he's always onside. What I find contentious is the perception he can't play the ball which is out of the ruck.
What constitutes being part of the ruck? Isn't he "unbound" therefore offside? Or is that only mauls?
