All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider
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Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?
Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.
We can debate the foul play aspect all day long but both teams play under the same rules and smart teams will adapt and train players not to jump into charge downs. Try to get lower etc etc.
I am still slightly cynical just how much a difference coaching can make to these instincts and fast paced decisions but at some point, someone like Ofa, SB are ticking bombs in terms of cards.
Edit: O'Gara also said he instantly knew the Savea sub was an error and was surprised Foster and Co let it happen.
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Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?
Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.
We can debate the foul play aspect all day long but both teams play under the same rules and smart teams will adapt and train players not to jump into charge downs. Try to get lower etc etc.
I am still slightly cynical just how much a difference coaching can make to these instincts and fast paced decisions but at some point, someone like Ofa, SB are ticking bombs in terms of cards.
Edit: O'Gara also said he instantly knew the Savea sub was an error and was surprised Foster and Co let it happen.
@chimoaus the fact so many seem comfortable, some even happy with red cards for accidental contact is a worry for me.
I saw on social media plenty saying LF shoulda been red...no way.
The drum I bang is reds are for filth, not accidental contacts through mis timing a jump, turning into a contact, bracing for a contact, the attacker dipping at the last moment...there has to be a better way.
Players do need to do better, coaches need to do better, refs and WR need to do better.
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@chimoaus the fact so many seem comfortable, some even happy with red cards for accidental contact is a worry for me.
I saw on social media plenty saying LF shoulda been red...no way.
The drum I bang is reds are for filth, not accidental contacts through mis timing a jump, turning into a contact, bracing for a contact, the attacker dipping at the last moment...there has to be a better way.
Players do need to do better, coaches need to do better, refs and WR need to do better.
@taniwharugby Agree 100% but what we deem as foul play is different to WR and we need to play by the rules. I would assume as a coach you would be telling your players not to jump charge downs, don't try intercepts that are not on, tackle players without the ball etc. The head contact is always tough as AT was caught in a bad position, could he have done more? I don't know but the fact is under the rules AT was a red card.
I am just trying to think is there a smarter way to play under current rules to reduce the risk of cards.
Edit: I look forward to seeing what the judiciary outcome is for AT.
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@taniwharugby Agree 100% but what we deem as foul play is different to WR and we need to play by the rules. I would assume as a coach you would be telling your players not to jump charge downs, don't try intercepts that are not on, tackle players without the ball etc. The head contact is always tough as AT was caught in a bad position, could he have done more? I don't know but the fact is under the rules AT was a red card.
I am just trying to think is there a smarter way to play under current rules to reduce the risk of cards.
Edit: I look forward to seeing what the judiciary outcome is for AT.
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
The head contact is always tough as AT was caught in a bad position, could he have done more? I don't know but the fact is under the rules AT was a red card.
That is the problem, the rules are his is def a Red, but given how that happened, how quickly that happened, I am not sure much could have been done to mitigate, for either party involved, and yep, what happens to him at the judiciary will be very interesting.
Again, if you read social media, people say Reds for that kind of contact is a must to protect players...people need to realise accidents happen, no matter if you do everything correctly and within your contrrol.
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Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?
Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.
We can debate the foul play aspect all day long but both teams play under the same rules and smart teams will adapt and train players not to jump into charge downs. Try to get lower etc etc.
I am still slightly cynical just how much a difference coaching can make to these instincts and fast paced decisions but at some point, someone like Ofa, SB are ticking bombs in terms of cards.
Edit: O'Gara also said he instantly knew the Savea sub was an error and was surprised Foster and Co let it happen.
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?
Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.
We can debate the foul play aspect all day long but both teams play under the same rules and smart teams will adapt and train players not to jump into charge downs. Try to get lower etc etc.
I am still slightly cynical just how much a difference coaching can make to these instincts and fast paced decisions but at some point, someone like Ofa, SB are ticking bombs in terms of cards.
Edit: O'Gara also said he instantly knew the Savea sub was an error and was surprised Foster and Co let it happen.
Like I say. It's funny how often the same faces pop up - and the faces that never pop up. And yet it's zero fault of the players and all the blame lays at the feet of the officials. Go figure. I wonder why they never punish those guys that never do anything wrong even though it's unavoidable...
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Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?
Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.
We can debate the foul play aspect all day long but both teams play under the same rules and smart teams will adapt and train players not to jump into charge downs. Try to get lower etc etc.
I am still slightly cynical just how much a difference coaching can make to these instincts and fast paced decisions but at some point, someone like Ofa, SB are ticking bombs in terms of cards.
Edit: O'Gara also said he instantly knew the Savea sub was an error and was surprised Foster and Co let it happen.
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?
20 minute red cards may help the Super Rugby spectacle but they don't help prepare for test matches that don't have them. It doesn't help change behaviour. It's also hard to give this AB coaching group the benefit of the doubt regarding coaching the players to avoid cards given how they coach other aspects of the team.
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Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?
Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.
We can debate the foul play aspect all day long but both teams play under the same rules and smart teams will adapt and train players not to jump into charge downs. Try to get lower etc etc.
I am still slightly cynical just how much a difference coaching can make to these instincts and fast paced decisions but at some point, someone like Ofa, SB are ticking bombs in terms of cards.
Edit: O'Gara also said he instantly knew the Savea sub was an error and was surprised Foster and Co let it happen.
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?
Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.
I agree Leicester could have been red, but to say he didn't have a problem with Angus' red card has to be disingenuous. That or he wants WR to apply his playing days' approach to physical contact.
It's opinions like his that are making a mockery of rugby.
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Here’s the team I think they’ll go with. No chance of mass changes or Cane being dropped.
- Bower
- Taukei’aho
- Ofa
- Retallick
- Va’ai
- Barrett
- Cane
- Ardie
- Smith
- Beaudy
- Reece
- Goodhue
- Reiko
- Jordan
- Barrett
Res - Tu’unukuafe, Taylor, Nepo, Patty, Papali’i, Christie, Mo’unga, Tupaea
I’d love Akira to start but he hasn’t played in like a month? This assuming Whitelock is unavailable and Va’ai is fit.
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Here’s the team I think they’ll go with. No chance of mass changes or Cane being dropped.
- Bower
- Taukei’aho
- Ofa
- Retallick
- Va’ai
- Barrett
- Cane
- Ardie
- Smith
- Beaudy
- Reece
- Goodhue
- Reiko
- Jordan
- Barrett
Res - Tu’unukuafe, Taylor, Nepo, Patty, Papali’i, Christie, Mo’unga, Tupaea
I’d love Akira to start but he hasn’t played in like a month? This assuming Whitelock is unavailable and Va’ai is fit.
@TheMojoman That looks about right but I reckon Havili is a better chance of the 23 jersey given his versatility.
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?
Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.
We can debate the foul play aspect all day long but both teams play under the same rules and smart teams will adapt and train players not to jump into charge downs. Try to get lower etc etc.
I am still slightly cynical just how much a difference coaching can make to these instincts and fast paced decisions but at some point, someone like Ofa, SB are ticking bombs in terms of cards.
Edit: O'Gara also said he instantly knew the Savea sub was an error and was surprised Foster and Co let it happen.
Like I say. It's funny how often the same faces pop up - and the faces that never pop up. And yet it's zero fault of the players and all the blame lays at the feet of the officials. Go figure. I wonder why they never punish those guys that never do anything wrong even though it's unavoidable...
@Bones has AT been carded for that sort of thing before? I can't recall. And LF?
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@Bones has AT been carded for that sort of thing before? I can't recall. And LF?
@Crazy-Horse I don't remember Ta'avao ever having issues with tackle height before. And he is a tall prop.
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@Bones has AT been carded for that sort of thing before? I can't recall. And LF?
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@Bones has AT been carded for that sort of thing before? I can't recall. And LF?
I don't know, but charging at a ball carrier at full height isn't often going to end well.
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?
Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.
I agree Leicester could have been red, but to say he didn't have a problem with Angus' red card has to be disingenuous. That or he wants WR to apply his playing days' approach to physical contact.
It's opinions like his that are making a mockery of rugby.
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?
Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.
I agree Leicester could have been red, but to say he didn't have a problem with Angus' red card has to be disingenuous. That or he wants WR to apply his playing days' approach to physical contact.
It's opinions like his that are making a mockery of rugby.
I don't think he was giving his opinion on if he believes it should be red, just that under current WR guidelines it was Red. There is a difference, and I guess a good coach is going to coach to the WR guidelines, not on their opinion.
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Official's
New Zealand v Ireland
Referee: Wayne Barnes (RFU)
ARs: Karl Dickson (RFU) & Christophe Ridley (RFU)
TMO: Tom Foley (RFUHave to say I'm pretty keen to see Barnes in the middle after his performance in the MAB vs IRE 1st Test. I thought he managed that game well.
@Mattasaurus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Official's
New Zealand v Ireland
Referee: Wayne Barnes (RFU)
ARs: Karl Dickson (RFU) & Christophe Ridley (RFU)
TMO: Tom Foley (RFUHave to say I'm pretty keen to see Barnes in the middle after his performance in the MAB vs IRE 1st Test. I thought he managed that game well.
Me too mate, I actually like the way Barnes refs, from what I have seen of him in NH comp looks to be a reasonably calm ref.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?
Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.
I agree Leicester could have been red, but to say he didn't have a problem with Angus' red card has to be disingenuous. That or he wants WR to apply his playing days' approach to physical contact.
It's opinions like his that are making a mockery of rugby.
I don't think he was giving his opinion on if he believes it should be red, just that under current WR guidelines it was Red. There is a difference, and I guess a good coach is going to coach to the WR guidelines, not on their opinion.
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?
Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.
I agree Leicester could have been red, but to say he didn't have a problem with Angus' red card has to be disingenuous. That or he wants WR to apply his playing days' approach to physical contact.
It's opinions like his that are making a mockery of rugby.
I don't think he was giving his opinion on if he believes it should be red, just that under current WR guidelines it was Red. There is a difference, and I guess a good coach is going to coach to the WR guidelines, not on their opinion.
I read it as he was giving us his opinion after he said Leicester's card could've been red. Telling us that something is what it was (Angus getting a red card) is simply stating a fact, not an insight.
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Here’s the team I think they’ll go with. No chance of mass changes or Cane being dropped.
- Bower
- Taukei’aho
- Ofa
- Retallick
- Va’ai
- Barrett
- Cane
- Ardie
- Smith
- Beaudy
- Reece
- Goodhue
- Reiko
- Jordan
- Barrett
Res - Tu’unukuafe, Taylor, Nepo, Patty, Papali’i, Christie, Mo’unga, Tupaea
I’d love Akira to start but he hasn’t played in like a month? This assuming Whitelock is unavailable and Va’ai is fit.
@TheMojoman said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Here’s the team I think they’ll go with. No chance of mass changes or Cane being dropped.
- Bower
- Taukei’aho
- Ofa
- Retallick
- Va’ai
- Barrett
- Cane
- Ardie
- Smith
- Beaudy
- Reece
- Goodhue
- Reiko
- Jordan
- Barrett
Res - Tu’unukuafe, Taylor, Nepo, Patty, Papali’i, Christie, Mo’unga, Tupaea
I’d love Akira to start but he hasn’t played in like a month? This assuming Whitelock is unavailable and Va’ai is fit.
He came back firing in SR after a long layoff, so not a player that needs a lot gametime to make an impact.
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Looks like SW will be available. So there will be no need to find a place for PT in the 23. I’ve nothing against the guy but he is simply not an attacking or defensive lineout option at the highest level.
So the coaches have to decide if they want 3 locks in the starting XV like test 1. POM is a fantastic lineout option for Ireland both on own and opposition ball so one of the loosies has to be capable IMO. Otherwise they can throw to him on attack and we are obliged to use a lock on our own ball which Ryan and to a lesser extent beirne will attack.
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
So who else is going to the test on Saturday?
I’m going to see the well coached team in black on Tues (Currently in the Koru lounge downing free beers), but have to be back up north for a St John course on the weekend, so no ABs for me, sadly
