All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider
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Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?
Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.
We can debate the foul play aspect all day long but both teams play under the same rules and smart teams will adapt and train players not to jump into charge downs. Try to get lower etc etc.
I am still slightly cynical just how much a difference coaching can make to these instincts and fast paced decisions but at some point, someone like Ofa, SB are ticking bombs in terms of cards.
Edit: O'Gara also said he instantly knew the Savea sub was an error and was surprised Foster and Co let it happen.
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?
Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.
We can debate the foul play aspect all day long but both teams play under the same rules and smart teams will adapt and train players not to jump into charge downs. Try to get lower etc etc.
I am still slightly cynical just how much a difference coaching can make to these instincts and fast paced decisions but at some point, someone like Ofa, SB are ticking bombs in terms of cards.
Edit: O'Gara also said he instantly knew the Savea sub was an error and was surprised Foster and Co let it happen.
Been saying this for some time now.
This is a coaching decision and a player execution problem.
If a coach categorically tells his charges ‘inside the 22 don’t even think about trying to intercept a pass with one hand’ then the coaching team has determined that the reward of an interception and negating a try scoring opportunity is far outweighed by a penalty and YC at least, penalty try and YC at most PLUS playing the next 10 minutes which may leak additional points in that 10-man period and the man down creating additional fatigue for the 14 left on the park which may have implications deeper in the match.
If a coaching team has taken that decision then any one handed interception attempt inside the 22 is the player’s decision.
Player gets lucky and intercepts and it should still be a bollocking by the coaching team.
Player fails, then it’s off for 10, then subbed by coaching team.
That’s how you create a culture and take the referee out of the decision making process.
Repeat the same tactical evaluation with kick charge downs and kick contesting in the air as two other potential high reward, high risk situations.
Tackle zone is a coaching problem
Aim lower. It really is as simple as that.
The reds and TMOs are more involved in matches with certain teams because of the coaching culture.
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?
Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.
We can debate the foul play aspect all day long but both teams play under the same rules and smart teams will adapt and train players not to jump into charge downs. Try to get lower etc etc.
I am still slightly cynical just how much a difference coaching can make to these instincts and fast paced decisions but at some point, someone like Ofa, SB are ticking bombs in terms of cards.
Edit: O'Gara also said he instantly knew the Savea sub was an error and was surprised Foster and Co let it happen.
Been saying this for some time now.
This is a coaching decision and a player execution problem.
If a coach categorically tells his charges ‘inside the 22 don’t even think about trying to intercept a pass with one hand’ then the coaching team has determined that the reward of an interception and negating a try scoring opportunity is far outweighed by a penalty and YC at least, penalty try and YC at most PLUS playing the next 10 minutes which may leak additional points in that 10-man period and the man down creating additional fatigue for the 14 left on the park which may have implications deeper in the match.
If a coaching team has taken that decision then any one handed interception attempt inside the 22 is the player’s decision.
Player gets lucky and intercepts and it should still be a bollocking by the coaching team.
Player fails, then it’s off for 10, then subbed by coaching team.
That’s how you create a culture and take the referee out of the decision making process.
Repeat the same tactical evaluation with kick charge downs and kick contesting in the air as two other potential high reward, high risk situations.
Tackle zone is a coaching problem
Aim lower. It really is as simple as that.
The reds and TMOs are more involved in matches with certain teams because of the coaching culture.
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Aim lower. It really is as simple as that.
it's really not
and statements like this help no one
A million red cards would not have stopped what happened to AT on the weekend
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Aim lower. It really is as simple as that.
it's really not
and statements like this help no one
A million red cards would not have stopped what happened to AT on the weekend
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Aim lower. It really is as simple as that.
it's really not
and statements like this help no one
A million red cards would not have stopped what happened to AT on the weekend
One isolated incident that possibly happens a couple of times a season.
I was specifically talking about a defender attempting to tackle the ball carrier.
High reward if you aim above the nipple, high risk and deserved sanction if you get the execution wrong.
Every coaching team bangs on about eliminating mistakes.
This normally translates as not messing up a try scoring opportunity through poor skills and/or decision making whilst under pressure.
The good defensive coaches have worked out that easiest and quickest change they can make to a team is tell them aim lower.
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i dont think i have actually said where i stand on the Red card, to me it looked like he was lining up irish player 1...who offloaded it to irish player 2 who was coming back towards AT, the gap he had to get low suddenly closed and he was caught out, i think a pure accident...but wasn't surpurprided to see the card given how these things are being officiated...but i honestly dont know how much he could have done
the LT one i think is easier to see where the players need to change, he's thrown himself into the air where he has no control over himself in front of the irish player
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Pick whoever you want but change your bloody tactics. Get some forward domination at the contact and contest the breakdown. Cut back on the kicking, go tight then unleash the backs. Need to outmuscle up front. Bullshit box kicks and aimless kicks at 5/8 have to go. No issues with the squad just the fucking non-existent tactics.
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i dont think i have actually said where i stand on the Red card, to me it looked like he was lining up irish player 1...who offloaded it to irish player 2 who was coming back towards AT, the gap he had to get low suddenly closed and he was caught out, i think a pure accident...but wasn't surpurprided to see the card given how these things are being officiated...but i honestly dont know how much he could have done
the LT one i think is easier to see where the players need to change, he's thrown himself into the air where he has no control over himself in front of the irish player
@Kiwiwomble Ta'avao has always been a grub, he finally got caught.
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Aim lower. It really is as simple as that.
it's really not
and statements like this help no one
A million red cards would not have stopped what happened to AT on the weekend
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
A million red cards would not have stopped what happened to AT on the weekend
I changed my mind on Angus. Highlights below, 4.47 in.
He advances, dips slightly and then stays upright. If he'd slowed down he'd probably get away with a yellow for being passive. But the movement forward is what's goign to get him in trouble with the laws they way they are.
also, all this and we don't talk about the shitty ruck play by Ireland lying long back from rucks. It's classic Gatland ploy, slowing ruck speed... cynical as shit, but right on the edge of legality. Smart play.
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AT was obviously an accident, you don't try and tackle people with your face. If he was trying to lead with the head he would have use his forehead not his nose. As @taniwharugby says, reds used to be for deliberate acts of filth, now they are being used for what are clearly accidents in a fast paced, high contact sport (no other sport in the world compares to rugby in this regard). If we're giving reds for AT, then there's going to be plenty more reds dished out as players collide with each other, and plenty more games ruined as a contest.
Are fans really OK with that?
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AT was obviously an accident, you don't try and tackle people with your face. If he was trying to lead with the head he would have use his forehead not his nose. As @taniwharugby says, reds used to be for deliberate acts of filth, now they are being used for what are clearly accidents in a fast paced, high contact sport (no other sport in the world compares to rugby in this regard). If we're giving reds for AT, then there's going to be plenty more reds dished out as players collide with each other, and plenty more games ruined as a contest.
Are fans really OK with that?
@No-Quarter he take a total of one step between the pass the "tackle"...thats a fraction of a second
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@No-Quarter he take a total of one step between the pass the "tackle"...thats a fraction of a second
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@No-Quarter he take a total of one step between the pass the "tackle"...thats a fraction of a second
enough time to try and pull out a bit, and get more passive as he was in teh wrong body position.
It's tough, but he was pushing up hard to close the time and space down. That's his job, but it brings a degree of responsibility.
Reckless at worst, but in the current environment, that's a correct Red card. We should talk in the state of the game thread about whether it should be or not. The game's a bit fucked at the moment.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
A million red cards would not have stopped what happened to AT on the weekend
I changed my mind on Angus. Highlights below, 4.47 in.
He advances, dips slightly and then stays upright. If he'd slowed down he'd probably get away with a yellow for being passive. But the movement forward is what's goign to get him in trouble with the laws they way they are.
also, all this and we don't talk about the shitty ruck play by Ireland lying long back from rucks. It's classic Gatland ploy, slowing ruck speed... cynical as shit, but right on the edge of legality. Smart play.
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
A million red cards would not have stopped what happened to AT on the weekend
I changed my mind on Angus. Highlights below, 4.47 in.
He advances, dips slightly and then stays upright. If he'd slowed down he'd probably get away with a yellow for being passive. But the movement forward is what's goign to get him in trouble with the laws they way they are.
also, all this and we don't talk about the shitty ruck play by Ireland lying long back from rucks. It's classic Gatland ploy, slowing ruck speed... cynical as shit, but right on the edge of legality. Smart play.
Finally
The attacker changed direction, so too the defender.
The defender has both arms around the attacker ready to make the tackle.
The attacker’s movements were quicker than the defender’s, and the defender came in too high.
Put those two factors together and you have what transpired - head on head contact.
Did the defender purposefully aim for the head?
No
Did it happen due to (lack of) speed of tackle execution?
Yes
RC
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@No-Quarter he take a total of one step between the pass the "tackle"...thats a fraction of a second
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?
Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.
We can debate the foul play aspect all day long but both teams play under the same rules and smart teams will adapt and train players not to jump into charge downs. Try to get lower etc etc.
I am still slightly cynical just how much a difference coaching can make to these instincts and fast paced decisions but at some point, someone like Ofa, SB are ticking bombs in terms of cards.
Edit: O'Gara also said he instantly knew the Savea sub was an error and was surprised Foster and Co let it happen.
Been saying this for some time now.
This is a coaching decision and a player execution problem.
If a coach categorically tells his charges ‘inside the 22 don’t even think about trying to intercept a pass with one hand’ then the coaching team has determined that the reward of an interception and negating a try scoring opportunity is far outweighed by a penalty and YC at least, penalty try and YC at most PLUS playing the next 10 minutes which may leak additional points in that 10-man period and the man down creating additional fatigue for the 14 left on the park which may have implications deeper in the match.
If a coaching team has taken that decision then any one handed interception attempt inside the 22 is the player’s decision.
Player gets lucky and intercepts and it should still be a bollocking by the coaching team.
Player fails, then it’s off for 10, then subbed by coaching team.
That’s how you create a culture and take the referee out of the decision making process.
Repeat the same tactical evaluation with kick charge downs and kick contesting in the air as two other potential high reward, high risk situations.
Tackle zone is a coaching problem
Aim lower. It really is as simple as that.
The reds and TMOs are more involved in matches with certain teams because of the coaching culture.
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?
Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.
We can debate the foul play aspect all day long but both teams play under the same rules and smart teams will adapt and train players not to jump into charge downs. Try to get lower etc etc.
I am still slightly cynical just how much a difference coaching can make to these instincts and fast paced decisions but at some point, someone like Ofa, SB are ticking bombs in terms of cards.
Edit: O'Gara also said he instantly knew the Savea sub was an error and was surprised Foster and Co let it happen.
Been saying this for some time now.
This is a coaching decision and a player execution problem.
If a coach categorically tells his charges ‘inside the 22 don’t even think about trying to intercept a pass with one hand’ then the coaching team has determined that the reward of an interception and negating a try scoring opportunity is far outweighed by a penalty and YC at least, penalty try and YC at most PLUS playing the next 10 minutes which may leak additional points in that 10-man period and the man down creating additional fatigue for the 14 left on the park which may have implications deeper in the match.
If a coaching team has taken that decision then any one handed interception attempt inside the 22 is the player’s decision.
Player gets lucky and intercepts and it should still be a bollocking by the coaching team.
Player fails, then it’s off for 10, then subbed by coaching team.
That’s how you create a culture and take the referee out of the decision making process.
Repeat the same tactical evaluation with kick charge downs and kick contesting in the air as two other potential high reward, high risk situations.
Tackle zone is a coaching problem
Aim lower. It really is as simple as that.
The reds and TMOs are more involved in matches with certain teams because of the coaching culture.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
A million red cards would not have stopped what happened to AT on the weekend
I changed my mind on Angus. Highlights below, 4.47 in.
He advances, dips slightly and then stays upright. If he'd slowed down he'd probably get away with a yellow for being passive. But the movement forward is what's goign to get him in trouble with the laws they way they are.
also, all this and we don't talk about the shitty ruck play by Ireland lying long back from rucks. It's classic Gatland ploy, slowing ruck speed... cynical as shit, but right on the edge of legality. Smart play.
Finally
The attacker changed direction, so too the defender.
The defender has both arms around the attacker ready to make the tackle.
The attacker’s movements were quicker than the defender’s, and the defender came in too high.
Put those two factors together and you have what transpired - head on head contact.
Did the defender purposefully aim for the head?
No
Did it happen due to (lack of) speed of tackle execution?
Yes
RC
@MiketheSnow why do you hate rugby considering you're welsh??
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@Dan54 I'm heading along so hopefully we put out an inspired performance.
@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@Dan54 I'm heading along so hopefully we put out an inspired performance.
Too many Canes….supporters
Enjoy the game mate, hope it’s a good one.
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Leinster’s head coach on how Ireland defused the All Blacks’ front row defence. https://twitter.com/brettruganalyst/status/1546240815143460865?s=21&t=ZV-SzHUWAueOoPqayoPU-g
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Leinster’s head coach on how Ireland defused the All Blacks’ front row defence. https://twitter.com/brettruganalyst/status/1546240815143460865?s=21&t=ZV-SzHUWAueOoPqayoPU-g
@MrDenmore said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Leinster’s head coach on how Ireland defused the All Blacks’ front row defence. https://twitter.com/brettruganalyst/status/1546240815143460865?s=21&t=ZV-SzHUWAueOoPqayoPU-g
They targeted the NZ front row. That has to send alarm bells ringing in the NZ coaching team. The NZ front row didn't work as a unit. Too many disconnects (lack of communication, bad defensive reads or just poor work rate?) and Ireland took advantage.
Can something so fundamental be rectified in a week? I'm not sure. NZ need to focus on starving Ireland of possession and territory. And nullify Irish momentum on early phases, which is where Ireland have successfully targeted NZ's defence, which has struggled to reset fast enough.
NZ's scramble defence has been world class. You can't fault the effort in that regard. But Ireland's structured attack and running lines have manipulated and ripped open NZ's defence too many times for it to be anything but a structural problem.
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@MrDenmore said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Leinster’s head coach on how Ireland defused the All Blacks’ front row defence. https://twitter.com/brettruganalyst/status/1546240815143460865?s=21&t=ZV-SzHUWAueOoPqayoPU-g
They targeted the NZ front row. That has to send alarm bells ringing in the NZ coaching team. The NZ front row didn't work as a unit. Too many disconnects (lack of communication, bad defensive reads or just poor work rate?) and Ireland took advantage.
Can something so fundamental be rectified in a week? I'm not sure. NZ need to focus on starving Ireland of possession and territory. And nullify Irish momentum on early phases, which is where Ireland have successfully targeted NZ's defence, which has struggled to reset fast enough.
NZ's scramble defence has been world class. You can't fault the effort in that regard. But Ireland's structured attack and running lines have manipulated and ripped open NZ's defence too many times for it to be anything but a structural problem.
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@MrDenmore said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@stodders Structure = strategy = coaching = sack Foster and his team
Looking at that video, Bower had a couple of misses, one was from a good step from the Irish hooker.
The rest confirm what was observed on the week. Tu'ungafasi had an incredibly poor game, but Taylor was not far behind. Ireland targeted him, especially his outside shoulder. Both were a liability on defence.
Based on their performances, dropping one or both would not come as a surprise to either of them. ST to start with Coles on the bench. Can Bower cover tighthead to allow Ross to start at loosehead? Or is that too much of a risk?
