The Current State of Rugby
-
What has become apparent (well, what has been rammed home really) in the past 10 days is that rugby has allowed itself to become a sport where the refereeing panel are no longer just there to facilitate the game and allow it to happen, but have become nearly the most important people on the pitch (or box). Rugby is no longer about 30 players, it is about 30 players, and 4 officials whose remit has become sanctioning every single act on the field to its fullest extent.
The term rugby accident no longer has any meaning. Angus Ta'avao got his face caved in and got a red card. LF was in the air and got a yellow. In the England v Australia game two attempted intercepts got two players binned. Papali'i got penalised for a perfect cleanout because the touchie thought something else happened and had to get on the pitch.
Rugby is obsessed with getting people off the pitch. In a game defined by the fact it is a constant contest, players are sent from the field for contesting. Cards are flying thick and fast. AWJ got carded for absolutely nothing but suspicion on the weekend. How is that in any way acceptable?
And i absolutely do not blame the referees even one bit. This comes down to the lawmakers, their guidelines, and the instructions given to their referees. This is the game World Rugby want. Every controversial incident is met with a new, far stricter than required guideline in case it happens again. And that guidelines normally involves another player off the pitch. Professional Rugby is, above all else, a form of entertainment, and yet here we have a governing body obsessed with actively degrading their product, to appease who?
And yet, for some, they do not go far enough. Look at the chat in rugby media after every test. "this is a disgrace, there should have been more cards!! that card wasn't harsh enough, it should have been red!" every single fucking week. Pre-game the focus is on the ref, and what they should look at. Post-game the focus is on the ref, and what they misses, and who else should have been sent from the field.
I have heard more about Jaco in the press than the fucking players over the past couple of days. In what world is that the best outcome?
Long time fans are becoming more and more disillusioned. Casual fans are turning it off. And the response will probably e another crack down and more cards. Awesome.
@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
And i absolutely do not blame the referees even one bit.
True, they seem terrified to make a game altering mistake for fear of getting it wrong when their employment depends on adjudicating the impacts of law interpretations dictated to them. Not helped at all by a judiciary staffed by clones of Helen Keller. overruling what every man and his dog saw and expects.
Then there's the gin soaked geriatrics at
the IRBWorld Rugby who think it's the same game as when they were amateurs. Utterly ignorant to the law of unintended consequences of their daft decision making when evidence and alternatives abound.But for all that, I blame the fans. The loud ones who bleat about perceived transgressions from the other team and howl for the most draconian punishment, oblivious to their hypocrisy should the referee do the same to their team. And on the internet, no country appears worse than the Irish. It seems as soon as they got good, they've been inundated with jonny come latelys, or at least that's how it seems on reddit.
At least the arm band brigade can feel aggrieved we prevented them from playing for a while.
-
For me the big problem isn't the number of cards or times the ARs & TMO get involved, though it's an issue.
The problem is that getting carded has become a lottery.
-
@Rapido im on another forum that is predominantly NH people and they were all calling for blood for deliberate KNOCK ONS (you know who you are)...there is a growing divide between between north and south on what the game should look like
@Kiwiwomble said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Rapido im on another forum that is predominantly NH people and they were all calling for blood for deliberate KNOCK ONS (you know who you are)...there is a growing divide between between north and south on what the game should look like
this comment had me thinking back to playing in the UK - could not get over the non stop constant whinging to the ref about every single farking thing rather than getting on with it.
-
I think the issues we are seeing in our shop window flow through from the shitshow at the governance level of the game.
Robinson seems to have made shit call after shit call since he has been at the helm, from the issues with the Aussies and SA to Silverlake, that may turn out to be his saving grace but it may also be the dagger through the heart of NZR.
Support seems to be there still for our shop window, super rugby is up and down, NPC support has been a battle for 10+ years, schoolboy rugby and club rugby still seems to attract people, but small scale so smaller numbers.
NZR is teetering on the edge, the ABs are what will tip the balance, if we cant keep them up, it makes the rest of the game that relies on thier money that much tougher.
-
With attempted intercept knock on's etc, it's kind of a p.o.v thing. I don't do cards for it myself, as I don't think they are THAT much of a deterrent. I'd just go straight to penalty try if they deem the attempter was never trying to catch the ball.
World Rugby are kind of fucked though with the cards for foul / violent conduct issue. Players are huge, physical specimens now and a shoulder to the head (regardless of intent) is going to cause real physical damage. If Hayman & Thompson have early onset dementia now, from incidents with playing weight/physiques 20 years ago .. what's going to happen to the current crop in 20 years?
I don't have the answer. Just the question.
-
With attempted intercept knock on's etc, it's kind of a p.o.v thing. I don't do cards for it myself, as I don't think they are THAT much of a deterrent. I'd just go straight to penalty try if they deem the attempter was never trying to catch the ball.
World Rugby are kind of fucked though with the cards for foul / violent conduct issue. Players are huge, physical specimens now and a shoulder to the head (regardless of intent) is going to cause real physical damage. If Hayman & Thompson have early onset dementia now, from incidents with playing weight/physiques 20 years ago .. what's going to happen to the current crop in 20 years?
I don't have the answer. Just the question.
@MajorRage said in The Current State of Rugby:
With attempted intercept knock on's etc, it's kind of a p.o.v thing. I don't do cards for it myself, as I don't think they are THAT much of a deterrent. I'd just go straight to penalty try if they deem the attempter was never trying to catch the ball.
World Rugby are kind of fucked though with the cards for foul / violent conduct issue. Players are huge, physical specimens now and a shoulder to the head (regardless of intent) is going to cause real physical damage. If Hayman & Thompson have early onset dementia now, from incidents with playing weight/physiques 20 years ago .. what's going to happen to the current crop in 20 years?
I don't have the answer. Just the question.
I totally agree that the game can’t continue to create legacy injuries for its players but RCs aren’t going to stop what happened with Angus the other night.
-
@MajorRage said in The Current State of Rugby:
With attempted intercept knock on's etc, it's kind of a p.o.v thing. I don't do cards for it myself, as I don't think they are THAT much of a deterrent. I'd just go straight to penalty try if they deem the attempter was never trying to catch the ball.
World Rugby are kind of fucked though with the cards for foul / violent conduct issue. Players are huge, physical specimens now and a shoulder to the head (regardless of intent) is going to cause real physical damage. If Hayman & Thompson have early onset dementia now, from incidents with playing weight/physiques 20 years ago .. what's going to happen to the current crop in 20 years?
I don't have the answer. Just the question.
I totally agree that the game can’t continue to create legacy injuries for its players but RCs aren’t going to stop what happened with Angus the other night.
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@MajorRage said in The Current State of Rugby:
With attempted intercept knock on's etc, it's kind of a p.o.v thing. I don't do cards for it myself, as I don't think they are THAT much of a deterrent. I'd just go straight to penalty try if they deem the attempter was never trying to catch the ball.
World Rugby are kind of fucked though with the cards for foul / violent conduct issue. Players are huge, physical specimens now and a shoulder to the head (regardless of intent) is going to cause real physical damage. If Hayman & Thompson have early onset dementia now, from incidents with playing weight/physiques 20 years ago .. what's going to happen to the current crop in 20 years?
I don't have the answer. Just the question.
I totally agree that the game can’t continue to create legacy injuries for its players but RCs aren’t going to stop what happened with Angus the other night.
Angus was just a bonfide referee mistake. Disappointing thing is that he could have easily had it checked, but elected not to.
-
With attempted intercept knock on's etc, it's kind of a p.o.v thing. I don't do cards for it myself, as I don't think they are THAT much of a deterrent. I'd just go straight to penalty try if they deem the attempter was never trying to catch the ball.
World Rugby are kind of fucked though with the cards for foul / violent conduct issue. Players are huge, physical specimens now and a shoulder to the head (regardless of intent) is going to cause real physical damage. If Hayman & Thompson have early onset dementia now, from incidents with playing weight/physiques 20 years ago .. what's going to happen to the current crop in 20 years?
I don't have the answer. Just the question.
@MajorRage said in The Current State of Rugby:
With attempted intercept knock on's etc, it's kind of a p.o.v thing. I don't do cards for it myself, as I don't think they are THAT much of a deterrent. I'd just go straight to penalty try if they deem the attempter was never trying to catch the ball.
World Rugby are kind of fucked though with the cards for foul / violent conduct issue. Players are huge, physical specimens now and a shoulder to the head (regardless of intent) is going to cause real physical damage. If Hayman & Thompson have early onset dementia now, from incidents with playing weight/physiques 20 years ago .. what's going to happen to the current crop in 20 years?
I don't have the answer. Just the question.
-
Make the game longer, either 90mins or stop the clock until the ball is out of scrum / don't run it during kicks at goal to get more "ball in play" time.
-
Stop the massive delays for video referrals, physios on, water on time wasting that allows players to catch breath.
-
Make the field wider / longer.
-
Go to 13 players.
-
Shrink the bench or limit the number of total substitutions allowed.
Lots of other problems with many of the above, but fundamentally they need to make the aerobic demands greater to shrink the size of the players to take the edge off the head injury risk. Bonus of making rugby more accessible to people who aren't 6'6" and 120kg.
-
-
@MajorRage said in The Current State of Rugby:
With attempted intercept knock on's etc, it's kind of a p.o.v thing. I don't do cards for it myself, as I don't think they are THAT much of a deterrent. I'd just go straight to penalty try if they deem the attempter was never trying to catch the ball.
World Rugby are kind of fucked though with the cards for foul / violent conduct issue. Players are huge, physical specimens now and a shoulder to the head (regardless of intent) is going to cause real physical damage. If Hayman & Thompson have early onset dementia now, from incidents with playing weight/physiques 20 years ago .. what's going to happen to the current crop in 20 years?
I don't have the answer. Just the question.
-
Make the game longer, either 90mins or stop the clock until the ball is out of scrum / don't run it during kicks at goal to get more "ball in play" time.
-
Stop the massive delays for video referrals, physios on, water on time wasting that allows players to catch breath.
-
Make the field wider / longer.
-
Go to 13 players.
-
Shrink the bench or limit the number of total substitutions allowed.
Lots of other problems with many of the above, but fundamentally they need to make the aerobic demands greater to shrink the size of the players to take the edge off the head injury risk. Bonus of making rugby more accessible to people who aren't 6'6" and 120kg.
-
-
I'm a big fan of bringing back substitutions for injuries only
-
@Rapido im on another forum that is predominantly NH people and they were all calling for blood for deliberate KNOCK ONS (you know who you are)...there is a growing divide between between north and south on what the game should look like
@Kiwiwomble said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Rapido im on another forum that is predominantly NH people and they were all calling for blood for deliberate KNOCK ONS (you know who you are)...there is a growing divide between between north and south on what the game should look like
This is everything.
There are a bunch of different problems plaguing rugby under the general banner of refereeing.
1 - The law book is a mess, poorly written - ambiguous, contradictory, vague - and should be re-written from the ground up even if they don't change any laws (and we all agree they need to change some of them).
2 - Referees make too many blatantly incorrect decisions (AWJ's absurd yellow for example) that could be forgiven in real time before we had TMO, but there's no excuse for now. And there's way too much inconsistency in how the laws are applied - between countries, individual refs, from one game to the next, and worst of all between two teams in the same game (how many times do we see breakdown and scrum pens given to the team that "should" be stronger regardless of what's actually going on?).
3 - But those are relatively easy problems to fix. The toughest one is the perception that referring is appalling and is ruining the game. This is one of the rare things that NH and SH fans can agree on. But to fix it we need to deal with not just the previous two things, but also the gulf in about what rugby should look like.
Lots of people here were unhappy about the cards for the intentional knock-ons, and Ta'avao's red for the accidental tête-à-tête with Ringrose, while the people up north thought Fainga’anuku was damn lucky not to see red, and similarly Genge for pinning a guy down and smacking him about the head.
SH fans think that Northerners want to turn the game into tiddlywinks, with cards every 5 minutes and no tackling above the waist. NH fans think Southerners are in total denial about the seriousness of CTE and they want to dumb the rules down until it's just league XVs.
Who's right? It doesn't matter. At all. Not one chuffing iota. What matters is that we're poles apart, and you can't fix the law book or the refereeing if nobody can agree what 'fixed' means. And as far as I can see there's no plan for that at all.
-
I'm a big fan of bringing back substitutions for injuries only
@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
I'm a big fan of bringing back substitutions for injuries only
100%. If you start, you should be able to play for 80 minutes. Get rid of the starter/finisher rubbish. Players will have to lose bulk, or the more aerobic ones will have more chances at the end of games as players tire.
-
I'm a big fan of bringing back substitutions for injuries only
@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
I'm a big fan of bringing back substitutions for injuries only
Define injury
-
@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
I'm a big fan of bringing back substitutions for injuries only
Define injury
@gibbon-rib said in The Current State of Rugby:
@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
I'm a big fan of bringing back substitutions for injuries only
Define injury
Therein lies the rub.
No win bonus if you leave the field
-
@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
I'm a big fan of bringing back substitutions for injuries only
Define injury
@gibbon-rib said in The Current State of Rugby:
@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
I'm a big fan of bringing back substitutions for injuries only
Define injury
You don't have to define it, you just have to limit the number of subs allowed. full size bench, but only 3 subs allowed for the game, nominally for injury. Then you can't rort the system that much.
-
@gibbon-rib said in The Current State of Rugby:
@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
I'm a big fan of bringing back substitutions for injuries only
Define injury
You don't have to define it, you just have to limit the number of subs allowed. full size bench, but only 3 subs allowed for the game, nominally for injury. Then you can't rort the system that much.
@reprobate said in The Current State of Rugby:
@gibbon-rib said in The Current State of Rugby:
@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
I'm a big fan of bringing back substitutions for injuries only
Define injury
You don't have to define it, you just have to limit the number of subs allowed. full size bench, but only 3 subs allowed for the game, nominally for injury. Then you can't rort the system that much.
You're a smarter man than me
Well played
-
@gibbon-rib said in The Current State of Rugby:
@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
I'm a big fan of bringing back substitutions for injuries only
Define injury
You don't have to define it, you just have to limit the number of subs allowed. full size bench, but only 3 subs allowed for the game, nominally for injury. Then you can't rort the system that much.
@reprobate said in The Current State of Rugby:
@gibbon-rib said in The Current State of Rugby:
@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
I'm a big fan of bringing back substitutions for injuries only
Define injury
You don't have to define it, you just have to limit the number of subs allowed. full size bench, but only 3 subs allowed for the game, nominally for injury. Then you can't rort the system that much.
Yeah, that's the only way it could work. Of course it wouldn't be that unusual to get more than 3 injuries in a game. And it gives the opposing team a big incentive to help find a 4th injury...
-
@Kiwiwomble said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Rapido im on another forum that is predominantly NH people and they were all calling for blood for deliberate KNOCK ONS (you know who you are)...there is a growing divide between between north and south on what the game should look like
This is everything.
There are a bunch of different problems plaguing rugby under the general banner of refereeing.
1 - The law book is a mess, poorly written - ambiguous, contradictory, vague - and should be re-written from the ground up even if they don't change any laws (and we all agree they need to change some of them).
2 - Referees make too many blatantly incorrect decisions (AWJ's absurd yellow for example) that could be forgiven in real time before we had TMO, but there's no excuse for now. And there's way too much inconsistency in how the laws are applied - between countries, individual refs, from one game to the next, and worst of all between two teams in the same game (how many times do we see breakdown and scrum pens given to the team that "should" be stronger regardless of what's actually going on?).
3 - But those are relatively easy problems to fix. The toughest one is the perception that referring is appalling and is ruining the game. This is one of the rare things that NH and SH fans can agree on. But to fix it we need to deal with not just the previous two things, but also the gulf in about what rugby should look like.
Lots of people here were unhappy about the cards for the intentional knock-ons, and Ta'avao's red for the accidental tête-à-tête with Ringrose, while the people up north thought Fainga’anuku was damn lucky not to see red, and similarly Genge for pinning a guy down and smacking him about the head.
SH fans think that Northerners want to turn the game into tiddlywinks, with cards every 5 minutes and no tackling above the waist. NH fans think Southerners are in total denial about the seriousness of CTE and they want to dumb the rules down until it's just league XVs.
Who's right? It doesn't matter. At all. Not one chuffing iota. What matters is that we're poles apart, and you can't fix the law book or the refereeing if nobody can agree what 'fixed' means. And as far as I can see there's no plan for that at all.
@gibbon-rib the weird thing is that reffing is so much better now than it was 30 or even 15 years ago.
What’s changed, I think, is that somehow we got this idea in our head that refs should be close to perfect and share the same interpretations and emphasize the same things.
That’s unrealistic but also less fun?
You don’t complain about the weather. Games played in the pissing rain where the wind changes end at half time are awesome. So are games played in dazzling sun on a crisp Joburg winter afternoon. The team that adapts the best tends to win.
You don’t complain about the wild bounce of the ball. You try not to let it bounce or position yourself so you can react as best you can to whatever insane direction it shoots off at.
Sure, games reffed by Nige or Barnes in their pomp are awesome. But how sweet is it to beat 16 men? Especially when the pedantic bastard has no clue at the scrum and is rewarding a piss weak Welsh frontrow for fucking around? And it’s only that sweet because sometimes you just can’t overcome it.
Are there dumb Laws and dumber interpretations and massive reffing blind spots? Fuck yes. Should I be allowed to ruck a yappy halfback whose within a yard of the ball when all his mates are off their feet? Fucking Fuck yes. But I’m gonna get pinged for it sure as he won’t get pinged for being offside when he walks past his three mates like some godawful human centipede to “ruck” the ball back to its anus.
Maybe my perversity is showing, but I get a sick joy from players and teams mastering all our game’s capricious absurdities and developing ways to turn them to their advantage.
-
@gibbon-rib the weird thing is that reffing is so much better now than it was 30 or even 15 years ago.
What’s changed, I think, is that somehow we got this idea in our head that refs should be close to perfect and share the same interpretations and emphasize the same things.
That’s unrealistic but also less fun?
You don’t complain about the weather. Games played in the pissing rain where the wind changes end at half time are awesome. So are games played in dazzling sun on a crisp Joburg winter afternoon. The team that adapts the best tends to win.
You don’t complain about the wild bounce of the ball. You try not to let it bounce or position yourself so you can react as best you can to whatever insane direction it shoots off at.
Sure, games reffed by Nige or Barnes in their pomp are awesome. But how sweet is it to beat 16 men? Especially when the pedantic bastard has no clue at the scrum and is rewarding a piss weak Welsh frontrow for fucking around? And it’s only that sweet because sometimes you just can’t overcome it.
Are there dumb Laws and dumber interpretations and massive reffing blind spots? Fuck yes. Should I be allowed to ruck a yappy halfback whose within a yard of the ball when all his mates are off their feet? Fucking Fuck yes. But I’m gonna get pinged for it sure as he won’t get pinged for being offside when he walks past his three mates like some godawful human centipede to “ruck” the ball back to its anus.
Maybe my perversity is showing, but I get a sick joy from players and teams mastering all our game’s capricious absurdities and developing ways to turn them to their advantage.
-
@gibbon-rib the weird thing is that reffing is so much better now than it was 30 or even 15 years ago.
What’s changed, I think, is that somehow we got this idea in our head that refs should be close to perfect and share the same interpretations and emphasize the same things.
That’s unrealistic but also less fun?
You don’t complain about the weather. Games played in the pissing rain where the wind changes end at half time are awesome. So are games played in dazzling sun on a crisp Joburg winter afternoon. The team that adapts the best tends to win.
You don’t complain about the wild bounce of the ball. You try not to let it bounce or position yourself so you can react as best you can to whatever insane direction it shoots off at.
Sure, games reffed by Nige or Barnes in their pomp are awesome. But how sweet is it to beat 16 men? Especially when the pedantic bastard has no clue at the scrum and is rewarding a piss weak Welsh frontrow for fucking around? And it’s only that sweet because sometimes you just can’t overcome it.
Are there dumb Laws and dumber interpretations and massive reffing blind spots? Fuck yes. Should I be allowed to ruck a yappy halfback whose within a yard of the ball when all his mates are off their feet? Fucking Fuck yes. But I’m gonna get pinged for it sure as he won’t get pinged for being offside when he walks past his three mates like some godawful human centipede to “ruck” the ball back to its anus.
Maybe my perversity is showing, but I get a sick joy from players and teams mastering all our game’s capricious absurdities and developing ways to turn them to their advantage.
@Smuts said in The Current State of Rugby:
@gibbon-rib the weird thing is that reffing is so much better now than it was 30 or even 15 years ago.
What’s changed, I think, is that somehow we got this idea in our head that refs should be close to perfect and share the same interpretations and emphasize the same things.
That’s unrealistic but also less fun?
You don’t complain about the weather. Games played in the pissing rain where the wind changes end at half time are awesome. So are games played in dazzling sun on a crisp Joburg winter afternoon. The team that adapts the best tends to win.
You don’t complain about the wild bounce of the ball. You try not to let it bounce or position yourself so you can react as best you can to whatever insane direction it shoots off at.
Sure, games reffed by Nige or Barnes in their pomp are awesome. But how sweet is it to beat 16 men? Especially when the pedantic bastard has no clue at the scrum and is rewarding a piss weak Welsh frontrow for fucking around? And it’s only that sweet because sometimes you just can’t overcome it.
Are there dumb Laws and dumber interpretations and massive reffing blind spots? Fuck yes. Should I be allowed to ruck a yappy halfback whose within a yard of the ball when all his mates are off their feet? Fucking Fuck yes. But I’m gonna get pinged for it sure as he won’t get pinged for being offside when he walks past his three mates like some godawful human centipede to “ruck” the ball back to its anus.
Maybe my perversity is showing, but I get a sick joy from players and teams mastering all our game’s capricious absurdities and developing ways to turn them to their advantage.
Are you from SA? If so, Hard to take seriously after the ridiculous carryon from your coach during the lions series.
