All Blacks v Argentina II

junior

@Derpus said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

Setting aside all else - I just cant follow the reasoning behind having a third openside and a specialist centre on the bench?

A lot of questions coming out of Papalii's selection:

Is this a reflection on Akira's performance last week?
Who is covering 6 and 7? Is Dalton covering both?
Did the coaches not see Dalton's performance at 6 in Dunners in a backrow with Cane and Ardie?
If Dalton is covering 7, does this mean Ardie is no longer an option at 7 and is seen purely as an 8?
If that is the case, then does this basically mean that Hoskins is not even a realistic option to cover 8 from the bench?
On this, who is covering 8 in the event that Ardie has to leave the field?

nostrildamus

@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@dogmeat said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

Tremaine, Kirkpatrick, Lochore
Mourie, Kirkpatrick, Knight,
Mourie, Shaw, Mexted

Have our loosies ever been this ineffective?

That's an interesting comment, because you don't have to go back too many weeks to see people talking about us being blessed with the quality of loosies we have.

In a way, they're right - but the problem is we have a whole bunch of same-same guys who are probably best characterized as 7.5s. Which may well be what you needs to play 7 these days.

We can field any of Cane, Savea, Papali'i, Blackadder in that role and not lose too much.

But the guys who are playing 8 aren't a lot bigger - well, the main one is Ardie, but Sotutu and Jacobson aren't great big munters either.

If you want big guys to play 6 and 8 (which I mainly do), you're really looking at Frizell, Akira, Robinson, Sowakula - two of whom aren't in the squad, and the other two are mainly 6s these days..

Not sure I can find the page readily but I recall a site saying that statistically, despite playing so much at 6 for the Blues, over his career Akira has played a little more often at 8.

And if we are allowed to look further than Foster, MMT comes into the mix.

pakman

@junior said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@Derpus said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

Setting aside all else - I just cant follow the reasoning behind having a third openside and a specialist centre on the bench?

A lot of questions coming out of Papalii's selection:

Is this a reflection on Akira's performance last week? MAYBE NOT

Who is covering 6 and 7? Is Dalton covering both? SCOOTER COVERS 6

Did the coaches not see Dalton's performance at 6 in Dunners in a backrow with Cane and Ardie? ASSUME WILL REPLACE CANE IN Q3.

If Dalton is covering 7, does this mean Ardie is no longer an option at 7 and is seen purely as an 8? YES.

If that is the case, then does this basically mean that Hoskins is not even a realistic option to cover 8 from the bench? FOSTER IS ALL IN ON SAVEA.

On this, who is covering 8 in the event that Ardie has to leave the field? FRIZELL.

pakman

Hard to disagree: https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-slight-tactical-fix-for-the-all-blacks-to-make-is-an-easy-one/

Crucial

@pakman said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

Hard to disagree: https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-slight-tactical-fix-for-the-all-blacks-to-make-is-an-easy-one/

I agree with some of it but they weren't entirely running Schmidt set plays. There was more organisation for the forward pods which worked well. In the first half they often made good ground off phases and when half breaks occurred they swooped on them. To me it was more that there were little plays that they kept stitching together and when you and winning those moments you keep going. The backs were there to pull the trigger when required.
I can't see how side to side will benefit the set up here.
I entirely agree with using the boot to create pressure though. That is our biggest failing and we seem to think the only pressure kicks are short bombs and box kicks. Kick chase seems to be a dirty concept for some reason.
Sit in the pocket with a clear plan if they drop early in anticipation then the wing, 12 or 15 offer a running option.
One last comment is that we did try to go down that left wing again and in a previous post I blamed Rieko for trying to take the outside. On another watch I realised that he did exactly what worked in the Clarke try with the biggest difference being that Jordie was nowhere to be seen this time. In the try Jordie steamed through on a straight line which meant the Ioane could drag the defence wider and creat a hole for him to run into then distribute out once the line broke. Whether there was a miscommunication/expectation or poor vision the next time I don't know but a piece of the puzzle was missing.

antipodean

@pakman said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

Hard to disagree: https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-slight-tactical-fix-for-the-all-blacks-to-make-is-an-easy-one/

Their (Los Pumas) strength in contact and the ground has to be negated, which means steering clear of too much contact in close and spending too much time trying to break down a brick wall.

The All Blacks need to spread them out with a game that goes from tramline-to-tramline quickly and then get boot to ball when it doesn’t work.

Isn't that suggested solution the very thing we've been criticising for years?

taniwharugby

@antipodean something that grinds my gears is how so often we are moving 1 phase to the right, 1 phase to the left, 2nd to the left, then we kick or go back right...no wonder other stronger organised packs are dominating us we are playing in that zone so near to the rucks and running back into the traffic from the last ruck.

antipodean

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@antipodean something that grinds my gears is how so often we are moving 1 phase to the right, 1 phase to the left, 2nd to the left, then we kick or go back right...no wonder other stronger organised packs are dominating us we are playing in that zone so near to the rucks and running back into the traffic from the last ruck.

Just in time for defenders to get back to their feet and join a defensive line. Our attack coach must be playing 4D chess.

Nepia

@pakman said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@junior said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@Derpus said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

Setting aside all else - I just cant follow the reasoning behind having a third openside and a specialist centre on the bench?

A lot of questions coming out of Papalii's selection:

Is this a reflection on Akira's performance last week? MAYBE NOT

Who is covering 6 and 7? Is Dalton covering both? SCOOTER COVERS 6

Did the coaches not see Dalton's performance at 6 in Dunners in a backrow with Cane and Ardie? ASSUME WILL REPLACE CANE IN Q3.

If Dalton is covering 7, does this mean Ardie is no longer an option at 7 and is seen purely as an 8? YES.

If that is the case, then does this basically mean that Hoskins is not even a realistic option to cover 8 from the bench? FOSTER IS ALL IN ON SAVEA.

On this, who is covering 8 in the event that Ardie has to leave the field? FRIZELL.

A lock, who has played 60 minutes, supposedly at full blast, is then supposed to switch and perform at 6. Not arguing with you that this is the likely option, arguing with Fozzie/Ryan that it's a good option. Scooter is not a 6.

Machpants

@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@pakman said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@junior said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@Derpus said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

Setting aside all else - I just cant follow the reasoning behind having a third openside and a specialist centre on the bench?

A lot of questions coming out of Papalii's selection:

Is this a reflection on Akira's performance last week? MAYBE NOT

Who is covering 6 and 7? Is Dalton covering both? SCOOTER COVERS 6

Did the coaches not see Dalton's performance at 6 in Dunners in a backrow with Cane and Ardie? ASSUME WILL REPLACE CANE IN Q3.

If Dalton is covering 7, does this mean Ardie is no longer an option at 7 and is seen purely as an 8? YES.

If that is the case, then does this basically mean that Hoskins is not even a realistic option to cover 8 from the bench? FOSTER IS ALL IN ON SAVEA.

On this, who is covering 8 in the event that Ardie has to leave the field? FRIZELL.

A lock, who has played 60 minutes, supposedly at full blast, is then supposed to switch and perform at 6. Not arguing with you that this is the likely option, arguing with Fozzie/Ryan that it's a good option. Scooter is not a 6.

He covers 6, the plan is still probably to bring off cane and put in Dalton.

junior

@Crucial said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@pakman said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

Hard to disagree: https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-slight-tactical-fix-for-the-all-blacks-to-make-is-an-easy-one/

I agree with some of it but they weren't entirely running Schmidt set plays. There was more organisation for the forward pods which worked well. In the first half they often made good ground off phases and when half breaks occurred they swooped on them. To me it was more that there were little plays that they kept stitching together and when you and winning those moments you keep going. The backs were there to pull the trigger when required.
I can't see how side to side will benefit the set up here.
I entirely agree with using the boot to create pressure though. That is our biggest failing and we seem to think the only pressure kicks are short bombs and box kicks. Kick chase seems to be a dirty concept for some reason.
Sit in the pocket with a clear plan if they drop early in anticipation then the wing, 12 or 15 offer a running option.
One last comment is that we did try to go down that left wing again and in a previous post I blamed Rieko for trying to take the outside. On another watch I realised that he did exactly what worked in the Clarke try with the biggest difference being that Jordie was nowhere to be seen this time. In the try Jordie steamed through on a straight line which meant the Ioane could drag the defence wider and creat a hole for him to run into then distribute out once the line broke. Whether there was a miscommunication/expectation or poor vision the next time I don't know but a piece of the puzzle was missing.

Yeah the side-to-side stuff has become a real difficult watch in recent years and seems indicative of the team running out of ideas / panicking / not communicating / etc.

We were still making metres up the middle with our forward runners in that second half, but each time we got in behind we immediately went wide to our backs but that was where the Argies had most of the numbers defensively, It seemed to me that, having got in behind them going through the middle, that we should have kept on going there with lots of support runners providing the opportunity for short pop passes before or out of the tackle.

I wonder if too many guys in the team have a natural instinct to go wide as soon as we cross the advantage line irrespective of where the space may in fact be. "Eyes up" rugby in my mind would have seen some of our backs - probably midfielders and maybe the blind winger - steaming through the midfield channels to provide support for the forwards who had gone through there.

Chester Draws

@junior said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

I wonder if too many guys in the team have a natural instinct to go wide as soon as we cross the advantage line irrespective of where the space may in fact be. "Eyes up" rugby in my mind would have seen some of our backs - probably midfielders and maybe the blind winger - steaming through the midfield channels to provide support for the forwards who had gone through there.

Get the ball into the hands of our best attacking weapons as often as possible. Are you mad????

That is structured play. Foster is not having a bar of it.

Crucial

@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@junior said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

I wonder if too many guys in the team have a natural instinct to go wide as soon as we cross the advantage line irrespective of where the space may in fact be. "Eyes up" rugby in my mind would have seen some of our backs - probably midfielders and maybe the blind winger - steaming through the midfield channels to provide support for the forwards who had gone through there.

Get the ball into the hands of our best attacking weapons as often as possible. Are you mad????

That is structured play. Foster is not having a bar of it.

Another post missing the point.
Not doing it is the very stuff the coaches were annoyed about. Instinct to go wide when it isn’t on.

On the suggestion though Clarke did try coming infield for a burst a couple of times IIRC. Jordan, however was conspicuously absent and JB stopped appearing where he was needed

pakman

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

Liebfraumilch

We had a nice Spätburgunder on Wednesday.

junior

@Crucial said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@junior said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

I wonder if too many guys in the team have a natural instinct to go wide as soon as we cross the advantage line irrespective of where the space may in fact be. "Eyes up" rugby in my mind would have seen some of our backs - probably midfielders and maybe the blind winger - steaming through the midfield channels to provide support for the forwards who had gone through there.

Get the ball into the hands of our best attacking weapons as often as possible. Are you mad????

That is structured play. Foster is not having a bar of it.

Another post missing the point.
Not doing it is the very stuff the coaches were annoyed about. Instinct to go wide when it isn’t on.

On the suggestion though Clarke did try coming infield for a burst a couple of times IIRC. Jordan, however was conspicuously absent and JB stopped appearing where he was needed

And this is exactly who I had in mind when I said the following:

"Eyes up" rugby in my mind would have seen some of our backs - probably midfielders and maybe the blind winger - steaming through the midfield channels to provide support for the forwards who had gone through there.

Chester Draws

@Crucial said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

Another post missing the point.
Not doing it is the very stuff the coaches were annoyed about. Instinct to go wide when it isn’t on.

On the suggestion though Clarke did try coming infield for a burst a couple of times IIRC. Jordan, however was conspicuously absent and JB stopped appearing where he was needed

Foster seems to blame the players for their poor play at every point. "They don't do the awesome things I tell them to do" seems to be his perennial cry.

I call BS on that. I say they are doing what he tells them to do. Otherwise he would drop them, like any coach with players who don't stick to the game plan.

It's only afterwards that he has to find someone to blame.

antipodean

@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@Crucial said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

Another post missing the point.
Not doing it is the very stuff the coaches were annoyed about. Instinct to go wide when it isn’t on.

On the suggestion though Clarke did try coming infield for a burst a couple of times IIRC. Jordan, however was conspicuously absent and JB stopped appearing where he was needed

Foster seems to blame the players for their poor play at every point. "They don't do the awesome things I tell them to do" seems to be his perennial cry.

Perhaps he's correct and the coaching should be judged on how well they respond to it. I recall exactly the same laments by Hansen and Sir Ted before him. The difference is the amount of experience in the squad so one might expect these problems to surface wilt slightly more regularity.

What's abundantly clear to me is the learnings of previous iterations haven't flowed through to this squad. You draw from and add to the crucible and the level of experience determines the strength of the forging. It's unfortunate that the same lessons have be retaught.

At the moment the compounding problem to addressing the manner in which we play is the mental fragility, the panic that fixates the vision. They're clearly tightening up and not seeing the very opportunities they're creating. Winning, like losing, becomes a habit.

The well from which we draw isn't as deep either. That's plainly obvious when you look at the squad we took to the 2007 RWC. Any iteration of that squad would defeat the current All Blacks - something I doubt you could say about many other nations.

NTA

There were still tickets on Friday?

https://twitter.com/AllBlacks/status/1565587779819491328

nzzp

@NTA said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

There were still tickets on Friday?

There aer still the odd tickets available right now!

NTA

@nzzp said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@NTA said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

There were still tickets on Friday?

There aer still the odd tickets available right now!

What are prices like?

The Silver Fern

All Blacks v Argentina II