Bledisloe 2
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@Bones said in Bledisloe 2:
@MajorRage geez, if you're not in the top 3 players, you're disappointing? Interesting take.
I think it's a fair thing to say when 15 of 23 players (including many non-starters) get votes in the MOTM poll that TSF is disappointed with those starters who didn't get any votes.
Thats my take.
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@Bones said in Bledisloe 2:
@MajorRage geez, if you're not in the top 3 players, you're disappointing? Interesting take.
I think it's a fair thing to say when 15 of 23 players (including many non-starters) get votes in the MOTM poll that TSF is disappointed with those starters who didn't get any votes.
Thats my take.
@MajorRage said in Bledisloe 2:
@Bones said in Bledisloe 2:
@MajorRage geez, if you're not in the top 3 players, you're disappointing? Interesting take.
I think it's a fair thing to say when 15 of 23 players (including many non-starters) get votes in the MOTM poll that TSF is disappointed with those starters who didn't get any votes.
Thats my take.
I think that's an extremely weird and wrong take. That's not what a MOTM poll is for. Especially when people throw votes in just because favourites or to fuck with things. You think Christie is deserving of a vote? All it does is give a good reflection of the top 3, not the disappointments. You want the DOTM poll.
My take is derived from the distinct lack of volume of posts regarding just how disappointing Sotutu was.
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This will be Retallick's 98th test match. Assuming he doesn't play against Japan, BBBR will finally become the latest AB centurion in Edinburgh.
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@Bones said in Bledisloe 2:
@MajorRage said in Bledisloe 2:
@Bones said in Bledisloe 2:
@MajorRage said in Bledisloe 2:
I think we were all a bit disappointed with Hoskins
Huh, really? I thought he had a decent game and showed why he's worth persevering with. Hit contact hard for a guy that's been out so long and showed a grind I didn't know he had. Plus those handling skills bring a whole lot of opportunity to those around him.
It's just a shame I immediately contracted a sniper to execute him, after he put in the grubber.
He was part of a back row that got dominated, in my view.
I'm not saying to write him off. Far from it.
I was far from disappointed is what I'm saying. He went better than I thought he would.
Thats fine. We don't need to agree on everything. I felt he was ineffective at ruck times, barely made the gain line & his decision to chip with players in support was awful. The fact that 49 people voted in the MOTM thread and nobody picked Sotutu at all is where I was coming from with my "we".
Basically, it was a huge drop off from Ardie.
Which I found disappointing as that Aussie back row was hardly scary. Decent, but nothing to be worried about. I'm happy to attribute most of that due to lack of game time btw.
@MajorRage said in Bledisloe 2:
@Bones said in Bledisloe 2:
@MajorRage said in Bledisloe 2:
@Bones said in Bledisloe 2:
@MajorRage said in Bledisloe 2:
I think we were all a bit disappointed with Hoskins
Huh, really? I thought he had a decent game and showed why he's worth persevering with. Hit contact hard for a guy that's been out so long and showed a grind I didn't know he had. Plus those handling skills bring a whole lot of opportunity to those around him.
It's just a shame I immediately contracted a sniper to execute him, after he put in the grubber.
He was part of a back row that got dominated, in my view.
I'm not saying to write him off. Far from it.
I was far from disappointed is what I'm saying. He went better than I thought he would.
Thats fine. We don't need to agree on everything. I felt he was ineffective at ruck times, barely made the gain line & his decision to chip with players in support was awful. The fact that 49 people voted in the MOTM thread and nobody picked Sotutu at all is where I was coming from with my "we".
Basically, it was a huge drop off from Ardie.
Which I found disappointing as that Aussie back row was hardly scary. Decent, but nothing to be worried about. I'm happy to attribute most of that due to lack of game time btw.
Valentini has been one of the standout loose forwards in the RC in my view. And he again showed it in Bledisloe 1. He was pretty good against the Poms also.
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@MajorRage said in Bledisloe 2:
@Bones said in Bledisloe 2:
@MajorRage geez, if you're not in the top 3 players, you're disappointing? Interesting take.
I think it's a fair thing to say when 15 of 23 players (including many non-starters) get votes in the MOTM poll that TSF is disappointed with those starters who didn't get any votes.
Thats my take.
I think that's an extremely weird and wrong take. That's not what a MOTM poll is for. Especially when people throw votes in just because favourites or to fuck with things. You think Christie is deserving of a vote? All it does is give a good reflection of the top 3, not the disappointments. You want the DOTM poll.
My take is derived from the distinct lack of volume of posts regarding just how disappointing Sotutu was.
@Bones said in Bledisloe 2:
@MajorRage said in Bledisloe 2:
@Bones said in Bledisloe 2:
@MajorRage geez, if you're not in the top 3 players, you're disappointing? Interesting take.
I think it's a fair thing to say when 15 of 23 players (including many non-starters) get votes in the MOTM poll that TSF is disappointed with those starters who didn't get any votes.
Thats my take.
I think that's an extremely weird and wrong take. That's not what a MOTM poll is for. Especially when people throw votes in just because favourites or to fuck with things. You think Christie is deserving of a vote? All it does is give a good reflection of the top 3, not the disappointments. You want the DOTM poll.
My take is derived from the distinct lack of volume of posts regarding just how disappointing Sotutu was.
As I stated above, we don't need to agree on everything. FWIW I think Sotutu would top the DOTM poll. Just my take, again, we don't need to agree.
I think Sotutu was disappointing, many others do as well. You don't.
We move on.
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@Bones said in Bledisloe 2:
@MajorRage said in Bledisloe 2:
@Bones said in Bledisloe 2:
@MajorRage geez, if you're not in the top 3 players, you're disappointing? Interesting take.
I think it's a fair thing to say when 15 of 23 players (including many non-starters) get votes in the MOTM poll that TSF is disappointed with those starters who didn't get any votes.
Thats my take.
I think that's an extremely weird and wrong take. That's not what a MOTM poll is for. Especially when people throw votes in just because favourites or to fuck with things. You think Christie is deserving of a vote? All it does is give a good reflection of the top 3, not the disappointments. You want the DOTM poll.
My take is derived from the distinct lack of volume of posts regarding just how disappointing Sotutu was.
As I stated above, we don't need to agree on everything. FWIW I think Sotutu would top the DOTM poll. Just my take, again, we don't need to agree.
I think Sotutu was disappointing, many others do as well. You don't.
We move on.
@MajorRage said in Bledisloe 2:
@Bones said in Bledisloe 2:
@MajorRage said in Bledisloe 2:
@Bones said in Bledisloe 2:
@MajorRage geez, if you're not in the top 3 players, you're disappointing? Interesting take.
I think it's a fair thing to say when 15 of 23 players (including many non-starters) get votes in the MOTM poll that TSF is disappointed with those starters who didn't get any votes.
Thats my take.
I think that's an extremely weird and wrong take. That's not what a MOTM poll is for. Especially when people throw votes in just because favourites or to fuck with things. You think Christie is deserving of a vote? All it does is give a good reflection of the top 3, not the disappointments. You want the DOTM poll.
My take is derived from the distinct lack of volume of posts regarding just how disappointing Sotutu was.
As I stated above, we don't need to agree on everything.
I think Sotutu was disappointing, many others do as well. You don't.
We move on.
Yeah Sotutu was disappointing but I think he can be a lot better. I think a lot of people need to remember how hard it is to jump into that position when he’s had f all chances because the guy ahead of him is essentially our best player. He was rusty but he wasn’t horrendous, this is why Foster needs to find minutes for guys like Sotutu.
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@MajorRage said in Bledisloe 2:
@Bones said in Bledisloe 2:
@MajorRage said in Bledisloe 2:
@Bones said in Bledisloe 2:
@MajorRage geez, if you're not in the top 3 players, you're disappointing? Interesting take.
I think it's a fair thing to say when 15 of 23 players (including many non-starters) get votes in the MOTM poll that TSF is disappointed with those starters who didn't get any votes.
Thats my take.
I think that's an extremely weird and wrong take. That's not what a MOTM poll is for. Especially when people throw votes in just because favourites or to fuck with things. You think Christie is deserving of a vote? All it does is give a good reflection of the top 3, not the disappointments. You want the DOTM poll.
My take is derived from the distinct lack of volume of posts regarding just how disappointing Sotutu was.
As I stated above, we don't need to agree on everything.
I think Sotutu was disappointing, many others do as well. You don't.
We move on.
Yeah Sotutu was disappointing but I think he can be a lot better. I think a lot of people need to remember how hard it is to jump into that position when he’s had f all chances because the guy ahead of him is essentially our best player. He was rusty but he wasn’t horrendous, this is why Foster needs to find minutes for guys like Sotutu.
@Canes4life said in Bledisloe 2:
@MajorRage said in Bledisloe 2:
@Bones said in Bledisloe 2:
@MajorRage said in Bledisloe 2:
@Bones said in Bledisloe 2:
@MajorRage geez, if you're not in the top 3 players, you're disappointing? Interesting take.
I think it's a fair thing to say when 15 of 23 players (including many non-starters) get votes in the MOTM poll that TSF is disappointed with those starters who didn't get any votes.
Thats my take.
I think that's an extremely weird and wrong take. That's not what a MOTM poll is for. Especially when people throw votes in just because favourites or to fuck with things. You think Christie is deserving of a vote? All it does is give a good reflection of the top 3, not the disappointments. You want the DOTM poll.
My take is derived from the distinct lack of volume of posts regarding just how disappointing Sotutu was.
As I stated above, we don't need to agree on everything.
I think Sotutu was disappointing, many others do as well. You don't.
We move on.
Yeah Sotutu was disappointing but I think he can be a lot better. I think a lot of people need to remember how hard it is to jump into that position when he’s had f all chances because the guy ahead of him is essentially our best player. He was rusty but he wasn’t horrendous, this is why Foster needs to find minutes for guys like Sotutu.
All points I made further up the thread!
Certainly not suggesting to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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@Bones said in Bledisloe 2:
@MajorRage said in Bledisloe 2:
@Bones said in Bledisloe 2:
@MajorRage geez, if you're not in the top 3 players, you're disappointing? Interesting take.
I think it's a fair thing to say when 15 of 23 players (including many non-starters) get votes in the MOTM poll that TSF is disappointed with those starters who didn't get any votes.
Thats my take.
I think that's an extremely weird and wrong take. That's not what a MOTM poll is for. Especially when people throw votes in just because favourites or to fuck with things. You think Christie is deserving of a vote? All it does is give a good reflection of the top 3, not the disappointments. You want the DOTM poll.
My take is derived from the distinct lack of volume of posts regarding just how disappointing Sotutu was.
As I stated above, we don't need to agree on everything. FWIW I think Sotutu would top the DOTM poll. Just my take, again, we don't need to agree.
I think Sotutu was disappointing, many others do as well. You don't.
We move on.
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@MajorRage so to put it another way, what was disappointing about his game?
He'd be far from the top, Jordan and Clarke were poor. DP did a good suitcase. Mounga because he's Mounga.
@Bones grab tackling and holding back from impact Point. Got really frustrated watching him in first half.
Had a spell as a match analyst many years ago. We used to record the actions and also their quality then. The stats quoted on this forum completely overlook the latter. E. G. Scrag tackles that lose momentum get points but huge efforts in effective covering that don't stop the player themself are shown as missed tackles. Defensive errors and laziness that means no tackle is attempted are not shown. The ratings on our wingers suggest many look at pure stats only and not impact.
Same with loosies. One lazy poorly executed clean out by a loosie ultimately allowed Australia to get in front. Won't have been highlighted in the stats either. Execution errors like kicking on a break with players alongside in a scoring position get missed too.
I value energy agility and positional urgency very highly in players and value the glossy things far less. Give me a Cane or Sami constantly in the face of the opposition in the biggest contact areas, every time over someone who has a big run after being put into space by their work. Cam Roigard in npc shows the same set of qualities. Beauden Barrett, Aaron Smith and ALB show it too. These are the guys who the players value for doing the hardest work on their behalf.
What do others think on the value of the stats being presented after matches? -
@Bones grab tackling and holding back from impact Point. Got really frustrated watching him in first half.
Had a spell as a match analyst many years ago. We used to record the actions and also their quality then. The stats quoted on this forum completely overlook the latter. E. G. Scrag tackles that lose momentum get points but huge efforts in effective covering that don't stop the player themself are shown as missed tackles. Defensive errors and laziness that means no tackle is attempted are not shown. The ratings on our wingers suggest many look at pure stats only and not impact.
Same with loosies. One lazy poorly executed clean out by a loosie ultimately allowed Australia to get in front. Won't have been highlighted in the stats either. Execution errors like kicking on a break with players alongside in a scoring position get missed too.
I value energy agility and positional urgency very highly in players and value the glossy things far less. Give me a Cane or Sami constantly in the face of the opposition in the biggest contact areas, every time over someone who has a big run after being put into space by their work. Cam Roigard in npc shows the same set of qualities. Beauden Barrett, Aaron Smith and ALB show it too. These are the guys who the players value for doing the hardest work on their behalf.
What do others think on the value of the stats being presented after matches?@ARHS said in Bledisloe 2:
@Bones grab tackling and holding back from impact Point. Got really frustrated watching him in first half.
Guy has talent but the question is how long until in sinks in that what works at lower levels doesn't always at the top? I get sick of seeing talented players reach the ABs then try to grab tackle and swot their way through defences. I will forgive not seeing them steam onto the ball like we saw with the Aussies only because the gameplan hasn't been set up that way.
We see so many players like that in NZ that it makes you wonder if there needs to be a special coaching unit to transition them properly (and quickly). Otherwise NH clubs pay for the raw talent and back themselves to do so.
There's a bit of this still left with Akira, Clarke etc.
It's funny because watching CM play last night I was noticing just how quickly Sam Slade has knuckled down and I guess it was work done at Moana Pasifika.
A good parallel could be Luatua. He was just coming around when he left then Lam got a great player at Bristol. Luatua in his early Bristol seasons would have been a walk in with the ABs.
I hope Sotutu doesn't get lost to us and someone else gets the best of him. -
@Crucial don't think Jacobson will be named although I get that's what you want (my want is Fakatava jersey 21
think the team is announced at 11:30 usually@FakatavaAllBlack I know how much you love Fakatava, but don't think he's been putting out the same quality as Christie in black so far.
He's got huge upside, but doesn't seem to have kicked on yet ... but there is time. Christie's pace and defensive work is really good, he's really stepped up the last few years
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I am assuming that SF and SC aren't available.
Do they stick with SB at 6 and Ardie 8 with DP getting a chance to improve or will it be Sotutu that gets that chance with Ardie at 7?
I don't like the balance of Ardie and Hoskins together at all.
As a one off I do like the idea of our back three playing more traditional roles. Let's keep the 6 and 8 close. Jacobsen the better option for stopping the Oz loosies rampaging from deep and Ardie the better option to range out and make Jordan's tackles for him. -
@FakatavaAllBlack I know how much you love Fakatava, but don't think he's been putting out the same quality as Christie in black so far.
He's got huge upside, but doesn't seem to have kicked on yet ... but there is time. Christie's pace and defensive work is really good, he's really stepped up the last few years
@nzzp hasn't had the chance to show his wears over the last two months, as I've said before those Irish tests where we were on a hiding to nothing was a tough introduction for Folau, Fakatava & Sevu Reece are just two guys i would like to see in our final rugby championship Test
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I would like to see Jacobson given a start at 8, ardie 7 and give AI another go at 6... Just for learnings...
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Sotutu to stay at 8 is my preference. He's been in the squad all year, he deserves a shot to step up. I'd be challenging him to play a little tighter with Ardie there. I also expect SB at 6. Pretty awesome lineout options in that trio too
@voodoo said in Bledisloe 2:
Sotutu to stay at 8 is my preference. He's been in the squad all year, he deserves a shot to step up. I'd be challenging him to play a little tighter with Ardie there. I also expect SBH at 6. Pretty awesome lineout options in that trio too
Yup, fair enough point. They have used SB, SF a lot in the line out in recent matches. And Sotutu is another great target...
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@Bones grab tackling and holding back from impact Point. Got really frustrated watching him in first half.
Had a spell as a match analyst many years ago. We used to record the actions and also their quality then. The stats quoted on this forum completely overlook the latter. E. G. Scrag tackles that lose momentum get points but huge efforts in effective covering that don't stop the player themself are shown as missed tackles. Defensive errors and laziness that means no tackle is attempted are not shown. The ratings on our wingers suggest many look at pure stats only and not impact.
Same with loosies. One lazy poorly executed clean out by a loosie ultimately allowed Australia to get in front. Won't have been highlighted in the stats either. Execution errors like kicking on a break with players alongside in a scoring position get missed too.
I value energy agility and positional urgency very highly in players and value the glossy things far less. Give me a Cane or Sami constantly in the face of the opposition in the biggest contact areas, every time over someone who has a big run after being put into space by their work. Cam Roigard in npc shows the same set of qualities. Beauden Barrett, Aaron Smith and ALB show it too. These are the guys who the players value for doing the hardest work on their behalf.
What do others think on the value of the stats being presented after matches?@ARHS said in Bledisloe 2:
What do others think on the value of the stats being presented after matches?
They're a very blunt instrument for analysis.
Catch a long kick in the 22 and run back fast, you'll get 40 easy running metres - compared to some guy who repeatedly hits the ball up one off the ruck.
Missed tackles - as you note - work hard to get one hand to a guy and slow him, gets a black mark compared to the guy who doesn't get there.
Lineouts won accrue to the thrower not the jumper - that's completely uninteresting! Who thought up that dumb idea!
