All Blacks v England
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@cgrant said in All Blacks v England:
Last week, the bench won the game for NZ. Against England, it transformed a probable glorious victory into a headscratching draw.
This I agree with 100%
Agree that Jordy at 12 is a beast. Straightens attack, BB days I think are behind him. Off bench yep but we need to try Jordan at the back
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Well, that was one of the greatest comebacks of all time from England. Three tries in the last 10 minutes against a Tier 1 team is an incredible effort, massive kudos to them. Kicking the ball out for the draw though is something I cannot wrap my head around, they were carving us to shreds and would have got the ball over halfway pretty quickly I reckon, then it's all on for a penalty. @Catogrande as our English representative on here, I'm interested to hear your take on that - are the fans up there fine with that? I would have torn my hair out at that after such an amazing comeback.
We came out of the blocks fast in the first half and really had them under the pump. That was the best start we've made in a long time against a top side, our forwards were smacking them around and our backs looked very dangerous. That was a joy to watch. Dalton was awesome and Clarke had his best game in a long time.
Then in the second half England got an early penalty and really dominated the rest of that half. We had moments where we could have arrested momentum but some costly errors like missing touch just handed it back to them. We just can't afford mistakes like that when we are under the pump. Even more so in the final game of long hard season where we were fading.
I can't really single any one player out though. The BB droppie got us a 19 point lead with 10 to go, that should be more than enough. The BB YC was harsh as well, he got back to his feet and was competing for the ball - yeah he didn't really give the English play time to release but at the same time the defending player gets awarded the penalty more often than not there. Once it was a penalty it had to be a card though.
Most players had good moments but also made errors. Mo'unga ran with the ball well but also made costly errors. Codie was good around the park but mucked up some crucial lineouts. Rieko was a threat all game but his hands let him down a few times, and the neck roll to rub out his try wasn't smart play.
Overall though I'm happy with how the EOYT has played out. We've always struggled to win big at the end of our season, and 25-6 at 70 minutes against England in the final game is friggen awesome. We'll win from that position in a WC basically every time. We've come a long way since the Irish series where we now know 90% of what our top side is, we have some genuinely world class players in our pack and in the backline, and plenty of experience to boot. I'm excited about next year and our chances at the RWC once our top side has had more time together.
Can’t say about the wider view for sure as I have spent the afternoon in the safety of home/pub/curry house, but initially I was internally screaming for Smith to kick it dead and take the draw but on reflection I feel it highlighted where England are currently, which is having very fragile confidence. Same as me currently as an England fan. I also see parallels here with NZ at the moment, in that if things go your way early doors then the confidence grows but if the reverse happens the confidence levels plummet.
As a case in point, the early interception try (which I feel was looked for and had Joe Schmidt’s finerprints all over it), rocked England badly. I really think that made NZ grow an extra leg and left England looking for the zimmer frame and it took quite a while for England’s psyche to regain any confidence.
Overall I’m just a little disappointed, as I feel that with a tweaked selection and a bit more common sense in the replacement selection, we really could have won. I feel we have a much better team just waiting to be picked.
Selection conclusions for England:- Billy V and Jack Nowell should not wear white again. Farrell or Smith, not Farrell and Smith. Tuilagi at 12 or on the bench. A couple of wingers with pace or power or preferably both.
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We lost control of the game when the bench came on they were shit.
Saying we looked tired Fucking hell we had pretty much 8 fresh players on for the last 10.We need to look at different bench players to close out the games.
@Chris said in All Blacks v England:
We lost control of the game when the bench came on they were shit.
Saying we looked tired Fucking hell we had pretty much 8 fresh players on for the last 10.We need to look at different bench players to close out the games.
Havili and Frizzel are not the right players to have on the bench. Both are found wanting at this level anyway, not sure why we thought they'd be adequate to come on at the end of a big test. That was poor selection but for some reason the coaches love those two players despite repeatedly poor performances.
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@Chris said in All Blacks v England:
We lost control of the game when the bench came on they were shit.
Saying we looked tired Fucking hell we had pretty much 8 fresh players on for the last 10.We need to look at different bench players to close out the games.
Havili and Frizzel are not the right players to have on the bench. Both are found wanting at this level anyway, not sure why we thought they'd be adequate to come on at the end of a big test. That was poor selection but for some reason the coaches love those two players despite repeatedly poor performances.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v England:
@Chris said in All Blacks v England:
We lost control of the game when the bench came on they were shit.
Saying we looked tired Fucking hell we had pretty much 8 fresh players on for the last 10.We need to look at different bench players to close out the games.
Havili and Frizzel are not the right players to have on the bench. Both are found wanting at this level anyway, not sure why we thought they'd be adequate to come on at the end of a big test. That was poor selection but for some reason the coaches love those two players despite repeatedly poor performances.
No impact. The most concerning thing going forward is that we may have the cattle in the squad to compete with anyone, but if the tactics and selections are wrong we will be left frustrated
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@Chris said in All Blacks v England:
We lost control of the game when the bench came on they were shit.
Saying we looked tired Fucking hell we had pretty much 8 fresh players on for the last 10.We need to look at different bench players to close out the games.
Havili and Frizzel are not the right players to have on the bench. Both are found wanting at this level anyway, not sure why we thought they'd be adequate to come on at the end of a big test. That was poor selection but for some reason the coaches love those two players despite repeatedly poor performances.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v England:
@Chris said in All Blacks v England:
We lost control of the game when the bench came on they were shit.
Saying we looked tired Fucking hell we had pretty much 8 fresh players on for the last 10.We need to look at different bench players to close out the games.
Havili and Frizzel are not the right players to have on the bench. Both are found wanting at this level anyway, not sure why we thought they'd be adequate to come on at the end of a big test. That was poor selection but for some reason the coaches love those two players despite repeatedly poor performances.
Laulau as well,TJ even ALB was shit again.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v England:
@Chris said in All Blacks v England:
We lost control of the game when the bench came on they were shit.
Saying we looked tired Fucking hell we had pretty much 8 fresh players on for the last 10.We need to look at different bench players to close out the games.
Havili and Frizzel are not the right players to have on the bench. Both are found wanting at this level anyway, not sure why we thought they'd be adequate to come on at the end of a big test. That was poor selection but for some reason the coaches love those two players despite repeatedly poor performances.
Laulau as well,TJ even ALB was shit again.
@Chris that bench I'd say both props, SF, Havili and ALB in the same 8 was always playing with fire, very little impact or spark at all, TJ was an odd call too, but you'd have expected a bit more game sense from him at the least, and he had been playing bloody well to earn a recall.
Hopefully a few players have good super rugby and push out some of these fringe players that aren't offering much off the bench, let alone pushing for a start.
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@Chris that bench I'd say both props, SF, Havili and ALB in the same 8 was always playing with fire, very little impact or spark at all, TJ was an odd call too, but you'd have expected a bit more game sense from him at the least, and he had been playing bloody well to earn a recall.
Hopefully a few players have good super rugby and push out some of these fringe players that aren't offering much off the bench, let alone pushing for a start.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v England:
@Chris that bench I'd say both props, SF, Havili and ALB in the same 8 was always playing with fire, very little impact or spark at all, TJ was an odd call too, but you'd have expected a bit more game sense from him at the least, and he had been playing bloody well to earn a recall.
Hopefully a few players have good super rugby and push out some of these fringe players that aren't offering much off the bench, let alone pushing for a start.
agree the starting 15 plus ST we look Ok.
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Very disappointing (more on that later) but I'd just say that the performance last night shows that we most certainly do have the cattle. What is lacking is the leadership, structure and right selections (what was even the point of having Havili there). As frustrating as that is at least we can say that there have been some vast improvements.
Oh yeah, JB at 12
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v England:
@Chris that bench I'd say both props, SF, Havili and ALB in the same 8 was always playing with fire, very little impact or spark at all, TJ was an odd call too, but you'd have expected a bit more game sense from him at the least, and he had been playing bloody well to earn a recall.
Hopefully a few players have good super rugby and push out some of these fringe players that aren't offering much off the bench, let alone pushing for a start.
agree the starting 15 plus ST we look Ok.
@Chris said in All Blacks v England:
agree the starting 15 plus ST we look Ok.
To make the best use of the hookers, Taukei'aho should be starting. Then you can bring on the Crusaders front row in the 2nd half.
Savea isn't a natural 7 anymore, so there needs to be proper openside cover in the reserves rather than moving him. Who is wearing the 19 and 20 jerseys should change when everyone is available again (assuming Barrett stays at 6).
Hopefully when Jordan is back we see a more balanced bench in the no.22 and 23 jerseys.
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Raynal would have blown a penalty in that last minute if we tried to run the clock I'm also certain.
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At least the things we’ve learnt from the Northern Tour leading into next year is that Papali’i is better than Cane, Jordie is our 12, Will Jordan needs to start at fullback next year, and our starting front row needs to continue developing together through to the WC.
The question is whether Foster has enough balls to drop Cane and Barrett from the top 15, I guess time will tell.
I’m also picking Cam Roigard as a bolter for the WC. That Perenara injury looks bad and with Fakatava out for a while, I’m picking Roigard to outplay both Christie and Weber in Super to move up the pecking order.
@Canes4life said in All Blacks v England:
At least the things we’ve learnt from the Northern Tour leading into next year is that Papali’i is better than Cane, Jordie is our 12, Will Jordan needs to start at fullback next year, and our starting front row needs to continue developing together through to the WC.
The question is whether Foster has enough balls to drop Cane and Barrett from the top 15, I guess time will tell.
Foster has not dropped a single long-time starter in his entire AB head coaching career that I can recall. That does not inspire confidence that he will start now.
I'm impressed that some here think the NH tour showed good improvements. We were within a score of losing to Japan (I know they are getting better, but we usually field a full "B" outfit against them and win by plenty). We had a decent win against a fairly hapless Welsh side, but couldn't put away Scotland. Then that collapse against England. I don't see much upwards trajectory.
Our selections are better, thanks to some lucky injuries -- let's face it, if Havili hadn't been injured he's still be starting -- and the forwards have played well in parts. But mentally we remain frail.
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So it’s pretty much confirmed that we don’t have a ten in either BB or RM that can drive us around the park, and make 65mins of forward dominance pay.
Do we start looking at DMac and Perofeta from the bench as ten subs to see if they can do it?
We stick with RM at ten then we have very little chance at winning a World Cup. And as a bonus, be a team that lose from anywhere.
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Perenaras injury did look bad, possibly hard for him to get back to WC contention if he is going to be needing surgery.
Still a lot of work to do, at 22-6 we should have put 40+ on them. Still the Irish and French have been looking a little bit more vulnerable in places recently so things may be bit more of an even playing field next year
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@Damo said in All Blacks v England:
BB's stupid drop goal did not help but it was the defence out wide that let us down.
Huh? If he missed the kick we likely would have gone for the penalty anyway.
@sparky said in All Blacks v England:
Eddie Jones has done us an enormous favour there. Our current defence is no where near good enough for the last ten minutes of a RWC knockout. A big rethink of that area is needed.
Yeah, I think this last 10 minutes might be beneficial for next year as we'll have a rethink and focus on it. Kind of like 2009 when we had to rethink our wing style to combat kicks.
I don't think Smith is going to a popular guy in the changing room, Farrell and the nearest prop looked pissed when he kicked that out.
@Nepia said in All Blacks v England:
@Damo said in All Blacks v England:
BB's stupid drop goal did not help but it was the defence out wide that let us down.
Huh? If he missed the kick we likely would have gone for the penalty anyway.
It was a dumb play and he's done it many times before. It's a free play when on advantage, go for maximum points.
We were up by 16 at that stage, taking the dropkick meant England still had to score 3 tries to win it. Surely the better option was to take it outside the 3 try margin by scoring a try. Even if nothing eventuated from it we would have then gone back to the penalty and more importantly killed off a couple of minutes.
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What a loser
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@Nepia said in All Blacks v England:
@Damo said in All Blacks v England:
BB's stupid drop goal did not help but it was the defence out wide that let us down.
Huh? If he missed the kick we likely would have gone for the penalty anyway.
It was a dumb play and he's done it many times before. It's a free play when on advantage, go for maximum points.
We were up by 16 at that stage, taking the dropkick meant England still had to score 3 tries to win it. Surely the better option was to take it outside the 3 try margin by scoring a try. Even if nothing eventuated from it we would have then gone back to the penalty and more importantly killed off a couple of minutes.
@akan004 said in All Blacks v England:
@Nepia said in All Blacks v England:
@Damo said in All Blacks v England:
BB's stupid drop goal did not help but it was the defence out wide that let us down.
Huh? If he missed the kick we likely would have gone for the penalty anyway.
It was a dumb play and he's done it many times before. It's a free play when on advantage, go for maximum points.
We were up by 16 at that stage, taking the dropkick meant England still had to score 3 tries to win it. Surely the better option was to take it outside the 3 try margin by scoring a try. Even if nothing eventuated from it we would have then gone back to the penalty and more importantly killed off a couple of minutes.
Surely not. Take the 3 points. Then you are just seeking 3 more points to make the game safe.
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks v England:
but England ran through some big holes.
just as the Irish did at the start of the year.
For all the improvements we have made, our defence is still pretty shit, leaking 22 points in the 2nd half is a shocker!
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v England:
For all the improvements we have made, our defence is still pretty shit, leaking 22 points in the 2nd half is a shocker!
A recent record?
