Black Caps v England
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Can someone enlighten me what the selectors see in Tickner?
He averages 35 with the ball in first class cricket.
He hasn't impressed with his chances for the Black Caps.
How does he keep getting selected?
@KiwiMurph said in Black Caps v England:
Can someone enlighten me what the selectors see in Tickner?
He averages 35 with the ball in first class cricket.
He hasn't impressed with his chances for the Black Caps.
How does he keep getting selected?
Simple, Gary Stead is out of his depth and is easily the most under-qualified coach NZ's had, even Andy Moles had a significantly better CV.
Hesson had interesting people skills, but he had an exceptional nose for a player and understood how to build depth...
One of his most underrated achievements was building two good ODI bowling attacks for the 2015 WC in 3 years (Boult, Southee, Milne, Vettori, Anderson + Mills, Henry, McClenaghan, NcCullum, Neesham). A lot of those guys fell away but you expect to have player churn.
What we didn't do under Stead and was plan ahead. At all.... and we got away with it for a while because 1) Hesson had developed the bulk of the team (including the next options) that Stead took to 2019 World Cup & beyond. 2) a golden generation of players who picked themselves - which coincided with Stead at the helm as they reached playing maturity.
The last 2-3 years have shown Stead actually having to build a team himself, it's patently obvious that he's not up to the task.
Hesson was a coach that gave youngsters a shot to learn and experience at international level games, he would mix and match in certain areas we needed to improve on and make a change as soon as he noticed something wasn't going right... he was an adaptable coach - whereas Stead is a coach that waits for everyone to get old and also just hopes for the best with the team he plays in each game...we win, we win...we lose, we lose type of coach.
He can't make decisive selection calls at the optimal & appropriate time - his selection approach is contradictory in many ways - he persists with one thing, then changes his mind on a whim, see persisting with Munro as an ODI opener throughout 2019 WC before throwing Nicholls in at the last minute possible. Stead has fixed ideas that aren't adaptable depending on different circumstances & he displays no method or consistency in his selections whatsoever.
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It's all very well lumping shit on Stead, but I spent a bit of time watching Super Smash this year (the first time in a long time that I have watched domestic cricket) and the biggest take away I got was the lack of quality players going around. I know it was only T20, but it really disappointed me. I fear we are quickly heading back to the bad old days. If the players aren't there we can't pick them.
I can understand why Boult wasn't picked. He has indicated playing for NZ is no longer his priority. Picking him would be a band aid solution at best.
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There just aren't any/many talented seam bowlers in NZ at the moment younger than 30.
There is little to pick from once Henry and Jamieson are removed.
It's a quirk of generational talent. For a decade - we had a whole test-teams worth of seam bowling talent that couldn't get a match (McClenaghan, Bennett, Milne, Fergusson, Henry) because of the logjam ahead of them. (Edit. Even someone as fringe as Seth Rance of that era is better than the current options. Although Seth is still playing, but he's getting on)
Now, it will be the opposite, We will probably have 3 or 4 years of a merry-go-round of not-test-standard-talent bowlers elevated for bit to see how they go.
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There just aren't any/many talented seam bowlers in NZ at the moment younger than 30.
There is little to pick from once Henry and Jamieson are removed.
It's a quirk of generational talent. For a decade - we had a whole test-teams worth of seam bowling talent that couldn't get a match (McClenaghan, Bennett, Milne, Fergusson, Henry) because of the logjam ahead of them. (Edit. Even someone as fringe as Seth Rance of that era is better than the current options. Although Seth is still playing, but he's getting on)
Now, it will be the opposite, We will probably have 3 or 4 years of a merry-go-round of not-test-standard-talent bowlers elevated for bit to see how they go.
@Rapido unfortunately our batting has the same problem.
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It's all very well lumping shit on Stead, but I spent a bit of time watching Super Smash this year (the first time in a long time that I have watched domestic cricket) and the biggest take away I got was the lack of quality players going around. I know it was only T20, but it really disappointed me. I fear we are quickly heading back to the bad old days. If the players aren't there we can't pick them.
I can understand why Boult wasn't picked. He has indicated playing for NZ is no longer his priority. Picking him would be a band aid solution at best.
@Crazy-Horse said in Black Caps v England:
It's all very well lumping shit on Stead, but I spent a bit of time watching Super Smash this year (the first time in a long time that I have watched domestic cricket) and the biggest take away I got was the lack of quality players going around. I know it was only T20, but it really disappointed me. I fear we are quickly heading back to the bad old days. If the players aren't there we can't pick them.
I can understand why Boult wasn't picked. He has indicated playing for NZ is no longer his priority. Picking him would be a band aid solution at best.
Yeah Totally agree Selections for One are not all on Steads head the Captains and Larsen have massive input.
And I agree I watched the Super Smash this year and I was not impressed with the talent coming though.
That maybe because I am involved with the Underage State Level Teams here and the talent is insane Honestly we could have taken 3 Qld teams to the nationals easily.
So maybe it is that I am spoilt at what I see and coach.
But no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
As for Tickler not a great record but he is tall and can bowl 145 plus clicks so I see why they are trying him. -
There just aren't any/many talented seam bowlers in NZ at the moment younger than 30.
There is little to pick from once Henry and Jamieson are removed.
It's a quirk of generational talent. For a decade - we had a whole test-teams worth of seam bowling talent that couldn't get a match (McClenaghan, Bennett, Milne, Fergusson, Henry) because of the logjam ahead of them. (Edit. Even someone as fringe as Seth Rance of that era is better than the current options. Although Seth is still playing, but he's getting on)
Now, it will be the opposite, We will probably have 3 or 4 years of a merry-go-round of not-test-standard-talent bowlers elevated for bit to see how they go.
@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
There just aren't any/many talented seam bowlers in NZ at the moment younger than 30
wondering where these guys are that you were talking about no more than a month ago?
"Actually, pace is the one bright spot, of the young guys on domestics"
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@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
There just aren't any/many talented seam bowlers in NZ at the moment younger than 30
wondering where these guys are that you were talking about no more than a month ago?
"Actually, pace is the one bright spot, of the young guys on domestics"
@mariner4life said in Black Caps v England:
@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
There just aren't any/many talented seam bowlers in NZ at the moment younger than 30
wondering where these guys are that you were talking about no more than a month ago?
"Actually, pace is the one bright spot, of the young guys on domestics"
Yes to be fair I haven't seen them watching the SS,135ks maybe but no one over 140 Tickner gets it around 145 plus.
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@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
There just aren't any/many talented seam bowlers in NZ at the moment younger than 30
wondering where these guys are that you were talking about no more than a month ago?
"Actually, pace is the one bright spot, of the young guys on domestics"
@mariner4life said in Black Caps v England:
@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
There just aren't any/many talented seam bowlers in NZ at the moment younger than 30
wondering where these guys are that you were talking about no more than a month ago?
"Actually, pace is the one bright spot, of the young guys on domestics"
Sears injured, Fisher injured. O'Rourke fit (but still too early, least progressed of the 3, would want him in the next A series, if we have one)
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@mariner4life said in Black Caps v England:
@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
There just aren't any/many talented seam bowlers in NZ at the moment younger than 30
wondering where these guys are that you were talking about no more than a month ago?
"Actually, pace is the one bright spot, of the young guys on domestics"
Sears injured, Fisher injured. O'Rourke fit (but still too early, least progressed of the 3, would want him in the next A series, if we have one)
@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
@mariner4life said in Black Caps v England:
@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
There just aren't any/many talented seam bowlers in NZ at the moment younger than 30
wondering where these guys are that you were talking about no more than a month ago?
"Actually, pace is the one bright spot, of the young guys on domestics"
Sears injured, Fisher injured. O'Rourke fit (but still too early, least progressed of the 3, would want him in the next A series, if we have one)
I watched O'Rourke he would be 135ks tops so not really pace.
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@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
@mariner4life said in Black Caps v England:
@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
There just aren't any/many talented seam bowlers in NZ at the moment younger than 30
wondering where these guys are that you were talking about no more than a month ago?
"Actually, pace is the one bright spot, of the young guys on domestics"
Sears injured, Fisher injured. O'Rourke fit (but still too early, least progressed of the 3, would want him in the next A series, if we have one)
I watched O'Rourke he would be 135ks tops so not really pace.
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
@mariner4life said in Black Caps v England:
@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
There just aren't any/many talented seam bowlers in NZ at the moment younger than 30
wondering where these guys are that you were talking about no more than a month ago?
"Actually, pace is the one bright spot, of the young guys on domestics"
Sears injured, Fisher injured. O'Rourke fit (but still too early, least progressed of the 3, would want him in the next A series, if we have one)
I watched O'Rourke he would be 135ks tops so not really pace.
Agree about O'Rouke's pace, he ain't quick. But on the plus side, he does appear to be somewhat awkward to face.
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@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
@mariner4life said in Black Caps v England:
@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
There just aren't any/many talented seam bowlers in NZ at the moment younger than 30
wondering where these guys are that you were talking about no more than a month ago?
"Actually, pace is the one bright spot, of the young guys on domestics"
Sears injured, Fisher injured. O'Rourke fit (but still too early, least progressed of the 3, would want him in the next A series, if we have one)
I watched O'Rourke he would be 135ks tops so not really pace.
Agree about O'Rouke's pace, he ain't quick. But on the plus side, he does appear to be somewhat awkward to face.
@Crazy-Horse said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
@mariner4life said in Black Caps v England:
@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
There just aren't any/many talented seam bowlers in NZ at the moment younger than 30
wondering where these guys are that you were talking about no more than a month ago?
"Actually, pace is the one bright spot, of the young guys on domestics"
Sears injured, Fisher injured. O'Rourke fit (but still too early, least progressed of the 3, would want him in the next A series, if we have one)
I watched O'Rourke he would be 135ks tops so not really pace.
Agree about O'Rouke's pace he ain't quick. But on the plus side, he does appear to be somewhat awkward to face.
Yep bit of bounce there short of a length could be handy.
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@Crazy-Horse said in Black Caps v England:
It's all very well lumping shit on Stead, but I spent a bit of time watching Super Smash this year (the first time in a long time that I have watched domestic cricket) and the biggest take away I got was the lack of quality players going around. I know it was only T20, but it really disappointed me. I fear we are quickly heading back to the bad old days. If the players aren't there we can't pick them.
I can understand why Boult wasn't picked. He has indicated playing for NZ is no longer his priority. Picking him would be a band aid solution at best.
Yeah Totally agree Selections for One are not all on Steads head the Captains and Larsen have massive input.
And I agree I watched the Super Smash this year and I was not impressed with the talent coming though.
That maybe because I am involved with the Underage State Level Teams here and the talent is insane Honestly we could have taken 3 Qld teams to the nationals easily.
So maybe it is that I am spoilt at what I see and coach.
But no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
As for Tickler not a great record but he is tall and can bowl 145 plus clicks so I see why they are trying him.@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
But no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
NZ contracted players from 2021/2022?
Conway, Latham, Allan, Williamson, Young, Philipps, Nicholls, Blundell, Mitchell, Ferguson, Jamieson, Wagner, Henry, Southee, Sodhi, A.Patel, Santner, Boult*, Milne, Chapman, Neesham, Bracewell, Cleaver, Sears, etc..
Mostly the same players Hesson had, except addition of better players like Mitchell, Conway, Jamieson, Young, which Hesson didn't get to use. Conway for example, had won matches single-handedly for Stead on multiple occasions that we should've lost.
Stephen Fleming would get a lot more out of this current lot, that's for sure.
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@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
But no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
NZ contracted players from 2021/2022?
Conway, Latham, Allan, Williamson, Young, Philipps, Nicholls, Blundell, Mitchell, Ferguson, Jamieson, Wagner, Henry, Southee, Sodhi, A.Patel, Santner, Boult*, Milne, Chapman, Neesham, Bracewell, Cleaver, Sears, etc..
Mostly the same players Hesson had, except addition of better players like Mitchell, Conway, Jamieson, Young, which Hesson didn't get to use. Conway for example, had won matches single-handedly for Stead on multiple occasions that we should've lost.
Stephen Fleming would get a lot more out of this current lot, that's for sure.
@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
But no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
NZ contracted players from 2022 I think?
Conway, Latham, Allan, Williamson, Young, Philipps, Nicholls, Blundell, Mitchell, Ferguson, Jamieson, Wagner, Henry, Southee, Sodhi, A.Patel, Santner, Boult (ODI's), Milne, Chapman, Bracewell, Cleaver, Sears, etc..
Mostly the same players Hesson had, except addition of better players like Mitchell, Conway, Jamieson, Young, which Hesson didn't get to use. Conway for example, had won matches single-handedly for Stead on multiple occasions that we should've lost.
Stephen Fleming would get a lot more out of this current lot, that's for sure.
Well he did win the Test Championship not all Shit.
Fleming is really a white ball coach these days.And was sounded out for a White ball job with NZC but turned it down for the big money on offer overseas in the 20/20 formats.Hesson a good man manager but not really a coach.You will find the Players coached themselves during his reign.
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@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
But no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
NZ contracted players from 2021/2022?
Conway, Latham, Allan, Williamson, Young, Philipps, Nicholls, Blundell, Mitchell, Ferguson, Jamieson, Wagner, Henry, Southee, Sodhi, A.Patel, Santner, Boult*, Milne, Chapman, Neesham, Bracewell, Cleaver, Sears, etc..
Mostly the same players Hesson had, except addition of better players like Mitchell, Conway, Jamieson, Young, which Hesson didn't get to use. Conway for example, had won matches single-handedly for Stead on multiple occasions that we should've lost.
Stephen Fleming would get a lot more out of this current lot, that's for sure.
Blackcaps central contracts list 2022-23: Tom Blundell, Trent Boult, Michael Bracewell, Devon Conway, Colin de Grandhomme, Lockie Ferguson, Martin Guptill, Matt Henry, Kyle Jamieson, Tom Latham, Daryl Mitchell, Henry Nicholls, Ajaz Patel, Glenn Phillips, Mitchell Santner, Ish Sodhi, Tim Southee, Neil Wagner, Kane Williamson, Will Young
Finn Allen and Blair Tickner later replaced Trent Boult and Colin de Grandhomme.
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@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
But no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
NZ contracted players from 2022 I think?
Conway, Latham, Allan, Williamson, Young, Philipps, Nicholls, Blundell, Mitchell, Ferguson, Jamieson, Wagner, Henry, Southee, Sodhi, A.Patel, Santner, Boult (ODI's), Milne, Chapman, Bracewell, Cleaver, Sears, etc..
Mostly the same players Hesson had, except addition of better players like Mitchell, Conway, Jamieson, Young, which Hesson didn't get to use. Conway for example, had won matches single-handedly for Stead on multiple occasions that we should've lost.
Stephen Fleming would get a lot more out of this current lot, that's for sure.
Well he did win the Test Championship not all Shit.
Fleming is really a white ball coach these days.And was sounded out for a White ball job with NZC but turned it down for the big money on offer overseas in the 20/20 formats.Hesson a good man manager but not really a coach.You will find the Players coached themselves during his reign.
@Chris They had option to go with Heinrich but decided he was "too inexperienced" or some poor justification NZR would recite, ironically he was the same age (37) as Hesson when he got the job in 2013.
Edit, found it:
"The job of coaching the New Zealand men's team had reportedly come down to a two-horse race between Stead and Malan with the former, as it turned out, predicted to cross the line by a neck."
"Reportedly, Malan was seen as "a little too early" for the job although the irony was Hesson was appointed when he was 37."
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@Chris They had option to go with Heinrich but decided he was "too inexperienced" or some poor justification NZR would recite, ironically he was the same age (37) as Hesson when he got the job in 2013.
Edit, found it:
"The job of coaching the New Zealand men's team had reportedly come down to a two-horse race between Stead and Malan with the former, as it turned out, predicted to cross the line by a neck."
"Reportedly, Malan was seen as "a little too early" for the job although the irony was Hesson was appointed when he was 37."
@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris They had option to go with Heinrich but decided he was "too inexperienced" or some poor justification NZR would trot-out, ironically he was the same age (37) as Hesson when he got the job in 2013.
Edit, found it:
"The job of coaching the New Zealand men's team had reportedly come down to a two-horse race between Stead and Malan with the former, as it turned out, predicted to cross the line by a neck."
"Reportedly, Malan was seen as "a little too early" for the job although the irony was Hesson was appointed when he was 37."
Yes Heinrich has the SA White ball job now.
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@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris They had option to go with Heinrich but decided he was "too inexperienced" or some poor justification NZR would trot-out, ironically he was the same age (37) as Hesson when he got the job in 2013.
Edit, found it:
"The job of coaching the New Zealand men's team had reportedly come down to a two-horse race between Stead and Malan with the former, as it turned out, predicted to cross the line by a neck."
"Reportedly, Malan was seen as "a little too early" for the job although the irony was Hesson was appointed when he was 37."
Yes Heinrich has the SA White ball job now.
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
Heinrich Malan
You're thinking of Rob Walter.
Heinrich is currently coaching Ireland & is doing an outstanding job.
They finished 2nd in group B - beating Scotland & West Indies and then upset eventual champions England.
He's clearly the best candidate to take over the Black Caps after the 2023 World Cup.
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@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
Heinrich Malan
You're thinking of Rob Walter.
Heinrich is currently coaching Ireland & is doing an outstanding job.
They finished 2nd in group B - beating Scotland & West Indies and then upset eventual champions England.
He's clearly the best candidate to take over the Black Caps after the 2023 World Cup.
@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
Heinrich Malan
You're thinking of Rob Walter.
Heinrich is currently coaching Ireland & is doing an outstanding job.
They finished 2nd in group B - beating Scotland & West Indies and then upset eventual champions England.
He's the clearly the best candidate to take over the Black Caps after the 2023 World Cup.
Yeah I was too
