Super Rugby 2024
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@friedrugby I think you are generalising too much and you can't prove it either. There are plenty of provinces with decent crowds, particularly the provinces not based in the SR main centres. And those that are based in SR main centres may just be playing in venues that are too big (and expensive) for NPC.
And no, I can't prove it, but am going by who I know and talk to (and that's quite a few), people in the provinces without a SR base are far more supportive of their NPC team than you think. And they'd hate to lose NPC, because that's where they see their team that really represents them with a majority of local players playing for the team. SR teams simply don't offer that level of tribal affiliation in those provinces. In their NPC team, they see the players that went to their school or play for their club. Players they may know personally, or their relatives. That's important for a lot of people.
Also, as has been explained multiple times already, you shouldn't just look at crowd numbers. It's a bad yard stick for a competitions success. You should include viewer numbers, which unfortunately aren't made public.
@Stargazer said in Super Rugby 2024:
@friedrugby I think you are generalising too much and you can't prove it either. There are plenty of provinces with decent crowds, particularly the provinces not based in the SR main centres. And those that are based in SR main centres may just be playing in venues that are too big (and expensive) for NPC.
And no, I can't prove it, but am going by who I know and talk to (and that's quite a few), people in the provinces without a SR base are far more supportive of their NPC team than you think. And they'd hate to lose NPC, because that's where they see their team that really represents them with a majority of local players playing for the team. SR teams simply don't offer that level of tribal affiliation in those provinces. In their NPC team, they see the players that went to their school or play for their club. Players they may know personally, or their relatives. That's important for a lot of people.
Also, as has been explained multiple times already, you shouldn't just look at crowd numbers. It's a bad yard stick for a competitions success. You should include viewer numbers, which unfortunately aren't made public.
I don't think anything you have said there is not true. And in Rugby's current model you wouldn't get rid of the NPC, because that would leave way too long a gap, and way too small amount of rugby. If the Aussies did bugger off, or they did expand Super Rugby, it would be interesting to see what they would do.
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can we all just accept that every union might be slightly different, like i said otago was 1 day away from liquidation in 2012 based on nearly 50% drop in revenue over 2 years...so some of us have very real memories of almost losing things...that doesn't mean hawkes bay is in the same boat....BUT, if teams do start to disappear the the more stable teams wont have as many teams to play....and so there is possibly a domino effect
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can we all just accept that every union might be slightly different, like i said otago was 1 day away from liquidation in 2012 based on nearly 50% drop in revenue over 2 years...so some of us have very real memories of almost losing things...that doesn't mean hawkes bay is in the same boat....BUT, if teams do start to disappear the the more stable teams wont have as many teams to play....and so there is possibly a domino effect
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can we all just accept that every union might be slightly different, like i said otago was 1 day away from liquidation in 2012 based on nearly 50% drop in revenue over 2 years...so some of us have very real memories of almost losing things...that doesn't mean hawkes bay is in the same boat....BUT, if teams do start to disappear the the more stable teams wont have as many teams to play....and so there is possibly a domino effect
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Clayton McMillan doesn't like it because any kid having the option to live and play code in Sydney or Hamilton is probably not gonna choose the Waikato.
hmmmm, Coogeee or Ham East? hmmmm, let me just weigh that up (packs bags)
@mariner4life said in Super Rugby 2024:
Clayton McMillan doesn't like it because any kid having the option to live and play code in Sydney or Hamilton is probably not gonna choose the Waikato.
hmmmm, Coogeee or Ham East? hmmmm, let me just weigh that up (packs bags)
Yep but a draft stop the kid having an option doesn't it??
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@friedrugby said in Super Rugby 2024:
Other than American sports which draft out of the College system, the only other sport which uses a draft is cricket, but that is a very different model.
AFL has a very successful draft out of teams development systems
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@friedrugby said in Super Rugby 2024:
Other than American sports which draft out of the College system, the only other sport which uses a draft is cricket, but that is a very different model.
AFL has a very successful draft out of teams development systems
Yep but the draft is only in one country, and they have no options, AFL has no competition! Example ; a kid from Brisbane could get drafted to Highlanders, Drua etc etc, and instead of wanting to go and live ib Dunedin ro Suvea he than can say F*** this, I going to Japan, Frnace etc ot just swap to league. Why NRL don't probably try it, and AFL kid has no options if he wants to play professional sport.
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@Kiwiwomble Realistically with the Silverlake Deal there is no real threat of it falling over.
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@Dan54 ....but isn't that what it is now? people already move between teams, a draft would just make it more clear to everyone. from memory in the AFL they still have to put themselves up for the draft...its still a choice, and you can have preferences on where to go they dont just get bought and sold and have to go places they dont want too, other people take up training contracts to stay local and try and earn a spot with their local team, like now we have people that take WTG contracts rather than trying their luck elsewhere
it really is just for people that want to play in the comp, to make a name for themselves and are happy to move
its also something the AFL uses to keep people interest in the offseason, build some hype, teams swap and trade picks so they can try and secure certain people
in saying that, i really was just point out that there are other sports that do it
@Tim yeah, if the unions arent trying to be sustainable businesses and grow their own income and rely on this "free money".....the long term future dont look good
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Super Rugby did used to have a kind of a draft system. Franchises could protect a certain number of players, then the rest were up for grabs. I cannot remember if it was voluntary on the part of the players though - did they have the option to leave for a season and the option to refuse, or did they have to go to the Franchise that wanted them?
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Super Rugby did used to have a kind of a draft system. Franchises could protect a certain number of players, then the rest were up for grabs. I cannot remember if it was voluntary on the part of the players though - did they have the option to leave for a season and the option to refuse, or did they have to go to the Franchise that wanted them?
@Tim pretty sure they had a choice, if they'd rather stay home and get a day job and play some club rugby they could
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@Kiwiwomble If there were fewer teams, they could play all teams in the competition instead of 10 out of 13 (that's the current number). But it would be a great loss to the provinces that drop out.
@Stargazer said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Kiwiwomble If there were fewer teams, they could play all teams in the competition instead of 10 out of 13 (that's the current number). But it would be a great loss to the provinces that drop out.
Manawatu, Bay of Plenty, Ta$man? :face_with_tears_of_joy:
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Good place to leave this I suppose:
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/super-rugby-draft-concept-receives-more-support-from-key-personnel/
Nichol told Stuff that he was “100%” open to it and had already been involved in talks about the concept with McLennan.
“Something I think that can be really attractive is a prospect of a draft which is around New Zealand talent, Australian talent and Pacific talent.
“New Zealand, Australia, and the Pacific now through Moana Pasifika, we’re joined at the hip to retain professional rugby in this part of the world.
“I don’t think people really understand that. We’re competing in the global marketplace, which is becoming incredibly aggressive with private equity interests becoming very influential in the northern hemisphere.
“We’ve got to be innovative. We’ve got to say, ‘How can we all work together to not just retain but actually attract talent back to this part of the world?’
@Stargazer said in Super Rugby 2024:
@kiwi_expat That article is just regurgitating an earlier Stuff article (already posted in another thread) and adds literally one paragraph, in which Phil Waugh says he wants to discuss a draft with Robinson. No surprise, as a draft favours Australia much more than New Zealand. You're posting this stuff over and over again, like you're pushing an agenda.
Mark Robinson interview on 3 tonight at 7.30, he wants open eligibility across SR.
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can we all just accept that every union might be slightly different, like i said otago was 1 day away from liquidation in 2012 based on nearly 50% drop in revenue over 2 years...so some of us have very real memories of almost losing things...that doesn't mean hawkes bay is in the same boat....BUT, if teams do start to disappear the the more stable teams wont have as many teams to play....and so there is possibly a domino effect
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
can we all just accept that every union might be slightly different, like i said otago was 1 day away from liquidation in 2012 based on nearly 50% drop in revenue over 2 years...so some of us have very real memories of almost losing things...that doesn't mean hawkes bay is in the same boat....BUT, if teams do start to disappear the the more stable teams wont have as many teams to play....and so there is possibly a domino effect
I think the majority of the NPC teams have learnt to live within their means now and despite what fried says they generally at least break even, including the old big 5.
Regardless of a preference for the NPC or not if it goes we lose a crucial part of our development structure in NZ rugby.
When (for example) Fakatava first came into NPC rugby he was playing with a number of Super players and against a number of Super players giving him experience before playing Super rugby. Not every player is a Roks. The NPC is a stepping stone for NZ players.
On the draft, I don't mind if there's an after initial selection draft, like the old Super @Tim mentioned where the top 26 are selected and then others go into a draft - although it did lead to anomalies where the halfback Mark Robinson didn't get a contract when clearly inferior players did. And allowing players from NZ in Oz teams would probably mean that a few players would not need to go to MLR as an Oz team would pick them up.
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Clayton McMillan doesn't like it because any kid having the option to live and play code in Sydney or Hamilton is probably not gonna choose the Waikato.
hmmmm, Coogeee or Ham East? hmmmm, let me just weigh that up (packs bags)
@mariner4life said in Super Rugby 2024:
Clayton McMillan doesn't like it because any kid having the option to live and play code in Sydney or Hamilton is probably not gonna choose the Waikato.
hmmmm, Coogeee or Ham East? hmmmm, let me just weigh that up (packs bags)
You've got to pretend that the Tahs aren't rubbish for this scenario. Young Ratima is going to weigh up playing decent rugby as well as the plastic blonde chicks at the Coogee Bay Hotel.
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No way, it is not like the other franchises don't already have at least five Kiwis per team and a number of Kiwi coaches. As it is the Aussie teams are getting a lot of their overseas talent back for 2024. I am not particularly fond of this Super Rugby arrangement with Oz as it is, it is only allowing them to improve. I would much prefer South Africa involved as well as Japan and Argentina.
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@Dan54 ....but isn't that what it is now? people already move between teams, a draft would just make it more clear to everyone. from memory in the AFL they still have to put themselves up for the draft...its still a choice, and you can have preferences on where to go they dont just get bought and sold and have to go places they dont want too, other people take up training contracts to stay local and try and earn a spot with their local team, like now we have people that take WTG contracts rather than trying their luck elsewhere
it really is just for people that want to play in the comp, to make a name for themselves and are happy to move
its also something the AFL uses to keep people interest in the offseason, build some hype, teams swap and trade picks so they can try and secure certain people
in saying that, i really was just point out that there are other sports that do it
@Tim yeah, if the unions arent trying to be sustainable businesses and grow their own income and rely on this "free money".....the long term future dont look good
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Super Rugby did used to have a kind of a draft system. Franchises could protect a certain number of players, then the rest were up for grabs. I cannot remember if it was voluntary on the part of the players though - did they have the option to leave for a season and the option to refuse, or did they have to go to the Franchise that wanted them?
@Tim said in Super Rugby 2024:
Super Rugby did used to have a kind of a draft system. Franchises could protect a certain number of players, then the rest were up for grabs. I cannot remember if it was voluntary on the part of the players though - did they have the option to leave for a season and the option to refuse, or did they have to go to the Franchise that wanted them?
As I recall the franchises all got together with the list of the players not locked in and worked it out based partly on approaches and talks with those players. You wouldn't want a player that didn't want to be part of your team.
That's also why it died out as the off the books discussions became professional negotiations and pre-testing by the franchises that took a more pro approach t was a waste of time for the others.
Still, a similar concept could still work using divided salary caps. One for your locked squad, everyone else goes into a pool and, like a tipping comp, you then have x $ to spend on your squad.If Oz were to go another direction we could add 2-3 more teams, open the comp to overseas players and head down the track of NZR owning the league full stop.
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@Kiwiwomble I would wear a draft if players put themselves in it. But I not sure why that's different to now anyway, if any player is not in a squad he can approach any super club anyway?
@Dan54 said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Kiwiwomble I would wear a draft if players put themselves in it. But I not sure why that's different to now anyway, if any player is not in a squad he can approach any super club anyway?
thats actually what im saying, i dont think it would be hugely different....just more visual for the fans to follow, less unnamed rumour followed by an underwhelming post on social media about a new signing, let us all see who is putting their hand up for a challenge somewhere else
I know there are several on her that are all over the young guys coming through which is awesome but lots of us dont have the time or ability to follow them and so a bit of development in that space hyping those coming through and if they move where they might go and what strengths they might bring that Team A wants but Team B doesnt would be really interesting
