2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia
-
Just finished Ian Foster's book (@His-Bobness recommendation) and he makes some interesting comments on refereeing consistency.
Was told by a referee it was felt the AB's had got off lightly after an AB game had been reviewed by a panel and should have received 4 yellow cards. Lo and behold in the next Test or two the ABs had more decisions going against them - inc. 2 YCs - than was normal.
He's not one to moan, unlike some, and isn't in his book - but makes a valid point about Refs being influenced by peer pressure and it causing serious problems for players and coaches. Subtext was refereeing has become a bit of a mess and the whole structure needs to be looked at for the good of the game.
I'd like to say that surprised me but the reality is that referees are now subject to an incredible level of scrutiny with slo-mo footage from God knows how many different camera angles and this backed up by aggressive comments and accusations from some of the coaching teams. It is bound to happen that they react to all this. What the answer is I don't know but I'm guessing that some of those wonderful marketing guys will be telling all the suits that the TMO interference etc all adds to the drama and leads to more bums on seats. In which case we can expect more rather than less.
-
I'd like to say that surprised me but the reality is that referees are now subject to an incredible level of scrutiny with slo-mo footage from God knows how many different camera angles and this backed up by aggressive comments and accusations from some of the coaching teams. It is bound to happen that they react to all this. What the answer is I don't know but I'm guessing that some of those wonderful marketing guys will be telling all the suits that the TMO interference etc all adds to the drama and leads to more bums on seats. In which case we can expect more rather than less.
Yep. It isn't the Refs that are the problem, it's the system that they work under.
The point being made is Refs are human and are being influenced by how refs as a group manage games and how they are assessed. Foster's thinks this maybe inadvertently leads to a group-think approach to how certain teams are judged which exacerbates problems and makes their job so much harder.
-
This is spot on IMHO.
https://twitter.com/mana_rugby/status/1951896668946727261?s=46
-
A series that ended 2-1. A series that turned, in the end, on one play and one missed tackle. Sell out crowds of nearly 250,000 people at iconic sporting venues. Millions of dollars made for the Aussie economy. Tens of thousands of British and Irish tourists going home after a trip of a life time. Much debate about referees and TMOs. Thousands of yarns told over jugs of beer. Friendships forged between good rugby folk.
Let's stop right now all talk of the British and Irish Lions not touring Australia again.
Roll on 2037!
-
@sparky I think the concept is about as bulletproof as a money spinner gets for lots of reasons. But at the same time the recent tours have been so incredibly dour with very little memorable ‘rugby’.
@game_film said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@sparky I think the concept is about as bulletproof as a money spinner gets for lots of reasons. But at the same time the recent tours have been so incredibly dour with very little memorable ‘rugby’.
It’s not a celebration of rugby flair
It’s a chance at rugby immortality
And for the hosts possibly their only chance
-
This is spot on IMHO.
https://twitter.com/mana_rugby/status/1951896668946727261?s=46
@sparky said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
This is spot on IMHO.
https://twitter.com/mana_rugby/status/1951896668946727261?s=46
That is the danger of a system like Ireland - and Australia actually.
Limited resources and pathways mean you can get a good crop of players together for a limited time, in the right circumstances.
You don't want anything but your best performance, so you keep that top 15-20 on the park as much as you can.
The downside is that you can't bring through new talent because the incumbents are doing the job, providing they stay uninjured.
They all leave and you're pooched.
-
@nzzp said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@Victor-Meldrew said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
too much gamesmanship and shit-stirring has developed with Lions tours causing a sour taste
This.
2017 was the start of my disconnection from rugby - there was no 'phew, Lions got away with one at the end' from their fans, it was 'Kieran was offside' 'ref was 100% right' etc. You saw it in this series with the cleanout at the end of the second test. Blaming the Aussie for not coming through the gate, banging on about simulation - it's all distraction from a critical call. You can argue about the ruling, but it's the shithousery around it that left a bad taste in my mouth. Holier than thou, with a plank in the eye.
Media, Woodward, Alastair Campbell, Gats, Farrell all have plenty to answer for, but the end result is a bit shit.
I don't know what it was like in NZ at the time of "that" call but here in the UK it was mainly either "phew, we got away with that one" or just some embarrassed grins. What I do recall though is much frothing at the mouth from NZ, from fans, from pundits, from media and even from some of the guys on here. I know that if the boot had been on the other foot I'd have been spewing too, so I get that, but all the talk of conspiracies, deals and fixes was something to behold.
Re the bolded bit, I'm right with you here, such whining and so on should have no place in the game, but do not pretend that it is one sided. Rassie is the past master here (maybe he has a poster of Woodward in his bedroom)? Schmidt and the Aussie media and pundits have had an ongoing whinge about the Morgan clear out. And we still hear from Kiwis all over the place about that decision in the deciding test in 2017 and of course barnes in teh French game. And don't forget, Deans did score!
We've all got stuff like this going on in our camps.
@Catogrande said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@nzzp said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@Victor-Meldrew said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
too much gamesmanship and shit-stirring has developed with Lions tours causing a sour taste
This.
2017 was the start of my disconnection from rugby - there was no 'phew, Lions got away with one at the end' from their fans, it was 'Kieran was offside' 'ref was 100% right' etc. You saw it in this series with the cleanout at the end of the second test. Blaming the Aussie for not coming through the gate, banging on about simulation - it's all distraction from a critical call. You can argue about the ruling, but it's the shithousery around it that left a bad taste in my mouth. Holier than thou, with a plank in the eye.
Media, Woodward, Alastair Campbell, Gats, Farrell all have plenty to answer for, but the end result is a bit shit.
Re the bolded bit, I'm right with you here, such whining and so on should have no place in the game, but do not pretend that it is one sided. Rassie is the past master here (maybe he has a poster of Woodward in his bedroom)? Schmidt and the Aussie media and pundits have had an ongoing whinge about the Morgan clear out. And we still hear from Kiwis all over the place about that decision in the deciding test in 2017 and of course barnes in teh French game. And don't forget, Deans did score!
We've all got stuff like this going on in our camps.
I think once you step away from certain social media it gets a lot better. Really the Aussie media I consume moved on from the Morgan thing pretty quickly, there was a bit of ongoing coverage of the Tizzano injury but nothing I'd call hysterical.
I'm not disputing your overall point but the gnashing of teeth seems to be a relative minority of internet voices. Spending too much time in that echo chamber just fries your brain and saps your love of the game overall. Away from it my mates discussion has been a bit on the Morgan thing but more on how the players have been going, we love Skelton, hate Itoje etc. etc. etc.
And I'd imagine that goes for everywhere, every sport, every fan base.
Except Springbok fans. They are actually all pricks. Every last one of them.
-
@sparky said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
This is spot on IMHO.
https://twitter.com/mana_rugby/status/1951896668946727261?s=46
That is the danger of a system like Ireland - and Australia actually.
Limited resources and pathways mean you can get a good crop of players together for a limited time, in the right circumstances.
You don't want anything but your best performance, so you keep that top 15-20 on the park as much as you can.
The downside is that you can't bring through new talent because the incumbents are doing the job, providing they stay uninjured.
They all leave and you're pooched.
@NTA said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@sparky said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
This is spot on IMHO.
https://twitter.com/mana_rugby/status/1951896668946727261?s=46
That is the danger of a system like Ireland - and Australia actually.
Limited resources and pathways mean you can get a good crop of players together for a limited time, in the right circumstances.
You don't want anything but your best performance, so you keep that top 15-20 on the park as much as you can.
The downside is that you can't bring through new talent because the incumbents are doing the job, providing they stay uninjured.
They all leave and you're pooched.
Ireland has some great players coming through the URC
Time for Farrell to shuffle the deck
-
@NTA said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@sparky said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
This is spot on IMHO.
https://twitter.com/mana_rugby/status/1951896668946727261?s=46
That is the danger of a system like Ireland - and Australia actually.
Limited resources and pathways mean you can get a good crop of players together for a limited time, in the right circumstances.
You don't want anything but your best performance, so you keep that top 15-20 on the park as much as you can.
The downside is that you can't bring through new talent because the incumbents are doing the job, providing they stay uninjured.
They all leave and you're pooched.
Ireland has some great players coming through the URC
Time for Farrell to shuffle the deck
@MiketheSnow said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@NTA said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@sparky said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
This is spot on IMHO.
https://twitter.com/mana_rugby/status/1951896668946727261?s=46
That is the danger of a system like Ireland - and Australia actually.
Limited resources and pathways mean you can get a good crop of players together for a limited time, in the right circumstances.
You don't want anything but your best performance, so you keep that top 15-20 on the park as much as you can.
The downside is that you can't bring through new talent because the incumbents are doing the job, providing they stay uninjured.
They all leave and you're pooched.
Ireland has some great players coming through the URC
Time for Farrell to shuffle the deck
Hardest thing for any coach is dumping players and retooling before results dip. We failed to do it in 1991 just to mention one era
-
@MiketheSnow said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@NTA said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@sparky said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
This is spot on IMHO.
https://twitter.com/mana_rugby/status/1951896668946727261?s=46
That is the danger of a system like Ireland - and Australia actually.
Limited resources and pathways mean you can get a good crop of players together for a limited time, in the right circumstances.
You don't want anything but your best performance, so you keep that top 15-20 on the park as much as you can.
The downside is that you can't bring through new talent because the incumbents are doing the job, providing they stay uninjured.
They all leave and you're pooched.
Ireland has some great players coming through the URC
Time for Farrell to shuffle the deck
Hardest thing for any coach is dumping players and retooling before results dip. We failed to do it in 1991 just to mention one era
@canefan said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@MiketheSnow said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@NTA said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@sparky said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
This is spot on IMHO.
https://twitter.com/mana_rugby/status/1951896668946727261?s=46
That is the danger of a system like Ireland - and Australia actually.
Limited resources and pathways mean you can get a good crop of players together for a limited time, in the right circumstances.
You don't want anything but your best performance, so you keep that top 15-20 on the park as much as you can.
The downside is that you can't bring through new talent because the incumbents are doing the job, providing they stay uninjured.
They all leave and you're pooched.
Ireland has some great players coming through the URC
Time for Farrell to shuffle the deck
Hardest thing for any coach is dumping players and retooling before results dip. We failed to do it in 1991 just to mention one era
I bet Sir Fred Allen wouldn't have suffered that nonsense. Time for coaches to start empowering themselves again.
-
@canefan said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@MiketheSnow said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@NTA said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@sparky said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
This is spot on IMHO.
https://twitter.com/mana_rugby/status/1951896668946727261?s=46
That is the danger of a system like Ireland - and Australia actually.
Limited resources and pathways mean you can get a good crop of players together for a limited time, in the right circumstances.
You don't want anything but your best performance, so you keep that top 15-20 on the park as much as you can.
The downside is that you can't bring through new talent because the incumbents are doing the job, providing they stay uninjured.
They all leave and you're pooched.
Ireland has some great players coming through the URC
Time for Farrell to shuffle the deck
Hardest thing for any coach is dumping players and retooling before results dip. We failed to do it in 1991 just to mention one era
I bet Sir Fred Allen wouldn't have suffered that nonsense. Time for coaches to start empowering themselves again.
@antipodean said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@canefan said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@MiketheSnow said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@NTA said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@sparky said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
This is spot on IMHO.
https://twitter.com/mana_rugby/status/1951896668946727261?s=46
That is the danger of a system like Ireland - and Australia actually.
Limited resources and pathways mean you can get a good crop of players together for a limited time, in the right circumstances.
You don't want anything but your best performance, so you keep that top 15-20 on the park as much as you can.
The downside is that you can't bring through new talent because the incumbents are doing the job, providing they stay uninjured.
They all leave and you're pooched.
Ireland has some great players coming through the URC
Time for Farrell to shuffle the deck
Hardest thing for any coach is dumping players and retooling before results dip. We failed to do it in 1991 just to mention one era
I bet Sir Fred Allen wouldn't have suffered that nonsense. Time for coaches to start empowering themselves again.
It's natural for these coaches to get too close to their players. Shag stayed too long and couldn't bring himself to drop players. Funny thing is I thought Razor would be a breath of fresh air, but he's been guilty of leaning on older players and favourites just like Fozzie did
-
-
@canefan said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@MiketheSnow said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@NTA said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@sparky said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
This is spot on IMHO.
https://twitter.com/mana_rugby/status/1951896668946727261?s=46
That is the danger of a system like Ireland - and Australia actually.
Limited resources and pathways mean you can get a good crop of players together for a limited time, in the right circumstances.
You don't want anything but your best performance, so you keep that top 15-20 on the park as much as you can.
The downside is that you can't bring through new talent because the incumbents are doing the job, providing they stay uninjured.
They all leave and you're pooched.
Ireland has some great players coming through the URC
Time for Farrell to shuffle the deck
Hardest thing for any coach is dumping players and retooling before results dip. We failed to do it in 1991 just to mention one era
I bet Sir Fred Allen wouldn't have suffered that nonsense. Time for coaches to start empowering themselves again.
-
Group think can and does work the opposite way too though
You only have to look at RWC matches where underdogs are refereed differently if the score is close
Minnow upsetting a giant
Minnow must be cheating@MiketheSnow said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
Group think can and does work the opposite way too though
You only have to look at RWC matches where underdogs are refereed differently if the score is close
Minnow upsetting a giant
Minnow must be cheatingNot noticeable in the second Japan v Wales game. I thought Wales won fair and square and were reffed fairly.
Sorry. Not sorry.
-
Unfortunately the Needle was retooled himself when it was totally unnecessary.
Dont think he lost a test as coach.
Coached a great brand of rugby too!@mohikamo said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
Unfortunately the Needle was retooled himself when it was totally unnecessary.
Dont think he lost a test as coach.
Coached a great brand of rugby too!Needle coached rugby that was played in early 60s, which if any AB team played now we would want him sacked. But the game was so different those days, and in reality there wasn't a real lot of running etc. But it was what it was , rugby of the era, I loved it, but not sure it would get many eyeballs today.
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
too much gamesmanship and shit-stirring has developed with Lions tours causing a sour taste
This.
2017 was the start of my disconnection from rugby - there was no 'phew, Lions got away with one at the end' from their fans, it was 'Kieran was offside' 'ref was 100% right' etc. You saw it in this series with the cleanout at the end of the second test. Blaming the Aussie for not coming through the gate, banging on about simulation - it's all distraction from a critical call. You can argue about the ruling, but it's the shithousery around it that left a bad taste in my mouth. Holier than thou, with a plank in the eye.
Media, Woodward, Alastair Campbell, Gats, Farrell all have plenty to answer for, but the end result is a bit shit.
@nzzp said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@Victor-Meldrew said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
too much gamesmanship and shit-stirring has developed with Lions tours causing a sour taste
This.
2017 was the start of my disconnection from rugby - there was no 'phew, Lions got away with one at the end' from their fans, it was 'Kieran was offside' 'ref was 100% right' etc. You saw it in this series with the cleanout at the end of the second test. Blaming the Aussie for not coming through the gate, banging on about simulation - it's all distraction from a critical call. You can argue about the ruling, but it's the shithousery around it that left a bad taste in my mouth. Holier than thou, with a plank in the eye.
Media, Woodward, Alastair Campbell, Gats, Farrell all have plenty to answer for, but the end result is a bit shit.
Yeah, was the beginning of the "end" we now find ourselves in for me.
The play acting from fans has extended to coaches and now the players.
I dont mind people disagreeing with a call, but dont do it in a disingenuous fashion.
Jamie Roberts was on Stan sports saying Tizzano was contacted on his upper back, when the green of his collar was visible above Morgans head....It could only be neck.
It's that sort of skullduggery that drives me mad. Its infuriating.
-
@nzzp said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@Victor-Meldrew said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
too much gamesmanship and shit-stirring has developed with Lions tours causing a sour taste
This.
2017 was the start of my disconnection from rugby - there was no 'phew, Lions got away with one at the end' from their fans, it was 'Kieran was offside' 'ref was 100% right' etc. You saw it in this series with the cleanout at the end of the second test. Blaming the Aussie for not coming through the gate, banging on about simulation - it's all distraction from a critical call. You can argue about the ruling, but it's the shithousery around it that left a bad taste in my mouth. Holier than thou, with a plank in the eye.
Media, Woodward, Alastair Campbell, Gats, Farrell all have plenty to answer for, but the end result is a bit shit.
Yeah, was the beginning of the "end" we now find ourselves in for me.
The play acting from fans has extended to coaches and now the players.
I dont mind people disagreeing with a call, but dont do it in a disingenuous fashion.
Jamie Roberts was on Stan sports saying Tizzano was contacted on his upper back, when the green of his collar was visible above Morgans head....It could only be neck.
It's that sort of skullduggery that drives me mad. Its infuriating.
@Jet anyone who think it's the Lions fans only etc are being very selective. The biggest frustration is probably what we are on. Every Joe blog who watches about 20 minutes of rugby a year, can watch parts of games and decide what they want about results, and scream about it on the internet. Backed up by tv stations and comments people who love controversy to get people watching or listening. Pointing out only Lions supporters when we saw the absolute whinge fest we had from us kiwis after 2007 WC , or any other supporters means perhaps you are missing a lot. You remember the French ref stopping Wallabies for taking to long to kick ball out in test a couple of years back, but in general were pretty quiet with Tupaea's knee getting wrecked in same test. Mate it's almost all sports, and teams that I have seen.
-
@Jet anyone who think it's the Lions fans only etc are being very selective. The biggest frustration is probably what we are on. Every Joe blog who watches about 20 minutes of rugby a year, can watch parts of games and decide what they want about results, and scream about it on the internet. Backed up by tv stations and comments people who love controversy to get people watching or listening. Pointing out only Lions supporters when we saw the absolute whinge fest we had from us kiwis after 2007 WC , or any other supporters means perhaps you are missing a lot. You remember the French ref stopping Wallabies for taking to long to kick ball out in test a couple of years back, but in general were pretty quiet with Tupaea's knee getting wrecked in same test. Mate it's almost all sports, and teams that I have seen.
Spot on. We all have them and it and which echo chamber you choose to inhabit. will inform your view about other fans etc. Which is the thing that keeps me coming back to this place -
-
We've got fluffybunnies from all over the world on here and
-
For every OTT, one eyed, jingoistic, we have 10 fairly level headed blokes and
-
We get a level of dialogue that sometimes actually changes a person point of view or at least softens it somewhat.
Although that is probably us all just getting older.
-
-
@Jet anyone who think it's the Lions fans only etc are being very selective. The biggest frustration is probably what we are on. Every Joe blog who watches about 20 minutes of rugby a year, can watch parts of games and decide what they want about results, and scream about it on the internet. Backed up by tv stations and comments people who love controversy to get people watching or listening. Pointing out only Lions supporters when we saw the absolute whinge fest we had from us kiwis after 2007 WC , or any other supporters means perhaps you are missing a lot. You remember the French ref stopping Wallabies for taking to long to kick ball out in test a couple of years back, but in general were pretty quiet with Tupaea's knee getting wrecked in same test. Mate it's almost all sports, and teams that I have seen.
@Dan54 said in 2025 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia:
@Jet anyone who think it's the Lions fans only etc are being very selective. The biggest frustration is probably what we are on. Every Joe blog who watches about 20 minutes of rugby a year, can watch parts of games and decide what they want about results, and scream about it on the internet. Backed up by tv stations and comments people who love controversy to get people watching or listening. Pointing out only Lions supporters when we saw the absolute whinge fest we had from us kiwis after 2007 WC , or any other supporters means perhaps you are missing a lot. You remember the French ref stopping Wallabies for taking to long to kick ball out in test a couple of years back, but in general were pretty quiet with Tupaea's knee getting wrecked in same test. Mate it's almost all sports, and teams that I have seen.
I wasn't referring to Lions fans only.
I mean the sport and audiences in general.
Things being sacrosanct until they arent is what gets me......and then vested interests (fans,pundits) hand waving it away.
SBW getting red against the Lions..fair.....Mako Vunipola smashing a prone Beauden Barrett in the face...yellow only.
I watched our captain get sent off in a World Cup final for a static tackle that didnt invalid the recipient.
Kolisi gets yellow for a tackle on Savea thats at least equal, if not worse in the same game.I watched Dan Sheehan exocet himself into a ruck elbow first connecting with Lynaghs head.
Lynagh fails HIA.TMO nowhere to be seen.
Taavao gets red for knocking himself out tackling Ringrose.
Porter gets yellow for breaking Retallicks orbital bone.I could go on and on.
I feel like im being gaslit by refs, TMO's, pundits, other teams fans and the judiciary.
Winks and nods once your team gets the rub. Obfuscate and never give an inch.
I think we are getting close to Rugby having no sporting integrity. A roulette wheel week to week.
The man in the middle is the most important person on the field now....they used to be faceless and nameless drones.Now they write books.
