Does Rugby have a Superstar?
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@Stargazer said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
Would Jonah still have been considered a rugby superstar if he had been able to play longer and we would have seen his decline (which inevitably comes, especially with wingers)?
If Julian Savea had stopped, for whatever reason, at the top of his career. Or Beaudy. Would we have seen them as rugby superstars?
To me, Dan Carter is a real rugby superstar, even more so than Jonah, because he went to great heights, and hardly fell before he retired.
Not sure about present players.
Jonah was a superstar because people who didn't know Rugby knew who he was. He's pretty unique in that regard.
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@Stargazer said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
@Kirwan I guess it depends on the definition of superstar ...
"an extremely famous and successful performer or sports player."
I think you are confusing it with best rugby player, think Kim Kardasian - fame is unrelated to actual talent and achievements in many cases.
In Jonah's case, he had good timing as the game had just gone professional and he scored super unusual trys just as the game was gaining popularity.
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And if so, who is it?
This is a philosophical discussion about rugby more than anything. More astoundingly it's sparked by a Mark Reason article.
The gist if you insist on not giving clicks to either Stuff or Reason is, rugby needs someone to capture the public, in the same sort of way that randoms can get excited by watching Messi or Mbappe. He anoints Will Jordan.
Pretty much the entire rugby world would be comfortable calling Jonah rugby's first global superstar. My question is, was he also the last, and if so, why is that?
Rugby guys have the players they love to watch. But is there really anybody that would make a casual turn the TV on to watch a guy go around at the RWC? I loke loose forwards, most people probably have no fucking idea what they are doing half the time.
Is modern elite rugby fundamentally geared against individual stardom? Look ahead to a RWC, are the chances of any main contender built around flair players? or game plans and workhorses?
Do we as fans focus far too much on errors and turnovers to ever truly embrace the guy who is having a crack? Case in point, if Jonah started now, how much of social media would be talking about his high ball work, or his defense, or his workrate? In NZ we have guys like Ioane and Jordan who are just freakish individual talents, and still they have untold critics lining up to take shots at them for all sorts of shit. Do we embrace their pace and flair and ability to tear a side up? Fuck no. Ioane is a hungus who doesn't play like Conrad Smith (great player, but not because of his flair). I am as bad as any. Beauden Barrett is a freaky footballer and i give him heaps of shit. I feel like rugby fans, especially kiwis, are way more Tim Duncan fans than Alan Iverson fans.
what do we reckon
@mariner4life said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
Is modern elite rugby fundamentally geared against individual stardom? Look ahead to a RWC, are the chances of any main contender built around flair players? or game plans and workhorses?
It's similar in the NHL - the playoffs are geared towards grinding and workhorses and so the best player in the world (Conor McDavid) and the best regular season team (this year the Boston Bruins) couldn't sniff the Stanley Cup Final.
Having said that - this World Cup does feel like it has the ability to put some players on a serious pedestal if they have a big tournament - Will Jordan, Dupont, the gun new Bok 10 Lubbok etc
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Rugby creates many fewer global stars than football. Mainly because the focus in Rugby is so much on the team and the individual’s role within it.
Jonah Lomu was a global Rugby star. He still has a waxwork in London Madame Tussaud’s.
Dan Carter was probably nearest to that in terms of impact since. He won the BBC overseas sports personality of the year in 1995.
I suspect Jonny Wilkinson and Brian O’Driscoll would be known to many people who don’t follow Rugby outside their own countries
Francois Pineaar was played in a Hollywood film by Matt Damon.
Mike Tindall is quite well known because he is married to a member of the British Royal Family.
Gavin Henson used to appear in lots of the women’s magazines and tabloids when he dated Charlotte Church.
Sonny Bill Williams and James Haskell have a big social media presence.
Beauden Barrett and Antoine Dupont would probably be the two most well known current players, but have nothing like the profile of football stars.
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I was going to throw SBW's name in the mix. For us aficionados, we're aware of his limitations and can easily discredit some of the accolades he's accumulated by being in the right teams at the right time. But for the casual fan or even non-rugby fan he had a wider appeal.
The argument of style over substance in an interesting one. Messi and Verstappen don't have celeb quality but their pure GOATness make them superstars. Rugby, as a sport, isn't big enough globally for a GOAT (like Dan Carter) to have universal cut through.
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There was a bit of talk around Siya Kolisi after the 2019 RWC become the poster boy for rugby. He had an incredible backstory, an easy way with the media and stood for impressive values. He was even signed to Jay-Z's agency. But his feats on the field weren't really highlight reel stuff.
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@Kirwan yep he even had a Big Mac named after him! And then had NFL teams chasing him because of the profile he had in the States, which is crazy for a rugby player. He's the only true global superstar rugby has ever produced.
@No-Quarter said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
@Kirwan yep he even had a Big Mac named after him!
As a measure of superstardom I'm not sure what can top this, brilliant benchmark.
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No one has come close to the impact that Jonah made on the game IMO. Even in an era that had no social media etc his highlight reels went viral, to the point where teams like the Dallas Cowboys were firing contract offers through.
Dan Carter is probably the next biggest star but his form was a bit up and down in his last years before he finished with a bang.
If Anton Du Pont wins the WC this year he’s probably the next global rugby star if he isn’t already.
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On the eve of a RWC, Habana called a fellow winger (an AB that wasn't Lomu) a superstar once, that probably didn't age well.
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Not necessary a superstar, but Sébastien Chabal built up his brand well and has clearly made a ton of money from advertising since he hung up his boots.
@sparky said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
Not necessary a superstar, but Sébastien Chabal built up his brand well and has clearly made a ton of money from advertising since he hung up his boots.
He should be in medical books for having the longest wingspan in the world too. Apparently he could scratch his ankles without bending over.
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No one has come close to the impact that Jonah made on the game IMO. Even in an era that had no social media etc his highlight reels went viral, to the point where teams like the Dallas Cowboys were firing contract offers through.
Dan Carter is probably the next biggest star but his form was a bit up and down in his last years before he finished with a bang.
If Anton Du Pont wins the WC this year he’s probably the next global rugby star if he isn’t already.
@Canes4life said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
Dan Carter is probably the next biggest star but his form was a bit up and down in his last years before he finished with a bang.
DC has stories in autobiography of him and his wife being invited by Elton John to his Oscars after-party and being introduced to lots of Hollywood types who had no idea who he was.
Similarly. Rory McIlroy saw him in the gym at Augusta and wanted a photo together.
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I think we can still have superstar, but even as @mariner4life said at start ,Jonah would get shit these days as well, he got enough in his day without internet. If I got a beer from every know all that used to say he was to slow to turn etc, and if he/they coached/played against him they would just kick behind him etc. I used to laugh and ask well why don't you think all these test coaches in the world don't tell their players to do that very thing?
I think same about most players, we really have very little idea watching on tv how good they are, but really most are bloody good players, but as said, if someone in there head decides they want someone else , will find any little mistake and remember it for ever and a day.
But not sure we have had a genuine superstar since Jonah, who was actually bigger than the game I think. -
Imho it comes down to the highlight reel. Rugby fans could fap endlessly at McGod's feats but casuals didn't get it. Even fewer would appreciate what a front rower does (although they're mostly fat unmarketable fůckers for the most part). Another would be a guy like Itoje. Has the look but line out steals and great work in rucks and mauls don't have mass appeal. So to stand out in rugby you need to either be a massive unit utterly laying waste to people ala Lomu or someone with a crazy skill set like Carter, Cullen or Caucau carving up. I've heard a heap of comments about BB from casuals. Actually I remember showing that 2015 final try to a bunch of Spaniards and they were amazed.
I guess for NZ the best candidate right now would be Jordan. 2 years ago I would have said Clarke.
But I can't see anyone coming close to Jonah in terms of global identity. The timing, look, size, feats etc. were insanely perfect.
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Imho it comes down to the highlight reel. Rugby fans could fap endlessly at McGod's feats but casuals didn't get it. Even fewer would appreciate what a front rower does (although they're mostly fat unmarketable fůckers for the most part). Another would be a guy like Itoje. Has the look but line out steals and great work in rucks and mauls don't have mass appeal. So to stand out in rugby you need to either be a massive unit utterly laying waste to people ala Lomu or someone with a crazy skill set like Carter, Cullen or Caucau carving up. I've heard a heap of comments about BB from casuals. Actually I remember showing that 2015 final try to a bunch of Spaniards and they were amazed.
I guess for NZ the best candidate right now would be Jordan. 2 years ago I would have said Clarke.
But I can't see anyone coming close to Jonah in terms of global identity. The timing, look, size, feats etc. were insanely perfect.
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
Caucau
reckon he was one player with the right management and guiding could have been huge, alas, for differing reasons, I dont think the world saw the best of either Lomu or Caucau.
I think most pundits who name thier best 15, usually have Lomu in the team (insert obligatory Saffas saying he never scored against them)...he may not have been even close to the best winger of his generation, but he was the biggest rugby player.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
Caucau
reckon he was one player with the right management and guiding could have been huge, alas, for differing reasons, I dont think the world saw the best of either Lomu or Caucau.
I think most pundits who name thier best 15, usually have Lomu in the team (insert obligatory Saffas saying he never scored against them)...he may not have been even close to the best winger of his generation, but he was the biggest rugby player.
@taniwharugby said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
Caucau
reckon he was one player with the right management and guiding could have been huge, alas, for differing reasons, I dont think the world saw the best of either Lomu or Caucau.
I think most pundits who name thier best 15, usually have Lomu in the team (insert obligatory Saffas saying he never scored against them)...he may not have been even close to the best winger of his generation, but he was the biggest rugby player.
I will always remember being in San Francisco in 90s , wearing an a NZ rugby jersey, and a man who was begging on side of road seeing the jersey, and looked at jersey and said 'ahhh NZ, Jonah Lomu"! What I meant about probably bigger than game, bit like Maradona etc , I don't know hardly any soccer players, and don't watch, but know of him etc.
Why even Richie or Dan C don't make the superstar rating, not really known ouside of game? -
One way to measure how big a star a player is, is their social media following. Going by Instagram only Dan Carter and SBW are 1mil. Kolisi and Beauden are the highest current players at 710k and 680k. Dwarfed by the numbers of the football superstars.
