NZR review
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@pakman said in NZR review:
@gt12 said in NZR review:
@Duluth said in NZR review:
@gt12 said in NZR review:
Cully said the quiet part out aloud:
We can't really have both a (professional) PU and Super rugby competition in such a small country. It's been coming since 1996.
Jamie Wall outlined the crux of the issue too, here:
The Pilkington Report's finding essentially recommended a loosening of provincial union (PU) grip on NZR governance. Proposal One, which is backed by the RPA, recommends that happening. Unsurprisingly, the PUs are not too keen on that and their Proposal Two comes down to them retaining their three automatic seats on the NZR board. So, it is pretty easy to see Proposal One as being for change and Proposal Two as being for maintaining the status quo.
It's predictable what will happen. The interesting part will be NZRPA's next step
I'm fascinated to see.
This has been coming.
The Pilkington report laid out that it sees the political games of the PUs fltering into the boardroom where other key stakeholders don't get representation (e.g., Super franchises, players), and basically says that the PUs are misusing funds (redirecting may the term) to focus on high performance rather than community rugby (like, only 21% of their spend vs 59% on high performance).
Edit: BTW, if you haven't read the selected comments from the surveys (e.g., page 130-132 of the appendices), have a look.
Being a long-term president of a struggling club was hard and intense... higher up administrators, who were all promise and no delivery
Too much power by Provincial Unions
NZR is widely criticised for being an old boys club who gives jobs to mates and ex-players
Too much focus on rugby credentials ahead of governance capability
PUs need to stop seeing themselves as 'owners' and start behaving as gardeners of community rugby, ensuring the best conditions to grow and thrive
Is anyone able to explain exactly how the PUs would control the Board with three of nine directors? Absent special conditions in the Constitution, with a decent Chair any well merited proposal will be voted through.
If there ARE such special conditions, the ACTUAL solution is to vote to remove such conditions.
It's a good question.
Based on the current board membership situation, it looks like the PUs are the power behind the throne for many candidates, as they can directly nominate 3 (must be seconded by another PU) and are required as nominators (and seconders) for those wishing to get elected (i.e., 3 further members). Those people must say that they will be 'independent' but they get there via support from the PUs and these people are elected by the affiliates (i.e., PUs).
So, it could be fair to make your argument. I guess the players have had enough of the PUs control, and things have got to the point now where the players want the PUs only on the stakeholder council.
@gt12 said in NZR review:
@pakman said in NZR review:
@gt12 said in NZR review:
@Duluth said in NZR review:
@gt12 said in NZR review:
Cully said the quiet part out aloud:
We can't really have both a (professional) PU and Super rugby competition in such a small country. It's been coming since 1996.
Jamie Wall outlined the crux of the issue too, here:
The Pilkington Report's finding essentially recommended a loosening of provincial union (PU) grip on NZR governance. Proposal One, which is backed by the RPA, recommends that happening. Unsurprisingly, the PUs are not too keen on that and their Proposal Two comes down to them retaining their three automatic seats on the NZR board. So, it is pretty easy to see Proposal One as being for change and Proposal Two as being for maintaining the status quo.
It's predictable what will happen. The interesting part will be NZRPA's next step
I'm fascinated to see.
This has been coming.
The Pilkington report laid out that it sees the political games of the PUs fltering into the boardroom where other key stakeholders don't get representation (e.g., Super franchises, players), and basically says that the PUs are misusing funds (redirecting may the term) to focus on high performance rather than community rugby (like, only 21% of their spend vs 59% on high performance).
Edit: BTW, if you haven't read the selected comments from the surveys (e.g., page 130-132 of the appendices), have a look.
Being a long-term president of a struggling club was hard and intense... higher up administrators, who were all promise and no delivery
Too much power by Provincial Unions
NZR is widely criticised for being an old boys club who gives jobs to mates and ex-players
Too much focus on rugby credentials ahead of governance capability
PUs need to stop seeing themselves as 'owners' and start behaving as gardeners of community rugby, ensuring the best conditions to grow and thrive
Is anyone able to explain exactly how the PUs would control the Board with three of nine directors? Absent special conditions in the Constitution, with a decent Chair any well merited proposal will be voted through.
If there ARE such special conditions, the ACTUAL solution is to vote to remove such conditions.
It's a good question.
Based on the current board membership situation, it looks like the PUs are the power behind the throne for many candidates, as they can directly nominate 3 (must be seconded by another PU) and are required as nominators (and seconders) for those wishing to get elected (i.e., 3 further members). Those people must say that they will be 'independent' but they get there via support from the PUs and these people are elected by the affiliates (i.e., PUs).
So, it could be fair to make your argument. I guess the players have had enough of the PUs control, and things have got to the point now where the players want the PUs only on the stakeholder council.
I see merit in PUs having embedded right to nominate three directors. However, in respect of all other appointments they ought not to have any special rights.
Three of nine is fine. Six of nine most certainly is not.
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@gt12 said in NZR review:
@Duluth said in NZR review:
@gt12 said in NZR review:
Cully said the quiet part out aloud:
We can't really have both a (professional) PU and Super rugby competition in such a small country. It's been coming since 1996.
Jamie Wall outlined the crux of the issue too, here:
The Pilkington Report's finding essentially recommended a loosening of provincial union (PU) grip on NZR governance. Proposal One, which is backed by the RPA, recommends that happening. Unsurprisingly, the PUs are not too keen on that and their Proposal Two comes down to them retaining their three automatic seats on the NZR board. So, it is pretty easy to see Proposal One as being for change and Proposal Two as being for maintaining the status quo.
It's predictable what will happen. The interesting part will be NZRPA's next step
I'm fascinated to see.
This has been coming.
The Pilkington report laid out that it sees the political games of the PUs fltering into the boardroom where other key stakeholders don't get representation (e.g., Super franchises, players), and basically says that the PUs are misusing funds (redirecting may the term) to focus on high performance rather than community rugby (like, only 21% of their spend vs 59% on high performance).
Edit: BTW, if you haven't read the selected comments from the surveys (e.g., page 130-132 of the appendices), have a look.
Being a long-term president of a struggling club was hard and intense... higher up administrators, who were all promise and no delivery
Too much power by Provincial Unions
NZR is widely criticised for being an old boys club who gives jobs to mates and ex-players
Too much focus on rugby credentials ahead of governance capability
PUs need to stop seeing themselves as 'owners' and start behaving as gardeners of community rugby, ensuring the best conditions to grow and thrive
Is anyone able to explain exactly how the PUs would control the Board with three of nine directors? Absent special conditions in the Constitution, with a decent Chair any well merited proposal will be voted through.
If there ARE such special conditions, the ACTUAL solution is to vote to remove such conditions.
@pakman said in NZR review:
Is anyone able to explain exactly how the PUs would control the Board with three of nine directors?
Do they have three with their proposal 2?
All they seem to be asking for is 3 members to have PU experience
They want to implement a model called Proposal 2 which would mean three of the nine directors have experience of being on a provincial board.
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@gt12 said in NZR review:
Cully said the quiet part out aloud:
We can't really have both a (professional) PU and Super rugby competition in such a small country. It's been coming since 1996.
Jamie Wall outlined the crux of the issue too, here:
The Pilkington Report's finding essentially recommended a loosening of provincial union (PU) grip on NZR governance. Proposal One, which is backed by the RPA, recommends that happening. Unsurprisingly, the PUs are not too keen on that and their Proposal Two comes down to them retaining their three automatic seats on the NZR board. So, it is pretty easy to see Proposal One as being for change and Proposal Two as being for maintaining the status quo.
It's predictable what will happen. The interesting part will be NZRPA's next step
@Duluth said in NZR review:
@gt12 said in NZR review:
Cully said the quiet part out aloud:
We can't really have both a (professional) PU and Super rugby competition in such a small country. It's been coming since 1996.
Jamie Wall outlined the crux of the issue too, here:
The Pilkington Report's finding essentially recommended a loosening of provincial union (PU) grip on NZR governance. Proposal One, which is backed by the RPA, recommends that happening. Unsurprisingly, the PUs are not too keen on that and their Proposal Two comes down to them retaining their three automatic seats on the NZR board. So, it is pretty easy to see Proposal One as being for change and Proposal Two as being for maintaining the status quo.
It's predictable what will happen. The interesting part will be NZRPA's next step
But has Jamie got things right? Do they want to retain their 3 seats? Or just have three members with PU experience?
Is this just more lies that the WRU Chair mentioned
What's this really about?
The Pilkington Report's finding essentially recommended a loosening of provincial union (PU) grip on NZR governance. Proposal One, which is backed by the RPA, recommends that happening. Unsurprisingly, the PUs are not too keen on that and their Proposal Two comes down to them retaining their three automatic seats on the NZR board. So, it is pretty easy to see Proposal One as being for change and Proposal Two as being for maintaining the status quo.And this from Pilkington. He must know the proposal 2 unions have disputed this. So why say it?
David Pilkington, author of the original report, made his prediction: "The votes are apportioned across the provincial unions based on how many affiliated teams they have, and therefore the bigger unions have a bigger say in the final outcome - and it is those bigger unions that have signalled that they don't want change, they want to preserve the status quo."
If this statement is not right it really badly undermines Pilkington. And the proposal 2 unions dispute this
I have little faith in the NZR Board to get to the bottom of these issues before the vote though
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Proposal 1 has been rejected - https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/350293746/live-new-zealand-rugby-special-general-meeting
As Mils put it on the Breakdown, NZ Rugby will be dead in four years because of this.
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From the Canterbury Chair It's not something we have dreamed up for our own interests,'' says Winchester. He says dairy giant Fonterra wouldn't have someone on their board who doesn't know about how to run a farm. what a terrible analogy. Boards are packed full of people who offer specific skills. Most people on the Fonterra board would have no idea how to operationally run a farm.
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@Duluth said in NZR review:
@gt12 said in NZR review:
Cully said the quiet part out aloud:
We can't really have both a (professional) PU and Super rugby competition in such a small country. It's been coming since 1996.
Jamie Wall outlined the crux of the issue too, here:
The Pilkington Report's finding essentially recommended a loosening of provincial union (PU) grip on NZR governance. Proposal One, which is backed by the RPA, recommends that happening. Unsurprisingly, the PUs are not too keen on that and their Proposal Two comes down to them retaining their three automatic seats on the NZR board. So, it is pretty easy to see Proposal One as being for change and Proposal Two as being for maintaining the status quo.
It's predictable what will happen. The interesting part will be NZRPA's next step
I'm fascinated to see.
This has been coming.
The Pilkington report laid out that it sees the political games of the PUs fltering into the boardroom where other key stakeholders don't get representation (e.g., Super franchises, players), and basically says that the PUs are misusing funds (redirecting may the term) to focus on high performance rather than community rugby (like, only 21% of their spend vs 59% on high performance).
Edit: BTW, if you haven't read the selected comments from the surveys (e.g., page 130-132 of the appendices), have a look.
Being a long-term president of a struggling club was hard and intense... higher up administrators, who were all promise and no delivery
Too much power by Provincial Unions
NZR is widely criticised for being an old boys club who gives jobs to mates and ex-players
Too much focus on rugby credentials ahead of governance capability
PUs need to stop seeing themselves as 'owners' and start behaving as gardeners of community rugby, ensuring the best conditions to grow and thrive
@gt12 said in NZR review:
The Pilkington report laid out that it sees the political games of the PUs fltering into the boardroom where other key stakeholders don't get representation (e.g., Super franchises, players), and basically says that the PUs are misusing funds (redirecting may the term) to focus on high performance rather than community rugby (like, only 21% of their spend vs 59% on high performance).
i think its a bit harsh to say that spending on high performance is misusing funds, until NZR has the balls to come out and say the NPC is no longer a important competition then i think trying to do well in it (short of overspending which some have)....doing well raises interest, attracts more sponsors and new players, more money in the door etc
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@gt12 said in NZR review:
The Pilkington report laid out that it sees the political games of the PUs fltering into the boardroom where other key stakeholders don't get representation (e.g., Super franchises, players), and basically says that the PUs are misusing funds (redirecting may the term) to focus on high performance rather than community rugby (like, only 21% of their spend vs 59% on high performance).
i think its a bit harsh to say that spending on high performance is misusing funds, until NZR has the balls to come out and say the NPC is no longer a important competition then i think trying to do well in it (short of overspending which some have)....doing well raises interest, attracts more sponsors and new players, more money in the door etc
@Kiwiwomble said in NZR review:
@gt12 said in NZR review:
The Pilkington report laid out that it sees the political games of the PUs fltering into the boardroom where other key stakeholders don't get representation (e.g., Super franchises, players), and basically says that the PUs are misusing funds (redirecting may the term) to focus on high performance rather than community rugby (like, only 21% of their spend vs 59% on high performance).
i think its a bit harsh to say that spending on high performance is misusing funds, until NZR has the balls to come out and say the NPC is no longer a important competition then i think trying to do well in it (short of overspending which some have)....doing well raises interest, attracts more sponsors and new players, more money in the door etc
NZRugby can't come out and say the NPC isn't an important competition unless it is directed to by the board... whose members will continue to have a strong interest in it being an important competition.
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@Kiwiwomble said in NZR review:
@gt12 said in NZR review:
The Pilkington report laid out that it sees the political games of the PUs fltering into the boardroom where other key stakeholders don't get representation (e.g., Super franchises, players), and basically says that the PUs are misusing funds (redirecting may the term) to focus on high performance rather than community rugby (like, only 21% of their spend vs 59% on high performance).
i think its a bit harsh to say that spending on high performance is misusing funds, until NZR has the balls to come out and say the NPC is no longer a important competition then i think trying to do well in it (short of overspending which some have)....doing well raises interest, attracts more sponsors and new players, more money in the door etc
NZRugby can't come out and say the NPC isn't an important competition unless it is directed to by the board... whose members will continue to have a strong interest in it being an important competition.
@SouthernMann we will just continue to bleed money unless something is done. The NPC is borderline professional these days with most provinces propped up by club players. Something needed to change today but unfortunately it hasn't. I feel our game will be in real trouble in 2-3 years time.
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@SouthernMann we will just continue to bleed money unless something is done. The NPC is borderline professional these days with most provinces propped up by club players. Something needed to change today but unfortunately it hasn't. I feel our game will be in real trouble in 2-3 years time.
@Canes4life said in NZR review:
The NPC is borderline professional these days with most provinces propped up by club players.
is it though?
Many of the players without a super gig earn buggar all for the NPC and then go back to whatever else they do, at best, it is semi-professional.
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That is resounding.
Unless someone has more info, I don't see a lot of difference in them. Insisting on 3 board members with PU experience is very different to representing a particular PU on the board.
I hate how the NPC has been undermined over the years by NZR. They have treated it shamefully and it's no surprise that it is a shadow of its former self.
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@SouthernMann we will just continue to bleed money unless something is done. The NPC is borderline professional these days with most provinces propped up by club players. Something needed to change today but unfortunately it hasn't. I feel our game will be in real trouble in 2-3 years time.
@Canes4life said in NZR review:
@SouthernMann we will just continue to bleed money unless something is done. The NPC is borderline professional these days with most provinces propped up by club players. Something needed to change today but unfortunately it hasn't. I feel our game will be in real trouble in 2-3 years time.
isn't club players getting to rep their union....kind of the whole point?
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@Canes4life said in NZR review:
@SouthernMann we will just continue to bleed money unless something is done. The NPC is borderline professional these days with most provinces propped up by club players. Something needed to change today but unfortunately it hasn't. I feel our game will be in real trouble in 2-3 years time.
isn't club players getting to rep their union....kind of the whole point?
@Kiwiwomble said in NZR review:
@Canes4life said in NZR review:
@SouthernMann we will just continue to bleed money unless something is done. The NPC is borderline professional these days with most provinces propped up by club players. Something needed to change today but unfortunately it hasn't. I feel our game will be in real trouble in 2-3 years time.
isn't club players getting to rep their union....kind of the whole point?
Yes. But investing in a long-term high performance programme? Or should it just be letting the club season run and picking the best 30 players?
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@Kiwiwomble said in NZR review:
@Canes4life said in NZR review:
@SouthernMann we will just continue to bleed money unless something is done. The NPC is borderline professional these days with most provinces propped up by club players. Something needed to change today but unfortunately it hasn't. I feel our game will be in real trouble in 2-3 years time.
isn't club players getting to rep their union....kind of the whole point?
Yes. But investing in a long-term high performance programme? Or should it just be letting the club season run and picking the best 30 players?
@SouthernMann as i say, i can see the attraction too trying to win (other than some glory), winning begets winning often and that attracts money which you can easily convince yourself is good for the game in the region
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@Kiwiwomble said in NZR review:
@Canes4life said in NZR review:
@SouthernMann we will just continue to bleed money unless something is done. The NPC is borderline professional these days with most provinces propped up by club players. Something needed to change today but unfortunately it hasn't. I feel our game will be in real trouble in 2-3 years time.
isn't club players getting to rep their union....kind of the whole point?
Yes. But investing in a long-term high performance programme? Or should it just be letting the club season run and picking the best 30 players?
@SouthernMann said in NZR review:
long-term high performance programme
isnt this in the interest of NZ Rugby as a whole, especially as the NPC loses it's significance?
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@SouthernMann as i say, i can see the attraction too trying to win (other than some glory), winning begets winning often and that attracts money which you can easily convince yourself is good for the game in the region
@Kiwiwomble said in NZR review:
@SouthernMann as i say, i can see the attraction too trying to win (other than some glory), winning begets winning often and that attracts money which you can easily convince yourself is good for the game in the region
It depends. Wellington for example, very sucessful on the field, absolutely bleeds money off it. It has a high spend with high performance
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@SouthernMann said in NZR review:
long-term high performance programme
isnt this in the interest of NZ Rugby as a whole, especially as the NPC loses it's significance?
@taniwharugby said in NZR review:
@SouthernMann said in NZR review:
long-term high performance programme
isnt this in the interest of NZ Rugby as a whole, especially as the NPC loses it's significance?
i think the argument is an expensive high performance program for an increasingly insignificant competition (which kills me to say) is viewed as poor use of funds
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@SouthernMann said in NZR review:
long-term high performance programme
isnt this in the interest of NZ Rugby as a whole, especially as the NPC loses it's significance?
@taniwharugby said in NZR review:
@SouthernMann said in NZR review:
long-term high performance programme
isnt this in the interest of NZ Rugby as a whole, especially as the NPC loses it's significance?
But 20 high performance units is way too many.
